The Mysterious Case of the Listening Window! By Jeff Day, Positive Feedback

[Folsom]

I’ll be first to admit that DIY is a blind spot to me, not being technical. Can a smart DIY person open up the case of say, Vladimir Lamm’s amp, and come close to duplicating the genius?

Yes but it's not easy to learn how to make PCB boards. Some parts may not be available, but hardly ever to the point to stop a copy. However sometimes the signature sound is very part dependent.

The most likely scenario is the person won't understand something so they'll replicate it wrong. Also they'll try to "improve" something but totally screw it up in the process because they never understood it to begin with. It's rare to see otherwise.

Yes, even great brands use known circuits. However the secret is in the small details. High-end audio equipmemnt is a complex system, a small difference can kill a project. Otherwise many of us would own the DartZeel chinese copies we can buy cheaply at eBay, they look really nice!

^^

 

[caesar]

Agree with everything except not comparing to live music as a reference. That approach gives me more satisfaction not less. Of course if your ability to compare is limited then it is probably going to lead to frustration

Hi Morricab,

I am not sure how close or far apart we are on that. I believe that everyone knows what live music sounds like. Of course, there are people, like music teachers and band leaders, who listen to it everyday. And there are really talented guys, with better ears and perfect pitch, like Mel Torme...

My take is that excellent systems all sound like a certain facsimile of "real", but nevertheless are a completely different experience. Guys will choose different ones based on their preference. Of course, guys who choose gear with lean tone or dynamically constricted speakers, such as most box speakers, are missing it completely.

 

[caesar]

There’s a lot of mythologising in all this ...

Sorry, Tao. "Mythologizing"...That's weak.

My behavioral economics analysis is rock solid. I am sorry you don't like what I have to say...

As to posting systems, I am not looking for anyone's approval on social media... so I am not vomiting my favorite brands all the time. I just bring up Zu to the arrogant audiophiles to get a belly laugh. My top system is a bi-amped MBL system with Symphonic Line. For guys looking for organic solid state, it's the top of the mountain, but I don't need to vomit that either. I also have killer B&W stand speakers. Long term goal is MBL extremes in 1 room and killer horns in another.

 

[DaveC]

You are a pessimist, I am not. IMHO the chances are high for both known brand and DIY.

In the late 70's and 80's I built a few loudspeakers and amplifiers - either kits or copies on known circuits. They sounded very good, a few are even still playing in friends systems. Surely DIY bias expectation helped a lot. Builder's pride is even stronger than owner's pride.

It really depends... as you said before the small details are what can make or break a product. Both individuals as well as businesses vary quite a bit in what they are willing to invest in the design, and they vary a lot in competency as well. Without investment AND competency (and PASSION) the chances are low.

While things are far better today than a couple decades ago, if you could have attended the first 5 years or so of RMAF you'd be convinced otherwise. An entire hotel full of incompetent and lackluster design made worse by horrific setups. Now I think it's much harder to get away with it, and a lot of gear is very good.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sorry, Tao. "Mythologizing"...That's weak.

My behavioral economics analysis is rock solid. I am sorry you don't like what I have to say...

As to posting systems, I am not looking for anyone's approval on social media... so I am not vomiting my favorite brands all the time. I just bring up Zu to the arrogant audiophiles to get a belly laugh. My top system is a bi-amped MBL system with Symphonic Line. For guys looking for organic solid state, it's the top of the mountain, but I don't need to vomit that either. I also have killer B&W stand speakers. Long term goal is MBL extremes in 1 room and killer horns in another.

I was just sincerely suggesting Caesar that you could possibly contribute more than just criticising others if you also actually shared your own experiences more fully (and not just ‘vomited‘ brands up which is actually what you just did to us then).

Instead of teasing about all this fabulous gear of yours you could share your experience in some more detail and perhaps teach the rest of us poor dumb souls a thing or two .. it’s all good, I think I do understand why you don’t and I was just hoping for more evidence and helpful data points on better ways within our shared pursuit.

The good stories here are also important. We should build more understanding though greater positive exchange and being open and sharing in our system experiences.

 

[caesar]

I was just sincerely suggesting Caesar that you could possibly contribute more than just criticising others if you also actually shared your own experiences in more fully (and not just ‘vomited‘ brands up which is actually what you just did to us then).

Instead of just teasing about all this fabulous gear of yours you could share your experience in some more detail and perhaps teach the rest of us poor dumb souls a thing or two .. it’s all good, I think I do understand why you don’t and I was just hoping for more evidence and helpful data points on better ways within our shared pursuit. The good stories are also important.

Hi Tao,
Please re-read my post above. As I mentioned in it, there is a smart herd and a dumb herd. Guys who follow a rational decision process and select something they like, I have no problem with. But, unfortunately, it's not how this hobby works. It's mostly the dumb herd that's killing this hobby.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Tao,
Please re-read my post above. As I mentioned in it, there is a smart herd and a dumb herd. Guys who follow a rational decision process and select something they like, I have no problem with. But, unfortunately, it's not how this hobby works. It's mostly the dumb herd that's killing this hobby.

I actually think its advanced age that is killing this hobby

 

[thedudeabides]

As I mentioned in it, there is a smart herd and a dumb herd. Guys who follow a rational decision process and select something they like, I have no problem with. But, unfortunately, it's not how this hobby works. It's mostly the dumb herd that's killing this hobby.

Please elaborate further on the dumb vs the smart and why the dumb are killing this hobby. Best.

 

[tima]

As I mentioned in it, there is a smart herd and a dumb herd.

There are no herds, just people with different preferences who want to enjoy better sound and music.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,
I do not read to TAS. Was looking a copy a few weeks at my buddy's, out of pure curiosity of what they were pushing and markeitng. And I do not know all of their writers. Nor would I waste any additional time reading them. But here goes, along with my subjective Power and Influence Scale of whether they can move gear for the manufacturer.

Valin - M3 - 100 Industry Influence Points
Harley - M6 - 60 Industry Influence Points
Cordeman - S7 ( I think) - 35 Industry Influence Points
Allan Taffel Quint ???/ Quinn- Taffel ??? - S5 ( I think) 20 Industry Influence Points

They may have a few others, like Neil Grobber, reviewing the small A speakers (I'll Save the suspense for everyone: "Best small speakers I have heard in my lifetime".) , but all of those guys would earn about 5-15 Industry Influence Points. So they are pretty insignificant.

So pretty rock-solid support for Magico.

No one, unless they have absolutely zero intellectual honesty, can say that Magico would be anywhere close to where they are without the marketing support from TAS.

If you do not read TAS how could you possibly purport to make your original statement with any authority or accuracy?

Your reply above does not remotely prove your statement that "most reviewers there [at TAS] have Magico as a reference." Your original statement implied that a majority of TAS reviewers either purchased Magico speakers or retained them on some long-term loan basis.

Your examples above referred to TAS reviewers who have at one time or another reviewed Magico speakers. Reviewing speakers is not at all the same as having speakers in a reviewer's list of associated components on a long term basis.

Plus you have listed less than half of the TAS reviewers.

Would you agree that your original statement was, if not false (which I think it was) at least ill advised?

PS: I agree that TAS's numerous favorable reviews of Magico speakers likely has been highly beneficial to Magico's sales.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I actually think its advanced age that is killing this hobby

In some hopeful counterpoint to my earlier statement my 20 year old nephew sent me an iPhone recording of their Harbeth 30.1s playing some contemporary classical music last night. Sounded great. So very cool to get a system video from family

He listens to a bit over 50% mostly contemporary music, 30% jazz (including lots of 50s and 60s jazz) and maybe 10 to 15% classical. He has a tt setup plus he streams.

He has a self-developed wide music listening window and their setup with Habeth 30.1s makes any music easy to connect properly with... plenty of resolution but the 30.1s really emphasise the goodness and are joyously and generously glass half full.

Just a very proud uncle!!! He may eventually be the last audiophile standing. Fortunately he already likes horns and my Harby 40.2s, the big Maggies, SET and Shindo so he’s getting all my gear when I do eventually exeunt stage left. Well deserved and well played. There is always hope.

 

[Al M.]

In some hopeful contrast to my earlier statement my 20 year old nephew sent me an iPhone recording of their Harbeth 30.1s playing some contemporary classical music last night. Sounded great. So very cool to get a system video from family

He listens to a bit over 50% mostly contemporary music, 30% jazz (including lots of 50s and 60s jazz) and maybe 10 to 15% classical. He has a tt setup plus he streams.

He has a self-developed wide music listening window and their setup with Habeth 30.1s makes any music easy to connect properly with... plenty of resolution but the 30.1s really emphasise the goodness and are joyously and generously glass half full.

Just a very proud uncle!!! He may eventually be the last audiophile standing. Fortunately he already likes horns and my Harby 40.2s, the big Maggies, SET and Shindo so he’s getting all my gear when I do eventually exeunt stage left.

That's great, Graham!

I don't, however, quite believe in the last audiophile standing. There are also lots of headphone audiophiles these days, it doesn't need to be speakers. In my own audiophile journey I started out with a headphone system, too, 30 years ago.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Yes must admit Al I went for a slice of melodrama, the posters curse but yes I’m hopeful that love of great audio translates through to the next ages... but I’m sure no matter what the love of music will. Can’t imagine a time when great music of all ages won’t be an alive and central part of our human culture.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I actually think its advanced age that is killing this hobby

That'll kill ALL of us.

 

[tima]

Can’t imagine a time when great music of all ages won’t be an alive and central part of our human culture.

Then hope the cancel Beethoven 'critique' dies a quick death shuts down quickly.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Then hope the cancel Beethoven 'critique' dies a quick death shuts down quickly.

Tim it’s likely music was the very first language when our Hominin larynxes first dropped and we first lyrically hummed to our young to keep them comforted... and it may well be the last language. Nothing communicates more essentially... words came later, they can be parsed and they tend to discriminate and to separate. Music is union. It is the end point of all separation. It is where we all meet. Though I’m guessing I’m perhaps not telling you anything you don’t already know.

 

[bonzo75]

Is that why so many audiophiles still can't communicate properly?

 

[bonzo75]

I thought words came after HP

 

[microstrip]

Sorry to have hurt your feelings, Microstrip. But feelings don't trump the economic and social reality of this hobby. Or of anything else.

You are unable to present any solid data on this hobby except your myopic view created by your view of the magazines you hate and a few shows. You are focused only in the US, completely ignoring the world markets high-end trends. What you call reality is mostly your imagination.

I also believe that you have your cause and effect reversed. I would argue that the points I describe, along with points cjfrbw brings up in terms of luxury pricing, is what is killing this hobby. If people designed gear that increased the enjoyment of music instead of limiting it, more would enter the psychological state of flow and participate.

The luxury market is a small niche created by the current social-economical conditions. It is used mainly for marketing by most manufacturers and thanks to the crazy investment results in a general improvement in other lower cost products. Many of my friends (and now their children ...) who owned miserable sounding systems now have very musical systems using, for example, Devialet equipment with good speakers.

And yes, as a guy who buys gear, I do find all of the mis-information in this hobby disgusting. And I consider not comparing gear, when reporting on it, as lying by commission. So yes, I agree, it' s an unhealthy work environment for most people working in this industry due to all of the lies out there.

The high-end is an extremely subjective matter. It is not possible to get an objective information on it that pleases every one. This happened since its appearance and will go on forever. It is not possible to report accurately on an hobby of small differences and preferences, particularly at a time people knowledge comes from short reports on the internet. IMHO gear comparisons are an extremely unreliable, biased and unfair way of influencing the consumers. YMMV.

BTW, if you find all this disgusting, what is your objective in this forum?

 

[PeterA]

I thought words came after HP

Now that is funny