The Fremer lays an ostrich egg thread

[MylesBAstor]

I remember when MF wrote a similar review on some Bryston amps a while back, to the same result, and I've heard those amps sound somewhat thin on numerous occasion, yet I've heard them sound spectacular driving Magnepans, especially the 20.1s.

Yeah what is that about? I head the same thing 15 years ago too with Bryston and MG3as. You'd think that if the amps sounded thin, they'd be unbearable with the Maggies. Maybe they're padding the tweeter more? There's something synergistic going on there since it's not the speaker load. Could it just be a power thing that help the Maggies open up?

 

[A.wayne]

I do find Brystons amps to (had 4 b's)sound thin and unmusical , i have not heard the latest generation, so my comments are not about them and it was not unusual for reviews to be written by the manufacturer ...

Maybe Fremer is bringing back editorial attack ...

 

[Tonepub]

I just don't think it's worth getting all pissy about either way. It's only music and hifi, it's not like we're racing to save the world from an asteroid collision. Wait, that's a different movie.

 

[Andre Marc]

I just don't think it's worth getting all pissy about either way. It's only music and hifi, it's not like we're racing to save the world from an asteroid collision. Wait, that's a different movie.

Well said Jeff...!

 

[Andre Marc]

I do find Brystons amps to (had 4 b's)sound thin and unmusical , i have not heard the latest generation, so my comments are not about them and it was not unusual for reviews to be written by the manufacturer ...

Maybe Fremer is bringing back editorial attack ...

I think you make a lot of statements you cannot back up. I have reviewed 5 Bryston products and no one wrote them but me.

Secondly, their amps did not sound thin to me..just a bit dry on top, just like Mikey said.

 

[Tonepub]

Come to think of it, I just reviewed their phono stage and it was excellent.

It all depends on your perspective. I know plenty of people that like things to sound as neutral as possible and others
that enjoy nothing but resolution to the point of pain for me, but that's what they like.

I always feel our job as a reviewer is merely to describe the product as well as we can, so that it can help our readers
decide what to put on their short list.

It's too bad we can't have you all over to hear our systems. That way, you'd know what we like and what we listen to.
Then it would be easier to decide if you agree with us or not. Equipment lists help, but don't tell the whole story.

 

[amirm]

The talk about Bryston amp is ironic because it is one of the few amps I have seen that in blind testing had no color added to its input! This is from Swedish LTS group which has tested dozens of amps this way using real speaker loads (they take out the amplifier gain and then AB switch to its input and see if anyone can detect a difference).

 

[Fast/Forward]

The talk about Bryston amp is ironic because it is one of the few amps I have seen that in blind testing had no color added to its input! This is from Swedish LTS group which has tested dozens of amps this way using real speaker loads (they take out the amplifier gain and then AB switch to its input and see if anyone can detect a difference).

Wish I was Swedish! I've own a Bryston 3B that is about 16 years past it's warranty and a 3BST and have found that there is a "house" sound signature. After stepping out of an elevator at a Toronto audio show (10-12 years ago), I told my ex that the sound we heard was from a Bryston amp. She was quite quick in challenging my statement but lost the bet when we went into the room and saw the Bryston amp driving a PMC speaker (new to me). The 3Bs were a little smoother in the highs when compared to a 4B.

 

[microstrip]

The talk about Bryston amp is ironic because it is one of the few amps I have seen that in blind testing had no color added to its input! This is from Swedish LTS group which has tested dozens of amps this way using real speaker loads (they take out the amplifier gain and then AB switch to its input and see if anyone can detect a difference).

Can you supply a link to these tests? I have seen references to the LTS tests and would like to know more about them.

 

[amirm]

Can you supply a link to these tests? I have seen references to the LTS tests and would like to know more about them.

They have completely wiped that data from their web site. The only info is deep into the forums now.

Some fragments do remain though. Here is the general write-up including the speaker load: http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm

A bit more on the methodology: http://translate.google.com/transla...0%9D&hl=en&rlz=1C1SNNT_enUS374US375&prmd=ivns

And the Byrston 14B review I talked about: http://www.4audio.rs/upload/File/Bryston/Bryston review 49.pdf. This includes fair bit about their testing.

 

[Mosin]

I'm sure most of the reviewers around here can appreciate Mike Fremer's situation.

First, he is expected to be completely original with each new review, which are to be very entertaining and enlightening. Then, he gets accused of being bought off, not being able to hear, and reviewing only the most esoteric stuff in the world. Next, he is accused of never giving a bad review. But, when he does say something that someone out in the world construes as being somehow negative, he gets slammed right and left. It happened when he happened to mention his distaste for SET speakers. Now, it has happened again.

No worries...

All this current unpleasantness will soon be forgotten, and the uncomfortable cycle of Mr. bought-off, never giving a bad review, only the esoteric, Fremer will start all over again.

I respect the man, and I wouldn't have his job!





(Edited for typos.)

 

[rbbert]

It does seem that Maggie and Bryston have often exhibited together at shows

 

[mep]

I'm sure most of the reviewers around here can appreciate Mike Fremer's situation.

First, he is expected to be completely original with each new review, which are to be very entertaining and enlightening. Then, he gets accused of being bought off, not being able to hear, and reviewing only the most esoteric stuff in the world. Next, he is accused of never giving a bad review. But, we he does say something that someone out in the world construes as being somehow negative, he gets slammed right and left. It happened when he happened to mention his distaste for SET speakers. Now, it is happened again.

No worries...
All this current unpleasantness will soon be forgotten, and the uncomfortable cycle of Mr. bought-off, never giving a bad review, only the esoteric, Fremer will start all over again.

I respect the man, and I wouldn't have his job!

Mosin-All good and valid points you made. I think I started off by saying that for those that say TAS and Stereophile never give bad reviews to check out this month's SP and the Fremer review of the ML was the main factor for that statement. Fremer is a handy whooping boy for lots of people. And it's not that I agree with everything he says (but then, who do you ever agree with 100% of the time?), but I never considered him less than honest and willing to stick his neck out and take blind listening tests and he has shown a remarkable ability to pick out the correct objects under test.

 

[amirm]

I think the issue here is that he didn't find fault with any random piece of equipment. He found fault with something that when given the explanation of how it works, would prompt him to say it is not good. The notion that squarewaves can produce analog sound is just as foreign to some as it is in reproduction of music using digital sampling. As I noted earlier, even I had to be careful to not fall victim to do this when I did my set of comparisons.

If had found problems with say, Mark's amplifier, then he would be vindicated as far as writing something bad. As it is, this one doesn't count in my book.

 

[mep]

I’m not sure I follow your logic here Amir. When Fremer made his comments about how the ML amp sounded, I’m pretty sure had hadn’t seen the measurements. Can you clarify what you meant about amps reproducing square waves? Even though music isn’t comprised of square waves, for some reason(s) square waves have always been used to test amplifiers.

And yes, I do think that people tend to get defensive if not downright prickly when their baby is getting trashed by either a review or the audiophile community. It’s only natural. No one wants to own or sell a component that has a reputation (right or wrong) of sounding bad for all of the usual audiophile sins.

 

[A.wayne]

Come to think of it, I just reviewed their phono stage and it was excellent.

It all depends on your perspective. I know plenty of people that like things to sound as neutral as possible and others
that enjoy nothing but resolution to the point of pain for me, but that's what they like.

I always feel our job as a reviewer is merely to describe the product as well as we can, so that it can help our readers
decide what to put on their short list.

It's too bad we can't have you all over to hear our systems. That way, you'd know what we like and what we listen to.
Then it would be easier to decide if you agree with us or not. Equipment lists help, but don't tell the whole story.

My Bryston comment was based on their earlier stuff , i have not heard their current generation of stuff , so my comment was not directed at such , i stated that in previous discussion ...

I tend to try and follow what reviewers listen to , regarding their reference system and then follow their comments based on experience from using said equipment. One usually get a feel for their certain bias's and predicted results ..

Regards,

 

[amirm]

I’m not sure I follow your logic here Amir. When Fremer made his comments about how the ML amp sounded, I’m pretty sure had hadn’t seen the measurements. Can you clarify what you meant about amps reproducing square waves? Even though music isn’t comprised of square waves, for some reason(s) square waves have always been used to test amplifiers.

I was not talking about measurements biasing him but the design of the switching amplifier. As you have read, he explains the ins and outs of the amp in his intro so he is pretty aware of it working that way. This has nothing to do with testing an amp using square waves by the way. As I said, even I am biased against such designs as I do my listening tests and have to work hard to get past that prejudice. Since MF likely doesn't think he is biased by such things, he probably did not even try .

And yes, I do think that people tend to get defensive if not downright prickly when their baby is getting trashed by either a review or the audiophile community. It’s only natural. No one wants to own or sell a component that has a reputation (right or wrong) of sounding bad for all of the usual audiophile sins.

You are so bad Mark when you try to pretend to be hiding your feelings/jabs. You wear your emotions so much on your sleeve that you should not even try .

You have to remember that the bulk of the high-end market ($$$) is made up of people who never read these reviews or set foot in this forum. The last set of Mark Levinson amps we sold went into a $300,000 theater we custom designed. The customer is not an audiophile but gave us one edict: it had to be the best theater we could build for him in his space. The people who come to us do so because they don't have the time or inclination to go and research such things. So as far as what my company "sells," such things are not a factor or else we would have shipped hundreds of them when the glowing review from RH came out . The amp actually made the cover there:

In the Harman tests that we talked about a few months, major audiophile brands like B&W and ML speakers did poorly. By your logic members here should be full of shame and be looking to dump their speakers in a river. .

 

[A.wayne]

I was not talking about measurements biasing him but the design of the switching amplifier. As you have read, he explains the ins and outs of the amp in his intro so he is pretty aware of it working that way. This has nothing to do with testing an amp using square waves by the way. As I said, even I am biased against such designs as I do my listening tests and have to work hard to get past that prejudice. Since MF likely doesn't think he is biased by such things, he probably did not even try .


You are so bad Mark when you try to pretend to be hiding your feelings/jabs. You wear your emotions so much on your sleeve that you should not even try .

You have to remember that the bulk of the high-end market ($$$) is made up of people who never read these reviews or set foot in this forum. The last set of Mark Levinson amps we sold went into a $300,000 theater we custom designed. The customer is not an audiophile but gave us one edict: it had to be the best theater we could build for him in his space. The people who come to us do so because they don't have the time or inclination to go and research such things. So as far as what my company "sells," such things are not a factor or else we would have shipped hundreds of them when the glowing review from RH came out . The amp actually made the cover there:

In the Harman tests that we talked about a few months, major audiophile brands like B&W and ML speakers did poorly. By your logic members here should be full of shame and be looking to dump their speakers in a river. .

Yes .... Full of shame ....!!!!

 

[RBFC]

Several posts with personal attacks deleted. Personal attacks are a violation of the Terms of Service at WBF. Please refrain from continuing with these comments, or further administrative action will be taken.

Lee

 

[Gregadd]

It doesn't matter if I don't like ducks. It doesn't matter if others have called it a swan. Nor does it matter if I have trained myself to ignore the evidence. Nor does it matter how much you don't like me. If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, It's probably a duck!