The new audiophile vinyl series The Original Source from Deutsche Grammophon (AAA)

[kodomo]

ORG is bad. There is nothing necessarily about 45s only that is better. Classic records 45s are good but that is classic records. In that case you might find 45 better than 33. I did the classical ORG and speaker corners compare to originals, SC and ORG have some common releases. For Albeniz Suite Espanola the Decca SXL is so much better, and it is the first UK edition but earlier editions were in EU. Mendelssohn Deccas are excellent.

This 45 vs 33 is a noob thing, sorry, audiophiles think that 45 is more information. Sonic quality is based on the master tape, the engineers and the equipment that is used. That's why when any of this is changed, the sonics drop.

Dear Kedar. I also have classic records 45rpm reissues of some titles. It is very interesting that you find them very different. They both use the same tapes for origin and same engineer for remastering who is Bernie Grundman. I believe he did not remaster them again and again and they actually are pressed from the same remasters. While some of the classic records are pressed on one sided vinyl with their propriety formula, others afaik are actually pressed at the same pressing plant, RTI. So, wild variations between these is surprising and at my place not evident. Actually Analogue Productions, ORG and Classic Records 45rpm reissues sound very similar.

45rpm is not a noob thing, it is physical advantage in terms of sound quality, no questions about that! However, it always comes down to the actual recording and mastering. Being 45rpm does not guarantee best sound but if we have the same master, and we cut at both 33 and 45, 45 will surely sound superior every time.

 

[bonzo75]

Dear Kedar. I also have classic records 45rpm reissues of some titles. It is very interesting that you find them very different. They both use the same tapes for origin and same engineer for remastering who is Bernie Grundman. I believe he did not remaster them again and again and they actually are pressed from the same remasters. While some of the classic records are pressed on one sided vinyl with their propriety formula, others afaik are actually pressed at the same pressing plant, RTI. So, wild variations between these is surprising and at my place not evident. Actually Analogue Productions, ORG and Classic Records 45rpm reissues sound very similar.

45rpm is not a noob thing, it is physical advantage in terms of sound quality, no questions about that! However, it always comes down to the actual recording and mastering. Being 45rpm does not guarantee best sound but if we have the same master, and we cut at both 33 and 45, 45 will surely sound superior every time.

Classic records is better than analog productions in quality. Try Scheherazade, for example. We also did this compare at Mike Lavigne’s where his classic 45 was much better than my analog productions. Now I have both and the classic 45 is so much better. Classic 33 is better than AP as well. Your system has a problem if it doesn’t let you hear these differences

AP pictures at an exhibition is compressed more than CD. AP is good on jazz.

“45 will sound superior than 33” - I did agree as per apples to apple analogy. But I would rather go out find the most organic fruits.

 

[kodomo]

Classic records is so much different from analog productions in quality. Try Scheherazade, for example. We also did this compare at Mike Lavigne’s where his classic 45 was much better than my analog productions. Now I have both and the classic 45 is so much better. Classic 33 is better than AP as well. Your system has a problem if it doesn’t let you hear these differences

AP pictures at an exhibition is compressed more than CD. AP is good on jazz.

“45 will sound superior than 33” - I did agree as per apples to apple analogy. But I would rather go out find the most organic fruits.

I do not have the same titles from these three companies. I have different titles, so I can not make direct comparisons like you. It is always possible that it is me or my system, however I know my system is balanced according to my ears and my measurements so I feel it is more or less truthful to the source material. One day, if we can meet, maybe we can make direct comparisons here as well.

Back to topic, I feel like I will get the Brahms even if it is just to see how it tracks through different cartridges I have, just some audiophool time

 

[Kjetil]

Audiophool time. ??

 

[No Regrets]

Note to self: Get the Brahms anyway.

Addendum: I’m not really a superfan of Brahms. Some of it, like the Clarinet Trio, rubs me the wrong way. On the other hand I love the Liebesliederwaltzer. So, on the balance I opted out of the piano concertos album on release.
But with these discussions now in this thread and over at TA (thank you very much, everybody) there is no doubt, I’ve ordered it so that if it’s fine here I can boast and tell people with trouble that their equipment is incapable. I’m such a nice person.

P.S: Maybe I’ll like the music too. That would be a nice plus. D.S.

P.S2: I cannot find any research saying that pvc that has been stored properly like most classical LPs have should deteriorate at all. D.S.

I hope it does play wonderful on your system and I'll look forward to reading your report on it when you have the time.

I personally enjoy the Brahms Piano Concertos and have several different recordings of those pieces of music ( all of which play beautifully btw).

However, when we are reading reports that the record does not play thru without distortion on several different systems ( some of which are very high-end and set up by proficient audiophiles) and even from those at EBS included... I don't feel it's worth my time and energy to purchase and then have the hassle of trying to return for a refund. Wouldn't it be nice if they mastered & pressed the vinyl so that every music lover could enjoy the recording?

My system was able to track Verdi and Mahler and Beethoven and the Trout perfectly fine. Who know's, maybe my system will do fine with the Brahms too... but I have cancelled my order for it; at least until I hear from a good number of people who are not having issues with it.

Best wishes to all,
Don

 

[Kjetil]

The Telarc Tchaikovsky 1812 was/is infamous for it's troubling cannon shots. Maybe this TOS release of the Brahms Gilels Jochum is a companion for it?

 

[byrdparis]

I hope it does play wonderful on your system and I'll look forward to reading your report on it when you have the time.

I personally enjoy the Brahms Piano Concertos and have several different recordings of those pieces of music ( all of which play beautifully btw).

However, when we are reading reports that the record does not play thru without distortion on several different systems ( some of which are very high-end and set up by proficient audiophiles) and even from those at EBS included... I don't feel it's worth my time and energy to purchase and then have the hassle of trying to return for a refund. Wouldn't it be nice if they mastered & pressed the vinyl so that every music lover could enjoy the recording?

My system was able to track Verdi and Mahler and Beethoven and the Trout perfectly fine. Who know's, maybe my system will do fine with the Brahms too... but I have cancelled my order for it; at least until I hear from a good number of people who are not having issues with it.

Best wishes to all,
Don

dear Don
i wouldn't cancel any orders from this series, let along for the shear masterpiece they done in those remastering and remixing them to almost perfection compared to almost everything done on classical music in 40 years.
i have a LOT of classical records, first issues and many many remastering from the "best" labels. classic records, org, AP, etc...
the Brahms "problems" they talking about are exist but its a minor and IMHO insignificant for the music lover that loves analog reproduction.

i can only quote Reiner Maillard
"We all know that the playback quality decreases with a decreasing program diameter. We’ve had to live with this characteristic for more than 125 years now. Anyone who would like to avoid this effect is free to switch over to digital formats. In the analogue world, trade-offs have to be made all the time, as we can only make copies (as close to the original as possible) but not clones as is possible in the digital domain. Making trade-offs means making decisions. And each decision has a cost or consequence."

best wishes
Aviad.

 

[Kjetil]

Wrote with a member of the Hifisentralen forum in Norway in a thread I started about DG TOS. He has received and played his Brahms Gilels Jochum. He wrote in Norwegian and Google Translate doesn't make a mess of it (I'm lazy):

I have several players but have been mostly using an original Yamaha GT2000 with AT ART20 pu and an upgraded Technics Sl 1200G with external PSU, SME V arm and Miyajima Kansui pu ++ lately. Both track well.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think I'm getting there, cracking this toughest of tough nuts to crack. The Brahms has been a real torture test, but sweating the small stuff is paying off. And the sonic fireworks off this album is making the toil worthwhile.

I'm not gonna say I'm done, but 49.999% is now closer to 89.999%.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just finished the DG Debussy/Ravel. Pretty transcendental stuff. The long evolution in getting my system to excel on classical as it's always done on prog and electronica/ambient, is really evident when playing this DG reissues series. Only 26 years of hifi slog to get to this point, lol.

Looking fwds to the next four, and hopefully the continuing series.

 

[bonzo75]

Only 26 years of hifi slog to get to this point, lol.

All you had to do was get good records

 

[spiritofmusic]

All you had to do was get good records

I've got a few. But the more expressive and open system is very important. Critical for me in sifting out good and bad pressings.

This DG series has been a revelation.

 

[oldvinyl]

Just listened to the Brahms piano concertos again. Cartridge sailed cleanly through all four sides. I did notice some headroom compression on three chords on the piano during the fourth movement of the first concerto. They were so brief that it did not amount to anything.

Cartridge is a Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement (v2) with a Clearaudio TT1-MI linear tone arm.

While listening to the Brahms first piano concerto, I am convinced that it is my favorite of the two. Until of course I listen to the second piano concerto and am convinced that it is my favorite.

These recordings and pressings really capture the piano sound and physical presence. The bell like singing, the growl of the bass, and the force of the case is easy to hear on these records.

If it is not a stretch financially, then I recommend these Brahms recordings.

 

[shakti]

Opened the Brahms today and found the third side indeed very wide and close to the label written.



fortunately my TechDAS Platter weight is not too big...

I listened to the 3. side using the following two arm/cart combinations without any distortion:

- Glanz MH-124s plus Fuuga
- Ikeda IT-407CR plus TechDAS TDC-01

If someone likes a tough piano sound.., order this record until it is available

 

[Kjetil]

I most probably will have to realign my cartridges because of that side.

Arc Angles: Optimizing Tonearm Geometry

As Chester Rice, co-inventor of the moving-coil loudspeaker, once ruefully observed: "The ancients have stolen our inventions." So often, what is painted as new and innovative turns out to be something someone thought of long before. We have a habit of forgetting, and that applies not only to...

www.stereophile.com

 

[spiritofmusic]

Its certainly a tough track on Side 3.

 

[No Regrets]

I most probably will have to realign my cartridges because of that side.

Arc Angles: Optimizing Tonearm Geometry

As Chester Rice, co-inventor of the moving-coil loudspeaker, once ruefully observed: "The ancients have stolen our inventions." So often, what is painted as new and innovative turns out to be something someone thought of long before. We have a habit of forgetting, and that applies not only to...

www.stereophile.com

Hi Kjetil,
Have you had an opportunity to play the Brahms recordings on your system yet?
Best wishes,
Don

 

[shakti]

Its certainly a tough track on Side 3.

sure!
Many of the zero points chosen on western populare adjustment curves might fail. The most Japanese tonearm and overhang have a higher focus on low distortion in the inner grooves and have a smaller challenge to read the 3. side of Brahms.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I'm using an air bearing linear tracker, with 5" armwand. Have no idea if this makes life easier or more difficult for such a "long" side. I'm hoping easier in terms of physics, but my arm is notoriously had to get perfect azimuth and SRA sorted.

 

[No Regrets]

Just listened to the Brahms piano concertos again. Cartridge sailed cleanly through all four sides. I did notice some headroom compression on three chords on the piano during the fourth movement of the first concerto. They were so brief that it did not amount to anything.

Cartridge is a Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement (v2) with a Clearaudio TT1-MI linear tone arm.

While listening to the Brahms first piano concerto, I am convinced that it is my favorite of the two. Until of course I listen to the second piano concerto and am convinced that it is my favorite.

These recordings and pressings really capture the piano sound and physical presence. The bell like singing, the growl of the bass, and the force of the case is easy to hear on these records.

If it is not a stretch financially, then I recommend these Brahms recordings.

Okay, okay... I have caved in with all of the peer pressure

I had cancelled my original order for the Brahms Piano Concertos due to all of the talk of various systems not being able to track this pressing all of the way through. Today, I have place a new order for it... although I am on a "back ordered" list as I cannot find it to be "in-stock" anywhere at the moment. My fingers are crossed that I won't be disappointed with this one.

I have also pre-ordered the following...

Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
Beethoven Piano Sonatas 25-27
Smetana Ma Vlast
Mozart Piano Concertos 25 & 27

Best wishes to all,
Don