The language of Reproduction and the language of Music.

[Cellcbern]

Well, here is some florid prose from Howard Milstien of Sound Advocate of a review of their integrated 8550 which seems to fit the bill ?

I've heard this amp and the 108 model 2 and in my experience (which includes quite a few tube amps) the DartZeel is the most musically engaging sound I've yet to hear in my system. It just sound "right" to me.

The reviewer may be a little over the top, though!

"The darTZeel produces music that is indescribably beautiful, exact, nimble, and subtle to the ears, dynamically extraordinary, and incredibly profound. It also is so filled with such musical “correctness’ that one can’t help to sit and listen to music with a feeling of such satisfaction as its sound permeates through your senses without barely…. any type of limitations!

Massed strings, solo violins, voices, double basses, horns, and full orchestra–whatever the instruments or its tonality may demonstrate, the CTH-8550 MKII brings forth an overall sense of reality and pleasure of the recording venue- be it live and/or studio that never fails to make you just shake your head in wonderment and a bit of disbelief. I have only recently experienced this on a “few” such amplifiers!

This amplifier brings forth to the listener a level of emotion, low level to large scale dynamics tonality as well as the utmost musical precision and satisfaction that is rarely found in components today.

Should I dare say that if you are a tube enthusiast and have not heard this unit, it will ultimately make you forget about the “legendary” tube vs. solid-state debate once and for all! It bridges all the conceived notions and gaps that may have once occupied your mind as such."

That's close but falls a little short I think of this:

"...In addition to nailing the timbre, the Hybrid also presented a wonderful sense of air and bloom around the instrument, furthering the impression of hearing music and not a recreation of it....as impressive as the Hybrid was sonically, it did something far more important emotionally—it revealed more expression and feeling in Gordon’s playing....take the Absolare’s reproduction of voice, particularly female voice. I heard a remarkable lifelike immediacy, heightening the singer’s emotion and expression. There was an intimacy that touched me deeply in a way that other amplifiers fall short of, no matter how clean, transparent, or detailed they may be....something about the Absolare’s reproduction of it breathed life and expression into the lyrics, the performances, and the heart of the song’s meaning....Concomitantly, the Hybrid Stereo’s utterly organic and natural presentation put me in a frame of mind in which I was more receptive to musical meaning....

Question - is the reviewer of the DartZeel unit just describing what he hears or is he exhibiting bias?

Note that I have heard several different DartZeel amps/combinations and was very impressed. However I did not find them to be as musical and emotionally engaging as the best tube and hybrid designs I've heard.

 

[Cellcbern]

The tendency for SS amp reviews is to take a technical and attribute checklist approach to describing the sound and not a how that sound impacts your senses and emotions. That might not be exclusively so, but it is a clear difference in language used.

Is that because the tendency is to describe each type of amp in terms of what it excels at or is there some other reason?

 

[cmarin]

Here’s a review on HiFi+ of the SS CH Precision L1/M10 by Roy Gergeory that seems to transcend the usual tube/SS language and to focus on how the sound impacts your senses:

 

[PeterA]

I find this comment particularly interesting: “…it defeats the law of diminishing returns.”

Wow. That transcends the whole notion of the ultra high end.

 

[tima]

Some will decide they prefer one lifelike presentation over another. Some will plant their flag with what they decide suits them -- human nature.

This is what I call the basis of one's .preference.

 

[bonzo75]

Come up with all the refined music vocabulary you want, it will not eliminate audiophile bias, in my "un-biased" opinion. I've observed plenty of what I would call biased opinions on audio forums. And using "live" music as the touchstone won't necessarily give clarity either. One may go to horns with their lifelike dynamic ease, but suffer from very un-lifelike colorations from those horns. Or one can go in other directions and deal with other compromises. Some will decide they prefer one lifelike presentation over another. Some will plant their flag with what they decide suits them -- human nature.

It's fine to have your opinion, but please do not make those claims (indicated in bold) with your lack of experience.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Question - is the reviewer of the DartZeel unit just describing what he hears or is he exhibiting bias? (...)

All reviews carry a bias from the literature and contact with the designer/manufacturer. Sometimes we get two independent reviews from different parts of the world using almost the same words to describe the sound of equipment. In fact, part of the review is explaining the equipment it self and the targets of the manufacturer. Bias is part of our subjective hobby and will always exist. At best we can learn how to deal with it.

 

[bonzo75]

Some will decide they prefer one lifelike presentation over another.

As long as both are lifelike...I assume you meant live like. Then yes, one has a preference providing one has heard both and knows live. We are debating the issue where one chooses live like and the other one doesn't. The latter case belongs to the Stine family

 

[Ovenmitt]

Ron, What did those designers of theater horns and tubes and the Beyond turntables have to work with before Stereophile and TAS and the audio press taught people what to listen for? What do concert goers and music lovers say when describing music, sound, and a high end system for the first time? I remember what my musician friend and carpenter told me when we compared my old system and Pass/Magico to my new Lamm and Magico, and then Lamm and Vitavox. I was nothing to do with the glossary of terms. It was "Wow, what a difference, this sounds so much more real. The music is alive. That saxophone is right there." Etc, etc.

I disagree that the traditional audiophile glossary is all we have to work with. What about common, everyday terms like these in this incomplete list?

The positive:
Believable
Convincing
Natural
Life
Energy
spatial layering
power
gestalt
holistic
beautiful
nuanced
ambience
balance
information

The negative:
enhanced
spotlit
extended (beyond natural)
dampened
bright
painful
dull
boring
splashy
whitish

and then there are the non specific audiophile terms that are clear to all:

Tone
Dynamics
Presence
Resolution

I reject the terms that are heard and sought from some hifi sounding gear, systems, accessories, but that I never hear in real life concert hall settings:

ink black backgrounds
pinpoint imaging
image outlines
air between instruments
tight/fast bass

One of the big problems I think is that we have been taught to listen for sonic attributes like "air" and "black backgrounds" and to seek them out from components. That implies to me that we should here these things from the system if we buy these components. And we should hear them from all recordings. That then means, they are imposed onto everything we play. This makes various recordings less distinct, less unique, more the same. Black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging and tight/fast bass if always heard is a coloration. When reviewers use these glossary terms to describe the sound of components, I lose interest pretty quickly.

edit: I’m not advocating for some new kind of list. I am simply suggesting we use every day common language to describe what we hear from components and from music.

Peter, I love your list and where you’re going with it….I wonder though if you might have forgotten one? How about adding “Joy”?

 

[cmarin]

I find this comment particularly interesting: “…it defeats the law of diminishing returns.”

Wow. That transcends the whole notion of the ultra high end.

Peter,

i personally agree with Gregory’s diminishing returns idea on both a conceptual and experiential basis in my system.

The sequential addition in my system of the Taiko Extreme server, the upgrade of the totaldac d1-12 mk2 to the mk3, the upgrade of the Sablon USB cable from the 2020 to the EVO, and the addition of the CS2M footers under the Taiko Extreme, has provided a perceptible order of magnitude (greater than linear) improvement in the emotional engagement of the system with each cumulative addition.

In fact, the most recent addition, the upgrade of the d1-12 mk2 to the mk3, provided the greatest increment in musical engagement: an effortless and unwavering right brain engagement in the music.

I believe this latest level of engagement is possible because as based on Stirling Trayle’s comments in the HiFI+ review, the noise floor has been lowered to the point where artifacts created during the musical reproduction, no longer grab the left brain’s analytical attention; which allows the emotional right brain to dominate perception effortlessly.

 

[wil]

It's fine to have your opinion, but please do not make those claims (indicated in bold) with your lack of experience.

Point taken. I’ve only lived with one type of horn, Avant-garde. I thought they were mostly great speakers, but definitely horn colored. I can’t speak for other horns other than what I’ve heard on videos, most of which sound horn colored also except for the Bionars. But The videos may be totally misleading.

 

[bonzo75]

Point taken. I’ve only lived with one type of horn, Avant-garde. I thought they were mostly great speakers, but definitely horn colored. I can’t speak for other horns other than what I’ve heard on videos, most of which sound horn colored also except for the Bionars. But The videos may be totally misleading.

That was an AG duo, those are poor speakers, less than Magico or Wilson, better possibly only compared to Raidho

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am a fan of Roy Gregory, but after that review excerpt was posted here I received an urgent alert from the Hyperbole Police!

I don't care how good a component reportedly sounds. A serious declaration that a component has vanquished the law of diminishing returns strikes me as cringey.

 

[morricab]

I am a fan of Roy Gregory, but after that review excerpt was posted here I received an urgent alert from the Hyperbole Police!

I don't care how good a component reportedly sounds. A serious declaration that a component has vanquished the law of diminishing returns strikes me as cringey.

Roy is trying hard to channel his inner HP...and finding a lot of extra words along the way!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Wil please keep your own opinion , dont let bullies change that
You are exactly right .

Unfortunately horn criticism on WBF these days is met with


Your ears are not good .
You have no expirience .
You have no live music exposure .
...etc etc

 

[tima]

I am a fan of Roy Gregory, but after that review excerpt was posted here I received an urgent alert from the Hyperbole Police!

How do they contact you? Signal in the sky?

 

[cmarin]

Ron, What did those designers of theater horns and tubes and the Beyond turntables have to work with before Stereophile and TAS and the audio press taught people what to listen for? What do concert goers and music lovers say when describing music, sound, and a high end system for the first time? I remember what my musician friend and carpenter told me when we compared my old system and Pass/Magico to my new Lamm and Magico, and then Lamm and Vitavox. I was nothing to do with the glossary of terms. It was "Wow, what a difference, this sounds so much more real. The music is alive. That saxophone is right there." Etc, etc.

I disagree that the traditional audiophile glossary is all we have to work with. What about common, everyday terms like these in this incomplete list?

The positive:
Believable
Convincing
Natural
Life
Energy
spatial layering
power
gestalt
holistic
beautiful
nuanced
ambience
balance
information

The negative:
enhanced
spotlit
extended (beyond natural)
dampened
bright
painful
dull
boring
splashy
whitish

and then there are the non specific audiophile terms that are clear to all:

Tone
Dynamics
Presence
Resolution

I reject the terms that are heard and sought from some hifi sounding gear, systems, accessories, but that I never hear in real life concert hall settings:

ink black backgrounds
pinpoint imaging
image outlines
air between instruments
tight/fast bass

One of the big problems I think is that we have been taught to listen for sonic attributes like "air" and "black backgrounds" and to seek them out from components. That implies to me that we should here these things from the system if we buy these components. And we should hear them from all recordings. That then means, they are imposed onto everything we play. This makes various recordings less distinct, less unique, more the same. Black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging and tight/fast bass if always heard is a coloration. When reviewers use these glossary terms to describe the sound of components, I lose interest pretty quickly.

edit: I’m not advocating for some new kind of list. I am simply suggesting we use every day common language to describe what we hear from components and from music.

Peter,

i like the idea of your list, and would suggest the exercise of developing your list further by adding other potential terms to your list, refining the existing terms, categorizing/grouping them, and possibly adding comparable scales.

Below are a few quick suggested potential additions to your list:

Positive:
Alive
Engaging
Sublime
Emotional
Moving

Negative:
Fatiguing
Sterile
Disengaging
Unemotional
Artificial
Mechanical

 

[assessor43]

I guess what I would consider important is how much do I want to listen to my music? Does my system make me want to listen to more music regardless of cost? Thats the important thing. Do I go weeks or months without listening or I cannot wait to listen again? IMHO, the more natural the system sounds, the more you will want to listen. IME, you have to have tubes somewhere in your setup to help to get there.

I will say one of the the biggest improvements in my system came from getting rid of the power conditioner and power cables. FWIW, it made a big difference to my ears.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter,

i personally agree with Gregory’s diminishing returns idea on both a conceptual and experiential basis in my system.

The sequential addition in my system of the Taiko Extreme server, the upgrade of the totaldac d1-12 mk2 to the mk3, the upgrade of the Sablon USB cable from the 2020 to the EVO, and the addition of the CS2M footers under the Taiko Extreme, has provided a perceptible order of magnitude (greater than linear) improvement in the emotional engagement of the system with each cumulative addition.

In fact, the most recent addition, the upgrade of the d1-12 mk2 to the mk3, provided the greatest increment in musical engagement: an effortless and unwavering right brain engagement in the music.

I believe this latest level of engagement is possible because as based on Stirling Trayle’s comments in the HiFI+ review, the noise floor has been lowered to the point where artifacts created during the musical reproduction, no longer grab the left brain’s analytical attention; which allows the emotional right brain to dominate perception effortlessly.

i have to agree.

sometimes you do break through the clouds and mist. it's only a personal sense, and you have to be careful not to call it fact. but you know where you are.

i've had a few of those personal transcendent music reproduction/hifi experiences like that; starting 6 years ago with my room tuning my system. i knew i was done. here i am. and since then, i have been. then the 468 dart monos. ok.....check. the CS Port linear tracker/Etsuro Gold/LFD phono cable. can't get enough of it.....always fresh and embracing. like i'm hearing it for the first time. and now the Wadax Ref dac/server combo. a new level and all the way to where it ought to be. and i'm still working through getting the best from the Wadax.

years of pushing on all these areas, and then a sense that you got leverage on the law of diminishing returns.....it switched your way. you do need time for the reality of it to settle in. and the humility to realize it might not really be going on. but with time it proves out. it's still not fact.....it's just a sense.

but i can certainly relate to Roy's way of thinking.

 

[Ron Resnick]

How do they contact you? Signal in the sky?

I wish! A signal in the sky would be great if the Hyperbole Police operated from only one fixed location.

Fortunately for prose-abiding audiophiles -- and unfortunately for adjective exaggerators across the globe -- the Hyperbole Police have agents in almost every country.

Usually I am notified by SMS or voice communication on a special satellite transceiver -- built with discrete components, a Class A transmitter section, and a tube power supply for maximum audio quality.