The end of the CD

[andromedaaudio]

The answer is already in there ;

" he was struck with the idea of digitizing sound when trying to improve the sound quality of FM broadcasts. Nakajima thought that by using digital"

Nakajima thought, ...... SONY then probably recognized the enourmous business / profitoppurtinities and stated Digital is better

I have a whole box (30 tapes ) full off per 528 broadcasting tape filled with music speech interviews so i can compare, the speech on those tapes is just about the most natural sound i have on a medium .
I love /used to love FM radio too

Brings me to another point i think Per 528 studiotape sounds better then any other tape i have

 

[Al M.]

SONY and Phillips screwed up SACD because of their copy protection schemes. Hadn't they learned from Betamax? If they left it an open protocol we would not be having this "discussion." Ok, they would have screwed it up another way.

Really? There wasn't broader market acceptance because of copy protection? No, there wasn't broader market acceptance because most people didn't perceive a greater sound quality, or were simply happy with what they had with CD, and didn't want to buy a new player either.

 

[Bso]

Really? There wasn't broader market acceptance because of copy protection? No, there wasn't broader market acceptance because most people didn't perceive a greater sound quality, or were simply happy with what they had with CD, and didn't want to buy a new player either.

Aren't we both correct? These are just additive factors, not exclusive. Another : Why should I throw out my perfectly good recording studio to go SACD with very few suppliers?

 

[andromedaaudio]

From the same sony page, never heard of any interest for that recording machine apart from mechanics maybe :

In September 1977, the PCM processor was marketed as the PCM-1. Although it had to be used in combination with a VCR, it was the world's first product to be commercialized that enabled digital recording and playback. The PCM-1, which was generally intended for home-use, was priced at 480,000 yen.

Despite its high price, the PCM-1 was praised for its sound clarity. A first time listener of the PCM-1 likened its clear, digital sound to removing a thick layer of clothing from analog sound. At the same time, however, the PCM-1 drew much criticism.

and also on the sony website

Audio data is converted to binary digital signals, and recorded on the surface of a digital audio disc as an array of ones and zeros. When played back, digital signals are converted to electronic signals as a light beam reads them. Signal error correction is a function whereby the machine rectifies a situation in which a bit has been incorrectly read. Signal error correction is especially important in optical discs because, compared to tape a greater number of erroneous readings are made during playback.

 

[ddk]

No apology needed and no offense taken, my reply was in response to your comment about “truth” not audio. You probably saw the forum forwarded email before it was deleted, I didn’t think it was that bad. There’s value to knowing people beyond vague screen avatars even a first name willl affect responses.

Good weekend to you too.

david

Hi ddk,

Firstly, sorry you seemed to take offence at my comments. None was intended. I’m trying to say more with less these days, but the internet seems to take more with less as an opening to infer things not intended (i.e. “I have extrapolated many straw men from your argument and am enraged you believe these awful things you didn’t say…”). Again, apologies if you were offended.

Secondly, to try and better attempt to clarify my comments, the title of this thread is “The death of CD”. It’s a statement that will be valued differently depending on the position of the individual and the perception one has relative to their position - which is why this thread is already 220 posts deep.

In post #201 I attached an image I personally find useful when discussing topics of this nature, and indeed almost any topic. In fact, you summed it up eloquently when you said “I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just sharing where I'm at based on experience and preference; it's my truth and not the ultimate.” Hey, me too…! I believe most of us are.

And that was my point. We all have different perspectives on the merits of CD transports versus file playback relative to our experience and preference. Yours thus far has been underwhelming, and mine was too until I heard a server that really impressed me (the EVO 432).

However, I think it’s also true to say that when we have significant investment or enthusiasm about a particular product/topology/implementation, we tend to articulate our perspective in ways that will sometimes be perceived by those who do not share our perspective as… “hype”. A person who has been working with and building and modifying file-based playback hardware and software for a decade will likely declare a small breakthrough as significant, and perhaps in language that will be perceived as hyperbolic - especially by those that do not share the same position/experience/value.

One guy’s “Hey, we’ve updated our software to v2.01 - it’s awesome!” is another guy’s “Wow, you think that’s progress…?”

My comment re: the American Sound (which I’ve already expressed my appreciation for on rockitman’s thread, and specifically, the motor controller which interests me a lot (1)) was not - not, not, not - to denigrate your achievements. It was to say that after 993 posts, those who are not invested in vinyl playback, or simply do not share enthusiasm for an all-out SOTA implementation of a very old technology, are just as likely to offer up the same conclusions… “Wow, you think that’s progress…?” My own preference remains for a turntable first released in 1954, and I’m convinced there’s still much about that particular design that has validity despite “progress” having been made since.

At the risk of repeating myself and to state the obvious - and I think, right now, I’m not doing any but that - progress will be viewed differently depending on each person’s individual view-point at that moment. One person’s ethernet is another person’s American Sound. That was my point - nothing more, nothing less.

Thirdly, I don’t know you, and you don’t know me (“nameless 853guy”). I’d like to suggest me knowing you personally and you knowing me personally is irrelevant to us discussing this topic - or any topic - here. My observations will always be contextualised and limited solely to my own experience and the way I perceive that experience in time, just like you. I may not have owned anywhere near the number of turntables you have, nor possess your extensive knowledge of them, but I hope that you’d consider a simple exchange in perspectives sufficient without needing to be personalised and turned into a pissing contest. That I personally don’t believe in “experts” as I’ve already stated doesn’t mean I can’t learn something from someone of lesser experience - indeed, my children teach my valuable and profound lessons about life every day. I mean, some days, my cat does.

Have a great weekend,

853guy


(1) http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...table-Argh-!!!&p=470088&viewfull=1#post470088

 

[Al M.]

Question then , who pays/paid those engineers to do research in the first place ?
AFAIK earning money is the main goal in a business not improve soundquality per se ,in the musicbusiness thats not serving the audiophile market thats a too small part .

The insight of the Nyquist theorem, which states full representation of a bandwidth limited signal by a sample frequency double the highest frequency in it, was not paid for.

Unless you include the salary of Nyquist. But then, each scientist earns money while practicing science. Everybody's got to live from something.

Apparently you cannot help but see history skewed through your analog-colored glasses. Not that I have anything against analog (I love the best examples of it), but I also have very much respect for actual historical facts.

And the facts are, digital theory is not all about business. It's about science first and foremost -- and more and more it has proven valid the more time goes on and practical implementations improve.

 

[andromedaaudio]

May be i ll open up shop in belgium , in a nice historic house and become a dealer of nice tube equipment besides my own design speakers , have some tapemachines ready for you to compare if you want
You can bring as much CD players as you want , i use a meitner MA 2 myself

 

[Al M.]

May be i ll open up shop in belgium , in a nice historic house and become a dealer of nice tube equipment besides my own design speakers , have some tapemachines ready for you to compare if you want
You can bring as much CD players as you want , i use a meittner MA 2 myself

Can't talk about tape, but I have done the comparison top vinyl vs. digital, thank you very much. No clear winner for me. Just a few years ago I would have answered differently, in favor of analog, even though I am committed to digital as the sole source in my own system.

 

[bonzo75]

Can't talk about tape, but I have done the comparison top vinyl vs. digital, thank you very much. No clear winner for me.

Well, given that you couldn't hear flow and liquidity live, that's not a surprise

 

[Al M.]

Well, given that you couldn't hear flow and liquidity live, that's not a surprise

You forgot the emoji

 

[bonzo75]

You forgot the emoji

I paraphrased your statement that did not have one

 

[Al M.]

I paraphrased your statement that did not have one

So you're serious? That's funny.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Can't talk about tape, but I have done the comparison top vinyl vs. digital, thank you very much. No clear winner for me. Just a few years ago I would have answered differently, in favor of analog, even though I am committed to digital as the sole source in my own system.

I've put my money where my mouth is regarding taking digital dead serious. it has every advantage it can possibly have in my system. but when we play good pressings on top level vinyl playback gear there is a clear winner. it's not a case of good and bad, or right and wrong, but of degrees of greater suspension of disbelief. it crosses the threshold of reality to a clearly higher level. it's undeniable.

 

[bonzo75]

So you're serious? That's funny.

You said that on Mike's MSB thread.

 

[microstrip]

I've put my money where my mouth is regarding taking digital dead serious. it has every advantage it can possibly have in my system. but when we play good pressings on top level vinyl playback gear there is a clear winner. it's not a case of good and bad, or right and wrong, but of degrees of greater suspension of disbelief. it crosses the threshold of reality to a clearly higher level. it's undeniable.

Mike,
A simple question - can you tell us three top analog recordings and three top digital recordings (if possible stating resolution) that feed such conclusion when played in your system?

 

[Pb Blimp]

Does that solely apply to products of a digital nature, or are 550-pound steel turntables potentially subject to the same?

Again, perspective is likely to determine how we articulate "the truth".

Best to you both,

853guy

removed, inappropriate language. Other green segments in this post removed for same reason)! This is the most ***argument you've put forward yet nameless 853guy, and there have been many recently! Perspective is yours to change, "Truth" isn't! Unless of course one is a ***! Then again you already posted your declaration of *** with this comment.

"In an area of rapid technological development, it's fairly normal for every new iteration to be claimed superior over its predecessor. Such is progress."

If you have the experience and the insight I'll be happy to discuss the validity of 50 - 70 year old turntable designs and listen to your arguments against them.
david

Hi ddk,

Firstly, sorry you seemed to take offence at my comments. None was intended. I’m trying to say more with less these days, but the internet seems to take more with less as an opening to infer things not intended (i.e. “I have extrapolated many straw men from your argument and am enraged you believe these awful things you didn’t say…”). Again, apologies if you were offended.

Secondly, to try and better attempt to clarify my comments, the title of this thread is “The death of CD”. It’s a statement that will be valued differently depending on the position of the individual and the perception one has relative to their position - which is why this thread is already 220 posts deep.

In post #201 I attached an image I personally find useful when discussing topics of this nature, and indeed almost any topic. In fact, you summed it up eloquently when you said “I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just sharing where I'm at based on experience and preference; it's my truth and not the ultimate.” Hey, me too…! I believe most of us are.

And that was my point. We all have different perspectives on the merits of CD transports versus file playback relative to our experience and preference. Yours thus far has been underwhelming, and mine was too until I heard a server that really impressed me (the EVO 432).

However, I think it’s also true to say that when we have significant investment or enthusiasm about a particular product/topology/implementation, we tend to articulate our perspective in ways that will sometimes be perceived by those who do not share our perspective as… “hype”. A person who has been working with and building and modifying file-based playback hardware and software for a decade will likely declare a small breakthrough as significant, and perhaps in language that will be perceived as hyperbolic - especially by those that do not share the same position/experience/value.

One guy’s “Hey, we’ve updated our software to v2.01 - it’s awesome!” is another guy’s “Wow, you think that’s progress…?”

My comment re: the American Sound (which I’ve already expressed my appreciation for on rockitman’s thread, and specifically, the motor controller which interests me a lot (1)) was not - not, not, not - to denigrate your achievements. It was to say that after 993 posts, those who are not invested in vinyl playback, or simply do not share enthusiasm for an all-out SOTA implementation of a very old technology, are just as likely to offer up the same conclusions… “Wow, you think that’s progress…?” My own preference remains for a turntable first released in 1954, and I’m convinced there’s still much about that particular design that has validity despite “progress” having been made since.

At the risk of repeating myself and to state the obvious - and I think, right now, I’m not doing any but that - progress will be viewed differently depending on each person’s individual view-point at that moment. One person’s ethernet is another person’s American Sound. That was my point - nothing more, nothing less.

Thirdly, I don’t know you, and you don’t know me (“nameless 853guy”). I’d like to suggest me knowing you personally and you knowing me personally is irrelevant to us discussing this topic - or any topic - here. My observations will always be contextualised and limited solely to my own experience and the way I perceive that experience in time, just like you. I may not have owned anywhere near the number of turntables you have, nor possess your extensive knowledge of them, but I hope that you’d consider a simple exchange in perspectives sufficient without needing to be personalised and turned into a pissing contest. That I personally don’t believe in “experts” as I’ve already stated doesn’t mean I can’t learn something from someone of lesser experience - indeed, my children teach my valuable and profound lessons about life every day. I mean, some days, my cat does.

Have a great weekend,

853guy


(1) http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...table-Argh-!!!&p=470088&viewfull=1#post470088

First regarding experts, some people know a lot more than others about a particular subject; to ignore this is ignorant. Whether you want to call them experts, authorities, soothe sayers or whatever, no "study" is going to refute the prima facie evidence in this respect. Not discriminately seeking counsel from such people is to your own detrimente.

Second regarding perception, the problem with 853's cylinder analogy is not that people see the same thing and perceive a difference (that's a simple reality we all understand); it's that some people see the same thing and claim a difference knowing there is none. That is a lack of integrity not perception. I think ddk was simply pointing this out as "hype" and 853 responded by charging ddk with that actual crime. Not a nice thing. (Hype does originate from the word hyperbola after all.)

I can see ddk's frustration with the exchange, as summarized below, even after the lengthy response from 853. I think we still have a lack of perception (or something worse ).

(I apologize for using straw men.)

1) 853 argues that what we all do on forums is to some degree superfluous because, effectively, no one knows everything (there are no experts) and our personal failings (lack of perception) blind us from the truth (our opinions are flawed).

2) These comments were for the most part reacted to with a big yawn. Maybe some validity; maybe some condescension; maybe some lack of purpose; but my sense was kind of.....whatever.

3) Then 853 kicks ddk square in the shin.

4) ddk expresses frustration and defends his his life's work.

Here's the odd part to me:

5) 853 responds by giving a false apology for his original comments but not the kick in the shins. In my world a false apology is one that further indicts the offended by blaming the victim's hurt feelings on the victims failing. In many cases it is even more offensive than the original offense. Example:

False-- I am sorry if "you" were offended by my action. Read: if you weren't flawed you wouldn't have been.
Sincere-- I am sorry "I" offended you. Read: I did a bad thing.

6) Then 853 proceeds by again explaining his original thesis and largely ignoring ddk's shin.

It seems ddk is seeing a square and 853 a circle.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The difference is that DDK/david redesigned /codesigned a seemingly state of the art or at least extremely good turntable .

credit to who deserves credit

 

[Pb Blimp]

The difference is that DDK/david redesigned /codesigned a seemingly state of the art or at least extremely good turntable .

credit to who deserves credit

This was largely my point.

 

[Al M.]

You said that on Mike's MSB thread.

Hardly the point.

(Apart from the fact that you don't reproduced accurately what I said. You can look it up, if you desperately want to do so.}

 

[Al M.]

Example:

False-- I am sorry if "you" were offended by my action. Read: if you weren't flawed you wouldn't have been.
Sincere-- I am sorry "I" offended you. Read: I did a bad thing.

Without going into detail on the other points in your post, I would say that sometimes it would be the honest thing to say "I am sorry if you were offended by my action", even though that statement might be perceived as offensive. To apologize when there is nothing to objectively apologize for, just in order to make peace, is insincere even if sometimes judged to be beneficial to relationships. Not that I have never done the latter myself, BTW.

(This is only a comment about the principle, NOT about what happened specifically between David and 853guy, to which at this point I am rather neutral.)