The language of Reproduction and the language of Music.

In my experience 'listening skills' need to be developed before one can use whatever part of any 'audio dictionary' in a meaningful way. It's the same with many things in life, wine, cooking, coffee roasting/tasting, etc. But for the extremely very rare 'noses' and 'ears' of the world there is a learning curve in which ears and brain need to be trained to recognize aspects before a description makes sense.

The high end naive listener walking around on an audio show is usually overloaded with 'great sound', and is likely most impressed with the kit that has the loudest bangs and the shrillest highs ) the tsjing-boom speakers of this world)
Ears, or rather our brains needs to get rid of much of its previous conditioning and learn what to 'look' for in sound, IME that process takes a good while.
 
In my view there are no skills involved .
There is no higher middle or lower class in audio .
I enjoy deep purple / child in time just as much as when i heard it at a friends house aged 7 or 8 .
An LP played on his fathers business partners Dual record player and shiny japanese stereo
receiver with pioneer speakers
Music is universal and doesnt require an entrylevel
 
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I was not talking about skills to listen to music or enjoy it. Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of my post, it is about the ability to express and describe aspects of sound which IMO does require gathering some experience.

Wine tasters describe wine using a large dictionary of words, do you need that to enjoy wine - no, does it help to be able to describe to someone which aspects you like in wine -yes
 
I used to read audiophile vocabulary/ magazines untill 2010 or so .
To me it all became a bunch of nonsense to be honest .
If i once in a while open a magazine in a library or an occasional store/ audio show visit .
I close it after a couple of pages .
Another new era/ ultimate / reference has seen the light of day .
I have become immune to it
The last dutch audio show ??
I prefered the zanden / magico V 3 from 12 years ago over any system i ve heard last year.
It hasnt become more musical / better to my ears .
I ll go to munchen this year and it could well be the last visit altogether
 
I used to read audiophile vocabulary/ magazines untill 2010 or so .
To me it all became a bunch of nonsense to be honest .
If i once in a while open a magazine in a library or an occasional store/ audio show visit .
I close it after a couple of pages .
Another new era/ ultimate / reference has seen the light of day .
I have bevome immune to it
OK.
 
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I would like to see the industry going to more dealerships in NL with good listening rooms and nice gear .
Instead a lot of nice dealerships closed in NL
And the ones still open are " by appointment" only.

To me the language of music/ reproduction goes via the ears not by words
 
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In my experience 'listening skills' need to be developed before one can use whatever part of any 'audio dictionary' in a meaningful way. It's the same with many things in life, wine, cooking, coffee roasting/tasting, etc. But for the extremely very rare 'noses' and 'ears' of the world there is a learning curve in which ears and brain need to be trained to recognize aspects before a description makes sense.

The high end naive listener walking around on an audio show is usually overloaded with 'great sound', and is likely most impressed with the kit that has the loudest bangs and the shrillest highs ) the tsjing-boom speakers of this world)
Ears, or rather our brains needs to get rid of much of its previous conditioning and learn what to 'look' for in sound, IME that process takes a good while.

Exposure to live music at early age makes a difference. Equally so for taking music lessons. Video games and television are not the friends of young music appreciation
 
Exposure to live music at early age makes a difference. Equally so for taking music lessons. Video games and television are not the friends of young music appreciation
for sure, I take time to listen to music with our 5 year old. Exploring different types of music, I was amazed we share a love for Mahler and similar types of electronic music amongst others. currently live music is not so easy, but we will do that too.
 
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In my experience 'listening skills' need to be developed before one can use whatever part of any 'audio dictionary' in a meaningful way. It's the same with many things in life, wine, cooking, coffee roasting/tasting, etc. But for the extremely very rare 'noses' and 'ears' of the world there is a learning curve in which ears and brain need to be trained to recognize aspects before a description makes sense.
Harman offers an application that is a (sort of) training course. It can help hone certain skills (good headphones are required)
 
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I think Tim expressed the idea well that creating a language to describe how a system (or a component in that system) sounds requires us to sort out what is important about the live listening experience.

We need to develop our language in more musical terms than what the current hi fi lexicon provides if we want to share our hi fi and musical journeys with others. WBF members want to talk with each other about their hi fi systems. More than a few of you have been lucky enough and worked hard enough (and probably spent more than enough money) to put together an incredibly musically satisfying hi fi system. More are probably still mired in the intricacies of their hi fi journeys, however, and these folks could really benefit from mentorship, but we need the right words to describe what we hear when we experience our musical sweet spot to earn bragging rights legitimately. The value of a more expressive language and the values it represents could have far-reaching positive consequences for our industry if more members of the review press and more manufacturers adopted this approach. I will flesh out that conversation in a future thread on my forum.

Tima said:

The live experience teaches us about tonality and harmonics, it teaches us about how the expressive use of dynamics and gradations of dynamics shape emotion.

Tim has summarized well most of the fundamental aspects of music reproduction that help shape and build our emotional connection with the music.

Fairly early in my hi fi life, I rejected hi fi terms as a tool to explain what I thought were the characteristics of a musically satisfying home audio system. To that end, I have used up quite a few pixels so far in my threads discussing the importance of tonality, harmonics, and dynamics to musically satisfying sound. I have mentioned that typical non-high end audio systems present a balanced slice of these qualities although not with the dynamic power and resolution that the best high end audio systems deliver. I have shared my all too prevalent listening experiences with more than a few high-end audio systems that fall significantly short of the mark in terms of balanced tonality and capturing dynamic gradations.

Several times in this thread, members have acknowledged that when listening to live music that pinpoint imaging in 3-dimensional space does not usually exist except when the music features a soloist, but even then, the sense of location is more diffuse than what many hi fi systems present because the complex fundamental and harmonic tones of a soloist start filling the performance space as soon as a note begins. It is possible, however, to achieve such an effect with all types of music by component choices, speaker set ups, and room treatment, but it is almost always at the expense of musically believable tonal balance and dynamics. These “heavier” essential qualities tend to cloud the over-emphasis on harmonics that is so necessary for enthusiasts to achieve the level of pin-point imaging they think they should be pursuing. Consequently, these set-ups effectively carve out the meat of the music to one degree or another.

In my vernacular, I have replaced the term “imaging” and any hi fi words associated with it such as sound stage with “space”. The combination of direct sound and the reflections of the music’s fundamentals and harmonics off the venue’s boundaries give us a sense of music space. Direct sound allows us to determine the approximate location of instruments, and reflected sounds captured on most recordings flesh out the listening experience.

Space is the final frontier. It allows us to forget that we are only listening to a hi fi system. A system’s or component’s ability to recreate music space can help us transcend space and time (where we actually are). Musical space invites and allows us to connect with recorded music on an even higher emotional level, however, only if tonal balance and dynamics provide the emotional foundation to the music reproduction experience.

I intend to have a deeper discussion of “space” in an upcoming thread on my forum. I have not been in a rush to discuss it because imaging is such a hot button in the hi fi world, and my concept of “space” requires a total recalibration of what one should expect from a hi fi if music is the priority.

Here is a description of what I consider to be 3 easy-to-grasp fundamental music listening criteria. I’ve had a chance to use these terms for years with audiences with very different music and hi fi experiences. The terms apply equally well to all genres of music including studio recorded electronic music, and one can freely drill down into these concepts with whatever descriptive words best express whatever any listener is hearing.

TONAL BALANCE : Does the system or component present a musically believable balance of fundamentals to harmonics with the full range of instruments featured in the recording? Does the system reveal the timbral differences created by different instruments and their musicians?

DYNAMICS: Does the system or component reveal dynamics expressively with all the gradations of dynamics from very soft to very loud, and everything in between?

SPACE: Does the system or component recreate the original recorded music space to a believable level by revealing the direct sound of instruments and the reflected sound of fundamentals and harmonics within the performance space?

These are not my words. You are all free to adopt, reject, change, or supplement them. I look forward to expanding upon these conclusions in a future thread, and I welcome hearing your thoughts.

There’s more than one right answer here.
I use the word "ambience" for what you call "SPACE". It's the living presence which includes noise, air, reflections, people, etc. that become the fabric of any space, enclosed or open. IMO this individual envelope from the original venue is critical to suspension of reality and what "natural" sound. It's also what majority of systems and equipment that I've heard can't reproduce properly. Some components even cover it up with some notion of fake background that they add to reproduction, the same is true with many audiophile pressings from known brands that treat the ambience as noise and filter the life out of it. 180g+ vinyl is another piece of modern junk that sucks the life from the grooves yet you have their producers hailing it as some kind of novel formulation. Maybe we should add the word "Con Artist" to the high end vocabulary seeing that so many are lurking in this industry and very few call them out! I know I'm burning many bridges as an industry insider but I really don't care.

david
 
I use the word "ambience" for what you call "SPACE". It's the living presence which includes noise, air, reflections, people, etc. that become the fabric of any space, enclosed or open. IMO this individual envelope from the original venue is critical to suspension of reality and what "natural" sound.

Excellent, David, excellent. I wish I could be this concise.

Living presence - the fabric of any space. <snip> One reason I love live recordings. Just listen to Vladimir Horowitz play Schumann's Fantasy in C Major on his "Historic Return" album from 1965 - live in Carnegie Hall - you feel the energy of an appreciative audience in a packed house, the electricity in the air. Fantastic!

Horowitz An Historic Return M2S 728.jpg

180g+ vinyl is another piece of modern junk that sucks the life from the grooves yet you have their producers hailing it as some kind of novel formulation.

I cannot recall the rationale for 180 and 200 gram LPs, if there was one. It increased prices when it started showing up. Less prone to warpage? In terms of formulation I'd prefer the money be spent on quality pellets, virgin vinyl that is non-repressed or re-used. Using a black light reveals some modern LPs with 'waviness' and discoloration. Neil Antin (record cleaning expert) speculates this is a sign of labels of repressed records getting into the mix.
 
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Excellent, David, excellent. I wish I could be this concise.

Living presence - the fabric of any space. <snip> One reason I love live recordings. Just listen to Vladimir Horowitz play Schumann's Fantasy in C Major on his "Historic Return" album from 1965 - live in Carnegie Hall - you feel the energy of an appreciative audience in a packed house, the electricity in the air. Fantastic!

View attachment 88716
Live recordings can be amazing specially in mono if they leave the recording more or less intact during production. Years ago I remember reading in one of the audio magazines how studio recordings are superior to live ones because they can clean up everything as needed and people bought into that.
I cannot recall the rationale for 180 and 200 gram LPs, if there was one. It increased prices when it started showing up. Less prone to warpage? In terms of formulation I'd prefer the money be spent on quality pellets, virgin vinyl that is non-repressed or re-used. Using a black light reveals some modern LPs with 'waviness' and discoloration. Neil Antin (record cleaning expert) speculates this is a sign of labels of repressed records getting into the mix.
There's no rationale for heavy vinyl! If I recall either Hobson or Kasem took credit for it and hailed it as some kind of breakthrough when reality is that they didn't know how to formulate vinyl and came up with a patch. Sadly since characters like HP & Holt came onto the scene high end became a game of gullibility and consumer ignorance so made up BS like 180g vinyl becomes a standard the same as black backgrounds and pinpoint imaging with very few questioning them because these people are looked upon as some kind of mavens.

Quality manufacturing is as much art as it is science and technology and IMO the artists and their art went away when they shut down all the pressing plants in the 80's. I don't know if any of the major labels operate a plant today or is it all farmed out to any 3rd party as long as they can press something and ship it out whatever the quality, and if the consumer continues to buy... Still some of the major labels still seem to produce acceptable product now and then so there's hope. To be clear I'm not down on the industry as a whole only on the so called "audiophile" version of it.

david
 
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A while ago I met Hyun Lee at BAM! and we chatted about the very essence that makes sound great; musicality, timbres and so on, for a good while. He used some Eterna label mono records to demo his elements, everything sounded totally natural, convincing and dynamic, in fact it was the best mono I ever heard even when the speakers were not quite right yet.

Yesterday I read the above post by Tima and recalled that session and sure enough was able to find some Karl Suske recordings on Eterna on Qobuz, Beethoven Sonatas for Violin and Piano (Opus 47, 30 and 3). Low and behold, the same natural recording that includes it's natural environment in a great way...I could not stop listening until very deep in the night. If you can have listen, even when this one in Stereo.
 
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I would like to see the industry going to more dealerships in NL with good listening rooms and nice gear .
Instead a lot of nice dealerships closed in NL
And the ones still open are " by appointment" only.

To me the language of music/ reproduction goes via the ears not by words
It is kind of sad that there are not many good hi fi dealers left in NL that you can visit during normal business hours unannouced. Unfortunately, this is a problem that exists outside of NL too. Perhaps this topic deserves to be explored in a separate thread. At any rate, A, it's not all that bad. You do have the Concertgebouw!
 
I use the word "ambience" for what you call "SPACE". It's the living presence which includes noise, air, reflections, people, etc. that become the fabric of any space, enclosed or open. IMO this individual envelope from the original venue is critical to suspension of reality and what "natural" sound. It's also what majority of systems and equipment that I've heard can't reproduce properly. Some components even cover it up with some notion of fake background that they add to reproduction, the same is true with many audiophile pressings from known brands that treat the ambience as noise and filter the life out of it. 180g+ vinyl is another piece of modern junk that sucks the life from the grooves yet you have their producers hailing it as some kind of novel formulation. Maybe we should add the word "Con Artist" to the high end vocabulary seeing that so many are lurking in this industry and very few call them out! I know I'm burning many bridges as an industry insider but I really don't care.

david
I like your word "ambience" to describe the sound envelope of the listening experience. I am not sure, however, how ambience applies to direct sound which is also a part of the sound envelope, recorded or live.
 
The concertgebouw is very nice, yet there is one drawback and that is its ' by appointment only policy' ;-)
I do hope concerts can start to happen again....
 
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180g+ vinyl is another piece of modern junk that sucks the life from the grooves.......

david
(Replying to a comment in this thread. Sorry for being off topic)

David,
I'm puzzled by this statement. I wonder if that conclusion is a fair one. When you say that a 180gm pressing is inferior to a standard 120 gm pressing, does that mean you adjusted the VTA between the LPs before coming to this conclusion? As we all know, the thickness of a 180gm LP is about 600-700+ microns thicker than a 120gm LP. If you are not adjusting the VTA for this discrepancy, you are not really assessing the SQ of a 180gm LP fairly. If you don't adjust the arm height accordingly to increase the VTA, it's no surprise to me that the the resulting sound is dull and sounds like it "sucks the life from the grooves". IMO, that's why I find Fremer's 92 degree set-it-and-forget-it VTA mantra to be ridiculous and non-productive. Arm height changes of 50uM, even 25uM, can have major impact on SQ of any arm set-up, even for records of equal thicknesses. Imagine then, how dramatic the differences can be when switching from 120gm to 180gm LPs! It's why owing arms without flexibility of adjusting VTA accurately and reproducibly (preferably in real time) is something I can no longer consider. (Adjusting the VTA on a Reed 3P is a pleasure. Adjusting the VTA on the Goldmund T3F is more painful than a trip to the dentist, although after using one for 30 years, I was able to make precise 20uM VTA changes in about 3 minutes). FWIW, I always thought the attraction of having multiple tone arms was the advantage of setting up two identical arm/cartridge combos at slightly different arm heights; one optimized for std LPs and the other for 180gm LPs.
Marty


gi.jpg
 
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I like your word "ambience" to describe the sound envelope of the listening experience. I am not sure, however, how ambience applies to direct sound which is also a part of the sound envelope, recorded or live.
I think that ddk is absolutely spot on. Ability to hear the entire recording venue, warts and all, is key to listener emotional connection and enjoyment. That's always been my bottom line. Direct sound is obviously part of the equation.
 
David,
I'm puzzled by this statement. I wonder if that conclusion is a fair one. When you say that a 180g pressing is inferior to a standard 120 gm pressing, does that mean you adjusted the VTA between the LPs before coming to this conclusion? As we all know, the thickness of a 180gm LP is about 600-700+ microns thicker than a 120gm LP. If you are not adjusting the VTA for this discrepancy, you are not really assessing the SQ of a 180gm LP fairly. If you don't adjust the arm height accordingly to increase the VTA, it's no surprise to me that the the resulting sound is dull and sounds like it "sucks the life from the grooves". IMO, that's why I find Fremer's 92 degree set-it-and-forget-it VTA mantra to be ridiculous and non-productive. Arm height changes of 50uM, even 25uM, can have major impact on SQ of any arm set-up, even for records of equal thicknesses. Imagine then, how dramatic the differences can be when switching from 120gm to 180gm LPs! It's why owing arms without flexibility of adjusting VTA accurately and reproducibly (preferably in real time) is something I can no longer consider. (Adjusting the VTA on a Reed 3P is a pleasure. Adjusting the VTA on the Goldmund T3F is more painful than a trip to the dentist, although after using one for 30 years, I was able to make precise 20uM VTA changes in about 3 minutes). FWIW, I always thought the attraction of having multiple tone arms was the advantage of setting up two identical arm/cartridge combos at slightly different arm heights; one optimized for std LPs and the other for 180gm LPs.
Marty


View attachment 88735
Dear Marty,
I'm a stickler for precise VTA adjustment! Everyone that I've worked on setup with knows the length I go to get it right. My problem with all this "audiophile" formulation is that it sounds horrible and it's really easy to prove with a properly setup tonearm and quality front end.

david
 

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