Before and after this point
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ect-II-arrival&p=464761&viewfull=1#post464761
The end of the CD
- Thread starter KeithR
- Start date
Before and after this point
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ect-II-arrival&p=464761&viewfull=1#post464761
Thanks for the link. This will give people opportunity to read for themselves that I didn't actually say what you claim that I said.
(Hint: the difference may be judged to be small, but it is highly significant.)
Empirical Audio
Industry Expert
People tend to blame everything on "RF" noise or EMI etc... The reality is that very few audio components are susceptible to EMI, and most don't generate much EMI either because they have to FCC pass emissions testing.
Most of the noise attributed to "RF" is what is picked-up by the loop antennas of ground-loops in the systems. This is not really EMI susceptibility, it's voltage imposed on these loops, which appears in the signals, mostly single-ended signals, but also differential and balanced. Eliminate these ground-loops, and you will eliminate the noise.
I have no ground-loops in my system and I have extremely low noise floor, even though I have burglar alarm scanners on always, cell-phones on always and WIFI on always.
You can even eliminate ground-loops from your analog connections with this, and it will convert SE to Bal and Bal to SE if you need this:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/final-drive
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
I know when my wife gets grumpy I blame it on the RF/EMI...seems to work for me.
@Paul, Pb Blimp & @andromedaaudio,
Thank you for the camaraderie, much appreciated. My reaction was connected to other important posts that you were involved too and part of my core beliefs and not so much audio, anyway don't want to derail this thread but thank you!
Back to the topic, my transport is almost 20 years old and on it's last leg and overdue for some surgery this thread got me looking around harder but finding something "better" is difficult. I guess building transports and players requires a combination of skill sets. You need an excellent mechanical engineer with deep knowledge of digital to create something special and there aren't many around like that. So I'm deciding between sticking with the CEC and just upgrading the DAC or going with a new CD player. Got a couple on the radar probably to get over and try.
david
Thank you for the camaraderie, much appreciated. My reaction was connected to other important posts that you were involved too and part of my core beliefs and not so much audio, anyway don't want to derail this thread but thank you!
Back to the topic, my transport is almost 20 years old and on it's last leg and overdue for some surgery this thread got me looking around harder but finding something "better" is difficult. I guess building transports and players requires a combination of skill sets. You need an excellent mechanical engineer with deep knowledge of digital to create something special and there aren't many around like that. So I'm deciding between sticking with the CEC and just upgrading the DAC or going with a new CD player. Got a couple on the radar probably to get over and try.
david
David, I’m 100% biased, but you cannot go wrong with the Eera Tentation.
Talk to JackD201 and Albert Von Schweikert about it.
Albert considers it the best cdp out there, bar none. I concur.
It has about the best analog-like flow, texture and tonal discrimination you could hope for.
Talk to JackD201 and Albert Von Schweikert about it.
Albert considers it the best cdp out there, bar none. I concur.
It has about the best analog-like flow, texture and tonal discrimination you could hope for.
$13k gets you the tried and tested model. But yes, they have a couple of new transports and dacs. I believe Jack is due to audition them soon.
Eera does something I’ve never heard from any other digital, more akin to great analog.
That is, every disc/album sounds different from the next, just like lps. There is a minimum of digital homogeneity imposed on playback. If this isn’t the very definition of neutrality, I don’t know what is. Flow and fluidity right up there too, and texture is palpable.
Try it Dave, and tell me I’m wrong LOL.
Eera does something I’ve never heard from any other digital, more akin to great analog.
That is, every disc/album sounds different from the next, just like lps. There is a minimum of digital homogeneity imposed on playback. If this isn’t the very definition of neutrality, I don’t know what is. Flow and fluidity right up there too, and texture is palpable.
Try it Dave, and tell me I’m wrong LOL.
Francisco,
you like to make me work a bit, ok. there are many to choose from for both digital recordings and analog recordings.
an obvious one is the Reference Recordings 'Arnold Overtures' which had twin mic feeds; one to analog tape, and the other to 176/24 digital. I have the original Lp, the Tape Project 15ips, 1/4" tape, the 176/24 HRx and the CD. this is not a top choice for the music or performance, although it's fine. but it is a truth machine for reality checking of formats and an excellent recording both digital and analog.
game, set, match to the Lp and tape. more real....greater note development and textural nuance. greater jump factor and scale. energizes the whole room. of course, don't waste your time with the recent Lp pressing 'mastercut' from the digital files....it sucks. the CD is better. :-(
get the original tape sourced Lp pressing.
for examples of great digital recordings, i'd choose the Ilia Itin, Debussy Preludes, in native quad dsd. fantastic grand piano recording. Wave Kinetics did this one both in Native Quad and also 1/2" 30ips tape from the same mic feed. I don't have a tape copy 'yet'......but the Quad files are fantastic.
another great digital recording is a recent dxd (352/24) recording from the Challenge Classic label, Debussy, Le Mer/Ravel, Ma Mere i'Oye conducted by Het Gelders Orkest. exceptional flow and sense of space and scale.....which really plays to the whole feeling of the music..
both of those digital recordings tic every box for what you might want from a classical recording. and about 50-60% of my listening is to digital classical recordings. these are two very good ones. there are many more like them, and more coming all the time.
for two more top recordings on vinyl, I will choose one classical, and one jazz.
the classical is a Cello Concreto by Dutilleux, featuring Rostropovitch; EMI ASD 3145, 33rpm Lp.
I've written about this one before. it is a magical romp (breaks all the rules perfectly) and will blow your mind if your vinyl front end and system is up to it. the recent addition of the Taiko Tana treatment to my Herzan TS-140 (under the NVS) has taken this gem to an even higher degree of suspension of disbelief. I don't have the musical vocabulary to even approach describing what my ears are hearing, so I will transcribe from the back liner notes about the first movement;
in any case, I can tell you this recording has so much information that each small step of my system these last few years has revealed another layer of mystical journey. this goes musical, experiential places no digital can reach in terms of holographic ethereal renderings. 4 years ago it just sounded like so much noise to me. I could not get very far into the listening. now my system is out of the way and it's come alive.
the last vinyl recording is a direct to disc from a bunch of Brits with a Dixiland Jazz Band recorded by a bunch of Germans in 1979 on the Jeton Lable. The Chris Barber Band, 'Come Friday', the cut I love is 'St. Louis Blues' on side 2. it's about 10 minutes, has a trombone solo, a guitar solo, then the whole band joins in for a rousing finish. this music drips with palpable reality. the whole performance envelope of the trombone and guitar is captured, and the meatiness of everything is quite breathtaking.
both these vinyl examples (to my ears, in my system) take suspension of disbelief to another place beyond. totally immersive. disarmingly real and engaging.
the 30,000 foot view is that top level digital does everything you might want......but top level vinyl with the better pressings and music just goes beyond if you need to do that. it's just more.
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May be i ll open up shop in belgium , in a nice historic house and become a dealer of nice tube equipment besides my own design speakers , have some tapemachines ready for you to compare if you want
You can bring as much CD players as you want , i use a meitner MA 2 myself
Just got my Octave RE320 amp. Stunning sound of orchestral massed strings on my new speakers, just stunning. Silky smooth and fluid (here's one for Bonzo), superb resolution, surprisingly like what I am used to live (even though it will never be the exact same of course). Reminded me of my last concert with the Boston Symphony and Stravinsky's Firebird, experienced from a very good seat.
Have rarely heard such superb sound of orchestral strings from analog (top vinyl, can't speak for tape), even though on some occasions I did. Sorry, that's how I perceive it, can't do anything about what my ears tell me. And that from plain ole Redbook (Simaudio Moon transport --> MIT digital cable (AES/EBU) --> Schiit Yggdrasil DAC). Super-excited about what I hear.
Digital has arrived.
I can see your point , i agree octave is extremely good tube gear , i ihave a dealer nearby , seem to be very linear tubeamps with exxcelent bassperformance .
Orchestral work on vinyl /cd , i dont have good orchestral work really on tape , may be somebody can recommend something (tape project may be), but cd is very linear at the bottom so it might indeed produce more of the swell of an orchestra , dont know how much tape rolls of at the bottom .
But piano or speech, tape is miles ahead the diff is not subtle , i dont compare to vinyl at home since i dont have it anymore .
Ps i copied this from mikes above post i think he sums it up pretty good : more real....greater note development and textural nuance. greater jump factor and scale. energizes the whole room
I would add more micro / macro dynamics , once you ve heard it you know cd is a flawed medium in a sense (IMO)
However not all tapes are good there is quit a bit of quality difference there as well ,just talking about my best recordings here on tape
Orchestral work on vinyl /cd , i dont have good orchestral work really on tape , may be somebody can recommend something (tape project may be), but cd is very linear at the bottom so it might indeed produce more of the swell of an orchestra , dont know how much tape rolls of at the bottom .
But piano or speech, tape is miles ahead the diff is not subtle , i dont compare to vinyl at home since i dont have it anymore .
Ps i copied this from mikes above post i think he sums it up pretty good : more real....greater note development and textural nuance. greater jump factor and scale. energizes the whole room
I would add more micro / macro dynamics , once you ve heard it you know cd is a flawed medium in a sense (IMO)
However not all tapes are good there is quit a bit of quality difference there as well ,just talking about my best recordings here on tape
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I would like to get some mastertape copies of authentic sound he plays clavichord and records on a refurbished Studer A 80 by andreas kuhn , i send him an email , i think clavichord is an instrument where tape can excell /will sound awesome ..... DYNAMICS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_7Uwdj-nTQ&list=RD0_7Uwdj-nTQ&t=121
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_7Uwdj-nTQ&list=RD0_7Uwdj-nTQ&t=121
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Great to hear you also have good experience with Octave. Sorry, should have been more specific. I meant more violins, violas, perhaps celli. Double basses don't work as well in my system -- yet or if at all. I'll find out when I get my dual JL Audio Fathom 112v2 subs, replacing my REL Storm III which has very tight bass but not so much textural resolution and depth. But perhaps a monitor/sub combo (I have Reference 3A Reflector monitors) is simply disadvantaged in that respect, while it has so many positives that I am addicted to. My combo does also rock very well, but orchestral is something where a high-quality full range speaker wins, also in terms of headroom to play loud (comparing for mid-sized rooms like mine; in large rooms most monitors are lost anyway).
The massed violins on digital now have a lot of this elusive not just silky, but also airy quality that is just so rarely heard in home reproduction. I find it interesting, because for decades massed violins had always been a glaring weak point of digital, and in particular on Redbook CD. My current DAC clearly outshines all the ones I had so far on massed violins, I know that from comparisons even before I had this resolution.
As far as the swell of the orchestra from the bottom goes, I have heard extremely good, convincing performance from top vinyl in a system with Magico M Project speakers. No complaints about analog there, for sure.
Can't compare to tape, but I find micro / macro dynamics from my current CD set up with the Octave amp in the system extremely good, also compared to my live exeriences (while again, dynamic headroom on large orchestra in terms of ability to play clean is limited with my speakers, even at lower than realistic levels). Yesterday I heard some explosive dynamics as well as subtle dynamic differences on a six-player percussion track that gave me goose bumps and made my hair stand up. Same with music for ensemble of 23 players (brass, strings, woodwinds, percussion).
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Who knows maybe its also my room causing problems for CD playback to shine .
Hope to compare when i move to the other place, it will have different architecture then my current concrete flat.
My point was basically that i think digital is at its max
Im not saying its a bad medium but progress is in tape.
What you also have to consider is that im listening to actual master tapes , the ultra analoge audios l have are not and one can hear that
Hope to compare when i move to the other place, it will have different architecture then my current concrete flat.
My point was basically that i think digital is at its max
Im not saying its a bad medium but progress is in tape.
What you also have to consider is that im listening to actual master tapes , the ultra analoge audios l have are not and one can hear that
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Sorry for the typos im on the move. .
Part in of my problem could indeed be that cd's are copies of copies with degeneration and what not
Part in of my problem could indeed be that cd's are copies of copies with degeneration and what not
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Well its not so hard , buy an ampex or a Telefunken , ampex should be easy to get overthere and contact the state or national broadcasting agency they might have tons of unused master tapes interviews whatever.
Its fun
Its fun
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