The Mysterious Case of the Listening Window! By Jeff Day, Positive Feedback
- Thread starter PeterA
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Hi Tao
I’m all for smart herds, freely choosing their happiness. They make everyone better off.
But the audio herd is not a smart one , unfortunately , as audiophile misery is all around, all the time. In large part, due to dumb gear purchae decisions.
To have a smart herd , the following is required:
- diversity of opinion, meaning each person should have some private information based on some experiences
- Independence, meaning peoples opinions are not determined by by the opinions of those around them
- Decentralization, meaning that people are able draw on own knowledge instead of being fed information from the top down , or by the so called “authorities“
And financial Markets are diverse because they are made up of people with different amounts of money (and money being the only barrier to admission), different attitudes about risk, different time horizons, different investment styles, different information.
On this site, look at Ron, Bonzo, KeithR during their searches for gear, which were documented and described on this site. These guys got a diverse list of alternatives, assessed different solutions, considered the full circumstances and consequences of the different solutions...
and these guys are already very experienced....
Couple that with the fact that they are sharing their search process online, especially on this site, where there are many cognitively diverse perspectives and many very experienced folks...between their experience and the wisdom of the crowd here, these guys are more likely to have a better outcome, and, of course, different choices due to subjective nature of our hobby...
(having a great room and proper placement , along with proper decision making also greatly ensure happiness.)
And if other people were to actually go through the decision process rationally, and select a Magico or Wilson as their favorite , that’s great. I’m all for that . I’m a “live and let live” type of guy . Wilson and Magico and dcs are excellent companies.... a few arrogant mother fuyers work for each of them, but if someone likes that the cooking of those audiophile chefs, and they did their homework , all good... we all pick our favorite audio flavors... even the dumb fool who thinks he’s buying “accurate “ gear , based on “perfect “ measurements is getting the lean, bland flavor and odor of his chosen audiophile chef...
But , Unfortunately, that’s not what happens in reality for audiophiles...
now let’s look at the dumb way most audiophiles go through the decision process. They forego cognitive diversity and independence...
- If these guys read only Stereophile they would settle with Wilson, as most stereophile reviewers have Wilson’s as references.
(John Atkinson, who is good at measuring things for stereophile, and by all accounts , a pretty serious guy, is a dunce when it comes to understanding the hidden order of economics and social psychology. He has been a useful fool for Wilson audio, dagostino, and dcs , strengthening these brands via herd effects. These brands have become very rich and powerful under his tenure, as one of the ambassadors of the industry......at the expense for the rest of the manufacturers and resulting in a poorer hobby for the rest of us....
- Or reading only TAS assures Magico, as most reviewers there have Magico as a reference , and all except “great audio Yoda “ are completely worthless to audio fans , never comparing gear, hyping up drek, and getting people to waste time and money. If one were to take out the product category and brand out of a TAS article, the reader would have no idea if they talking about a dac, preamp amp, speaker, or turntable...
- Or the many low information audiophiles going to another forum , run by a dealer, and getting a recommendation from what the guy sells or wants to sell. Most threads read like marketing materials, while being cheered on by clueless fanboys , who don’t have the intellectual integrity to accept the full trade offs of their favorite products . Dissent is frquently censored and challenges to beliefs are rationalized... no wonder their systems suck (Even on this site, when a TAS reviewer wrote that the new Wamm Jr sucked on poor recordings (meaning streamed recordings, as the guy wouldn't be trying old Jascha Heifetz 78s, the fan boys and dealers looked away from the truth and claimed that it was a great review)
- Or the guy going to his dealer who has been doing this for 47 years! , is half-deaf, has been acclimated a particular taste (Wilson, dcs, transporent), and gets a bonus for selling a certain amount of boxes of a certain brand ...
- After reading the magazine the guy may go to a show and be exposed to a number of influence techniques designed to separate them from their money...
Influence techniques drive a lot of the behavior we see in high end audio, and their potency increases exponentially when several of these techniques are combined. (Check out Robert Cialdini’s best selling book.)
Example: Wilson alexia, only a relative handful made (uniqueness / scarcity influence technique ), a pretty car paint color is emphasized (uniqueness and scarcity), $60k plus (scarcity again) , a few guys on the internet love it (social proof - must be good if other (rich) people have it) , and John Atkinson-Wilson raved about it as his desert island speaker (authority influence technique). Sophisticated- looking (to those who don’t recognize a cheap suit) and talking, “Haughty ” Peter McGrath played some esoteric recording he made (and is available only to John Atkinson - reciprocity influence technique) and asked the clueless guy, “is the imaging and staging wonderful?” (Authority influence technique), and stereophile wilsonian Victor Jason Sirinoise bought a pair after his magazine review (authority technique, yet again ) ... computer audiophile geek has a big Wilson banner ad on his website ( authority again!) ....Haughty McGrath winked and came over to the salesman and mentioned that Wilson just conceived a new, wife-pleasing car paint that no one else yet has, “beige himalayan dirt with speckles and sparkles” that perfectly blends into the interior to make the wife happy , but sparkles in the light...the guy is thinking to himself: “I really like the Marten speakers, but no one I know has them... what if they suck? If I go on a forum and tell people I have Marten, I’ll be embarrassed with all the Wilson and Magico owners...What if I need to sell them, I will Lose 65 cents on the dollar!!!... Bingo!!!! Wilson must be better. Wilson it is!
Following the herd is the safest course of action...
So . Again, in audiophilia, we have a dumb herd: people are not making informed decisions ( decisions determined by those around them instead of Considering diverse options and informed by independent thinking). Just because some guy is great at business, law, or medicine - and has money to afford these expensive toys, doesn’t necessarily make him a good decision maker.
The dumb guy is ecstatic, thinking he’s reached utopia...until the initial listening euphoria fades away and he is wondering why his system sucks, while his dealer is on a cruise to Aruba from the proceeds of the sale...
If financial markets had this type of audiophile decision making (no diversity, no independent thinking, etc., I described above), we would have Dutch tulip manias, housing bubbles, and dot com bubbles all the time!
Sorry, Microstrip , this is the reality in this hobby. So, again, I don’t respect the decision making of most audiophiles. And there's just a handful of trusted advisors in "audio journalism". Most of those guys are scum
But again, happiness is possible:
- buying gear that sounds great on vast majority of recordings ( to increase happiness by having more psychological Flow experiences)
- having a great room and proper placement
- psychological understanding that the hifi is an experience that not the same experience as a live concert (increased happiness by avoiding unrealistic comparisons), but in some ways brings an experience of recordings of favorite artists that may be more enjoyable than attending live music concert of obscure musicians (savoring life’s joys)
The points, along with proper decision making would greatly ensure happiness.
In my mind you forgot something. People who DIY should be in there as well. It's one thing to go into a store, pick out and purchase a pair of speakers or an amplifier. It's another thing entirely to design and build one from scratch. If you want independent thinkers in your group that is a good place to find some.
It takes a different mind set and you learn quite a bit just going through the exercise.
Rob
In my mind you forgot something. People who DIY should be in there as well. It's one thing to go into a store, pick out and purchase a pair of speakers or an amplifier. It's another thing entirely to design and build one from scratch. If you want independent thinkers in your group that is a good place to find some.
It takes a different mind set and you learn quite a bit just going through the exercise.
Rob
Rob,
outstanding point!
I’ll be first to admit that DIY is a blind spot to me, not being technical. Can a smart DIY person open up the case of say, Vladimir Lamm’s amp, and come close to duplicating the genius?
Agree with everything except not comparing to live music as a reference. That approach gives me more satisfaction not less. Of course if your ability to compare is limited then it is probably going to lead to frustration
Agree 100% RobIn my mind you forgot something. People who DIY should be in there as well. It's one thing to go into a store, pick out and purchase a pair of speakers or an amplifier. It's another thing entirely to design and build one from scratch. If you want independent thinkers in your group that is a good place to find some.
It takes a different mind set and you learn quite a bit just going through the exercise.
Rob
There are many great circuits openly shared for decades and followed.
Dear caesar,
Can you please verify this statement?
Please provide us a list of the regular (on the masthead) TAS reviewers, and indicate for each name if he/she has Magico speakers in his/her inventory of loudspeakers or if he/she does not have any Magico loudspeakers in his/her inventory of loudspeakers.
Thank you.
Best wishes,
Ron
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Sorry, Caesar this is your very distorted myopic and microscopic view of this hobby, led by your usual pet hate feelings, with the usual insulting comments. IMHO the best way to drive most people from the industry away from WBF.
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Yes, even great brands use known circuits. However the secret is in the small details. High-end audio equipmemnt is a complex system, a small difference can kill a project. Otherwise many of us would own the DartZeel chinese copies we can buy cheaply at eBay, they look really nice!
Yes not saying you will like them all. The chances of DIY turning good is the same as a well known brand turning good. Very low. You have to do your search. Cost is lower in DIY and sonic quality is higher when you find it.
You are a pessimist, I am not. IMHO the chances are high for both known brand and DIY.
In the late 70's and 80's I built a few loudspeakers and amplifiers - either kits or copies on known circuits. They sounded very good, a few are even still playing in friends systems. Surely DIY bias expectation helped a lot. Builder's pride is even stronger than owner's pride.
That was a very enjoyable rant, Caesar, let it all hang out.
However, markets are determined by what customers want. The money chases the goods, and it is clear that audiophiles reeking with dough want glossy stuff with redolent mythologies. Let them eat Ferrari finishes!
However, markets are determined by what customers want. The money chases the goods, and it is clear that audiophiles reeking with dough want glossy stuff with redolent mythologies. Let them eat Ferrari finishes!
There’s a lot of mythologising in all this Caesar but it’s simplistic to cast a read across all of us and have an outcome where the majority are just seen as dumb and uninformed. I’m genuinely not sure on this being the only truth nor is it perhaps helpful or a completely balanced and fair view of what is.
But you have chosen a way that sees you obviously really happy with all the gear that you’ve bought and that’s awesome but why not then share it with us? So much effort spent on showing many others where they are going wrong so why not instead just show us where you have gone right.
Start a system thread and share your systems... explain what you’ve done, let us see how the systems that you have put together actually come together and give us insights into how they sound and the music that you play on them and give us some understanding into how you have done this all better.
I’m just suggesting also contribute to our understanding by example. We are all varying works in progress and many are also prisoners of varying circumstance (also in our desire and folly)... but at least share what you have wrought rather than just delivering great reams of regular judgements upon others.
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Sorry to have hurt your feelings, Microstrip. But feelings don't trump the economic and social reality of this hobby. Or of anything else.
I also believe that you have your cause and effect reversed. I would argue that the points I describe, along with points cjfrbw brings up in terms of luxury pricing, is what is killing this hobby. If people designed gear that increased the enjoyment of music instead of limiting it, more would enter the psychological state of flow and participate.
And yes, as a guy who buys gear, I do find all of the mis-information in this hobby disgusting. And I consider not comparing gear, when reporting on it, as lying by commission. So yes, I agree, it' s an unhealthy work environment for most people working in this industry due to all of the lies out there.
Excellent point. This is a luxury hobby. Been going that way, and this will continue as it shrinks and manufacturers have to raise the prices further.
But anyone can copy an excellent finish. Wilson's brothers from Utah, Zu Audio (hahaaha - rotflmao - nothing pisses off the arrogant audiophiles like the mention of Zu), make great finishes also. And others can also, like Sonus Fiber.
But how many people can copy their other activities that I described above, such as constant write-ups, reference systems of reviewers, mentions at shows. One would have a hell lot of work to copy of all of those activities, which assures their strategic position...
the only one is close is Magico, thanks to marketing assists from Valin/ TAS.
Hi Ron,
I do not read to TAS. Was looking a copy a few weeks at my buddy's, out of pure curiosity of what they were pushing and markeitng. And I do not know all of their writers. Nor would I waste any additional time reading them. But here goes, along with my subjective Power and Influence Scale of whether they can move gear for the manufacturer.
Valin - M3 - 100 Industry Influence Points
Harley - M6 - 60 Industry Influence Points
Cordeman - S7 ( I think) - 35 Industry Influence Points
Allan Taffel Quint ???/ Quinn- Taffel ??? - S5 ( I think) 20 Industry Influence Points
They may have a few others, like Neil Grobber, reviewing the small A speakers (I'll Save the suspense for everyone: "Best small speakers I have heard in my lifetime".) , but all of those guys would earn about 5-15 Industry Influence Points. So they are pretty insignificant.
So pretty rock-solid support for Magico.
No one, unless they have absolutely zero intellectual honesty, can say that Magico would be anywhere close to where they are without the marketing support from TAS.
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