The Mysterious Case of the Listening Window! By Jeff Day, Positive Feedback

jespera

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Jan 12, 2018
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That speaker does sound like crap ! I went to a friends house to hear it, he was proud of his new purchase, he is not a audiophile. The tech was cool and i expected good sound it is kind of a omni, automatic room EQ with a built in microphone that is motorized out of the speakers before the pulses and sound waves and the EQ begins, typical B&O features made to impress. No soundstage very little imaging, but they could play very loud without breaking up. I tried to keep a straight face, and complemented him on his beautiful new speaker :rolleyes:

What do you do if your friend reads this .. ?
 

Lagonda

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What do you do if your friend reads this .. ?
He is not a audiophile he will never read this ! He is a typical Danish B&O owner, hell we Danes have all been there, i owned my first B&O system before i owned a car :)
 
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bonzo75

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That speaker does sound like crap ! I went to a friends house to hear it, he was proud of his new purchase, he is an eager audiophile. The tech was cool and i expected good sound. I tried to keep a straight face, and complemented him on his beautiful new speaker :rolleyes:

Welcome to the club
 
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Lagonda

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Ron Resnick

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I'm curious if you include yourself in this so-called majority. If so, do you have any examples or evidence demonstrating a great intellectual curiosity who work with abstract ideas and have strong intentions on developing continuous improvements that you'd be willing to openly share?

the sound of Tao has a rich body of detailed postings and eloquent essays here on WBF which evidence clearly to me, for one, the attributes about which you inquire.
 

bonzo75

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You are a tricky one changing my words in the quote ! Well played Ked ;)

I was giving you a more useful general template
 

bonzo75

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I told my gf the reason I spend so much time on forums is it is academic. We do research, discuss, write, keeps the mind agile.

Her reply: I do it so I can have strong opinions on things that do not matter and argue a lot.

I was looking for an appropriate thread to post this and chose this one
 

tima

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Mar 4, 2014
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I told my gf the reason I spend so much time on forums is it is academic. We do research, discuss, write, keeps the mind agile.

Her reply: I do it so I can have strong opinions on things that do not matter and argue a lot.

I was looking for an appropriate thread to post this and chose this one

Surely both of you are happy to have this outlet.
 
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cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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I told my gf the reason I spend so much time on forums is it is academic. We do research, discuss, write, keeps the mind agile.

Her reply: I do it so I can have strong opinions on things that do not matter and argue a lot.

I was looking for an appropriate thread to post this and chose this one
It beats trephination to let the bad voices out.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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I told my gf the reason I spend so much time on forums is it is academic. We do research, discuss, write, keeps the mind agile.

Her reply: I do it so I can have strong opinions on things that do not matter and argue a lot.

I was looking for an appropriate thread to post this and chose this one
Are you sure you heard her right? I wouldn’t be surprised if she said “You do it...” :p
 

bonzo75

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When I wrote I I meant me. Not her
 

stehno

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the sound of Tao has a rich body of detailed postings and eloquent essays here on WBF which evidence clearly to me, for one, the attributes about which you inquire.

Interesting, Ron. Perhaps I overlooked it. Though hopefully there’s more than one definition for great intellectual curiosity, etc (attributes I'm not used to reading about)? But if as Tao says the majority here truly possess such attributes... well, I suppose it would be more the norm or standard for the majority here. In which case, perhaps it should go without saying.

Actually, I've little clue what Tao is talking about. That's why I posted my response. I'm interested to see might evolve from one possessing such attributes that I've never given much consideration.

Regardless, shouldn't one's lofty attributes in-and-of-themselves be fairly meaningless to anyone anyway - especially if the majority possessed them? Shouldn't it really all boil down to the end results rather than one's efforts or attributes along the way? I mean, if the results of possessing such characteristics are extraordinary then we can always backtrack later to drill down and discuss how any intellectual curiosity and abstract ideas played their role. Otherwise who really cares who shows signs of great intellectual curiosity, etc?
 

thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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I think changing a system or items within a system is fine as long as you have a specific goal in mind on what to improve and not just because it "doesn't sound good".

I totally agree.
 
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PeterA

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I think changing a system or items within a system is fine as long as you have a specific goal in mind on what to improve and not just because it "doesn't sound good". Those in pursuit of their ideal of "perfect" sound are not "set it and forget it", guys.

Well stated. But this is the challenge. People don’t always recognize what is specifically wrong with the system, how to address it, or where to go from there. I had a lot of difficulty with this.
 

caesar

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May 31, 2010
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"Robbed" is a grossly exaggerated (mis)characterization. How many people who purchased audio systems based on TAS recommendations have you interviewed, and out of your data set of interviewees how many of them described their resulting feelings as having been "robbed"? Please provide the data underlying this assertion.

Your confidence that people who purchase systems based on TAS recommendations are unhappy with the sound of their systems is sheer arrogance, and, I bet, unsupported by hard evidence.

Why do you feel the need to spew unsubstantiated rants as facts? If you can't support what you are alleging with evidence, then don't post it.

I agree with you that comparative reviews would be much more interesting and helpful than the non-comparative reviews most TAS reviewers write. But this is why I am such a fan of Don Saltzman; many of his reviews are comparative. Same with Michael Fremer's reviews.

Hi Ron,
First of all, no one than me is a bigger fan of the potential of what TAS can be. To their credit, TAS isn’t scared of reviewing top gear. Under John Wilson-Atkinson, Stereophile, on the other hand, has had a huge sense of guilt reviewing of the state-of-the-art stuff. Other than, of course, boosting and evangelizing the analytical and colored stuff like Wilson / dcs at the high end, while ignoring and / or crapping on everything else.

Wilson- Atkinson is getting up there in age, but he should finally realize that the world will always have people who are smarter, richer, more hard-working, and luckier than other people. If the world wasn’t like that, we would never have this hobby…

Maybe Stereophile , under the new guy, Austin, will accept this reality... Time will reveal his character… I hope he has character, is not a follower, has smarts about the behavioral economic and luxury realities of this hobby…

With TAS, it’s not personal – I’m just disgusted by their behavior. Pretty much everything they do , except for some of the work by “Yoda” Valin, is antithetical to the success of the hobby and enjoyment of the hobby by the audio fans. If it weren’t for “Yoda “ Valin, TAS would have been dead a long time ago.

Here’s the crux: Most audio fans – and individuals who can afford to play in this hobby are confronted by three very important issues: Money, Time, and Information to make decisions.
  • Other than for the ultra rich, there is only so much money available to spend on this hobby
  • And hifi is one of many competing activities, and the allotment of time is already scarce
  • TAS has gone all out to make things harder for people looking to access information to make rational decisions
The name “The Absolute Sound” , of course, is a “platonic trick” on the gullible, and opens the door for their abuse. Real, live music and hifi are different experiences. Sure, the best systems will mimic reality in some ways, but the two experiences are different - no matter how much platonic gymnastics people do inside their heads. But playing with people’s emotions and false promises of realism is just plain wrong.

TAS should be honest, have integrity, and admit that, so they don’t mislead people. Pro wrestling admitted it’s a fake entertainment , and as a result, it’s more respected by its fans than TAS is by the audio fans. TAS should face up about the reality of the high end audio industry:
  • Individuals have personal preferences for audio experiences. Everyone brings different prior experiences, assumptions, perspectives, beliefs about finances, backgrounds, available real estate, different goals, and imaginations of realism etc. There is no “best” experience! (Duh!!!). Anyone except the most clueless audiophiles find a car alarm going off as more credible signal of car theft than Harley and his team calling things “the best” (as he does in virtually every thing he writes)
  • Individuals get acclimated to those preferences and judge everything based on those preferences
  • Tradeoffs exist in capabilities of technologies and need to be thoroughly described via comparisons. But there’s a lack of intellectual honesty by their writers about the tradeoffs of different technologies (Box speakers do not have dynamics or tone of horns; Nor midrange of electrostats, etc. So again, no “best”, but tradeoffs)
  • Bandwagon effects / herd effects drive what people select or enjoy/ don’t enjoy many of the audio brands. By controlling what gets covered, these herd effects get magnified…it’s an ego trip for their reviewers… power and influence over fukking people over must feel Great
  • TAS Reviewers rarely compare the differences and tradeoffs, but instead use that vague , abstract language to confuse and obfuscate things, and have that gestapo - stasi attitude that they know the taste of their readers. So they hype up gear whose flavor they like, puking chunks in the face of audio fans, without humility and respect and empathy for the fans who buy the gear. Wouldn’t a trusted advisor at least compare and contrast the 2 technologies to highlight the differences and guide the reader to make their own choice?
  • Without comparing , consumers are less able to determine the value and assess the quality of the products. With less information ( but more hype), it’s more difficult to evaluate the quality of each alternative on its own merits. (Because of fear of loss of big money and time, and to reduce frustration, the bigger , established brands win)
  • Calling something “the best” in a subjective, experiential hobby shows the TAS guys are either idiots who don’t understand that this is a subjective, experiential hobby or the believe their readers are idiots who don’t understand this. I wonder if the TAS guys are just plain idiots or arrogant idiots... Either way, they lack integrity and don’t care to know the difference between right and wrong
  • Their writing is like an advertisement. It that contains information that their favorite brands want to convey to help sell the product. On the other hand, the audio fans are looking to achieve their own personal goals and objectives and need reliable information to do that

The sooner the TAS guys realize acknowledge and admit this, the sooner they will can start becoming “trusted advisers”

So Hell Yeah, Ron, I’m angry as hell for all of the time wasted on the garbage recommendations from these clowns and mother fukkers. I can NEVER get the precious time back …

Having scant free time , the last thing I want to do is listen some syrupy garbage like Wilson / audio research or analytical drek like Magico / most solid state, driven by the “best DAC extant”, the uber analytical Berkeley reference dac

And by failing to compare and describe the experiences as comprehensively as possible , they keep the information away from decision makers. Purchasers are not empowered to make informed decisions. By keeping the cesspool dark, those with established brands (Wilson, magico, dcs, pass, d’agostino, etc.) win, while everyone else loses. Bandwagon / herd effects get magnified. A handful of manufacturers get rich, but overall innovation in the industry suffers .
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
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Continued...

Sure, we all wish we all had data we needed and could quantify all these things. But it ain’t happening in this tiny industry, with so many small companies and mostly private information ...


And, furthermore , how does one quantify all the Unhappiness these guys bring to the audio fans? And most audiophiles are very unhappy…

Let’s do some simple arithmetic of how the TAS hype and garbage could affect a basic audio fan... Guys who can afford these toys have a lot of other things they can be doing with their time and money. Between taking time off work, traveling to hear something on a flight (or driving 15 hours in COVID times), incurring transportation and travel costs… A trip to hear a piece of gear can cost someone $3k-$5k. I know a number of guys who do that all the time. They read an article about some brand (soulution, consolation, nagra, ch precision magaico q5, etc.), and get super excited - their imaginative rather than realistic thinking takes over. It’s their fantasy of finding that one piece of gear that will finally make it “real”. I know a number of (very successful, intelligent) guys who get triggered into the “fantasy land” ….

Or if someone can arrange a loan for some heavy gear delivered to demo in their home. That could be several $ grand for shipping and moving...

And, of course, a wasted weekend or week. And more $$$$ if gear gets bumped.

People shouldn’t even have to waste 15 minutes on garbage they are interested in, in a hotel room at a show…

This is a leisure and entertainment business. A trusted advisor in this business would conduct their business to the highest ethical standard, with integrity and dignity. That means they thoroughly explain the pros, cons, and trade offs.

This is so they can increase the odds of their readers to have a hobby that aids them to live a good life, help people enjoy their music more so they can live a life rich in happiness, meaning, and purpose of their goals. (Check out Nicomachean Ethics By Aristotle for some excellent holiday reading.) Valin is the only guy at TAS who understands this.

The TAS guys and most of the other “audio journalists” need to think about the following:
  • Why do so many of these “audio journalists” want to do such meaningless, worthless , and harmful work? Why abuse their position of power?
  • Why push crap and jam products that are not a good fit for everyone, without clearly explaining why?
  • Well, what about systems thinking? Again, what about setting realistic expectations. Wouldn’t a trusted advisor do that?
  • Why manipulate the truth , instead of comparing gear , to push the sale?
  • Why destroy their reputation by “hiding” and ignoring flaws in a digital and transparent world? Is the dopamine rush from new gear worth the public humiliation ? (Everyone who went to hear Magico Q series (at the time, the “best of all time”), was able to tell that was just a speaker that was voiced/ engineered with an emphasis toward upper midrage and lower treble, and as the word spread, TAS / Valin / Harley reputation has been in the sewer ever since
Instead:
  • Why not , instead, strive to have gratification from having a positive impact on people’s lives? Why not set proper expectations?
  • Why not be completely honest about the trade-offs?
  • Why not strive to be trustworthy? A trusted advisor
  • Why not respect a human being , who may have worked their tail off their whole life to partake in this luxury hobby?
Don’t get me wrong . There is nobody out there that wants TAS to reach their potential, but they have destroyed the trust.... most audio fans trust a car alarm going off more than they do TAS recommendations of “best”.

Aristotle spoke of a concept called “Ethos”, which is the character of the communicator as understood and believed by their audience. Ethos is fundamental to creating credibility , and credibility has always been at the center of human connection, but TAS currently has no ethos…. the only way for the TAS guy to do that is to act as friends to audio fans, with having sincere desires to help someone enjoy the hobby, instead of baiting with the promise of that final utopia of “real” that will never come true...But I’m not holding my breath.

Back to Neil Grobber. After so many years in the hobby as an “audio journalist” (marketer!), this guy embodies everything that’s wrong with this hobby…. He has lied by omission (by not comparing gear and not telling the full story) and misled (only accentuating the positive, ignoring the negatives) - cheated people out of their time and money , while manufacturers sent him fun toys to play with. Today’s generation of politicians must have learned to lie from guys like him. What disgusting behavior. He will be remembered as a despicable mother foyer forever.

Cheers
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
3,560
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Here I thought you just liked to draw attention to yourself with your threads meant to stir things up. But you're actually kinda nasty. Click.

Thanks for the personal attack, but I have been called worse things. :)
 

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