The new audiophile vinyl series The Original Source from Deutsche Grammophon (AAA)

[spiritofmusic]

Stick with it. In the end, only Side 3 of the Brahms was a test re grooves running so close to the label.

For me, the jewel in this batch has been the Debussy/Ravel. I can't get over quite how wonderful this sounds.

 

[Kjetil]

^I ordered an unopened Brahms via Discogs on Friday. Give it and me some time.

 

[tima]

Opened the Brahms today and found the third side indeed very wide and close to the label written.

WoW - that's tight. Would you measure in mm from the center to the start of the lead-out?

Different alignment curves have their null points at different distances from the lead-in and lead-out grooves. They also rise and fall in distortion (THD) at different points across the groove. Choose a particular curve and you choose where you prefer the least and most distortion.

I most probably will have to realign my cartridges because of that side.

The classical music vinylist knows that this type of music, especially large-scale orchestral music, can sometimes get close to the label. Inner-groove distortion is a fact for all recordings and becomes more severe the closer the groove gets to the label, particularly with climactic finales. Linear resolution reduces as the music proceeds and the groove becomes compressed.

One way to minimize innermost groove distortion is to choose an alignment curve with a null point closer to center of the record. Here is the now classic diagram created by Wally Malewicz:


Note the lead-in groove is on the right. Don't worry about a curve's measurement after 60mm, the IEC spec for the inmost groove radius is 60.325mm. UNI-DIN is only available on the Acoustical Systems protractors (Uni-PRO and SmartTractor.)

Whatever the choice, its a tradeoff. I don't know of anyone changing alignment per record, but this is where multiple tonearms can give a benefit.

For those with success or issues on the TOS Brahms PCs, what alignment curve are you using?

What alignment curve will you choose?

 

[Kjetil]

I use two sources for knowledge and setup of cartridge geometry.

1) This excellent article at Sterophile:

Arc Angles: Optimizing Tonearm Geometry

As Chester Rice, co-inventor of the moving-coil loudspeaker, once ruefully observed: "The ancients have stolen our inventions." So often, what is painted as new and innovative turns out to be something someone thought of long before. We have a habit of forgetting, and that applies not only to...

www.stereophile.com

2) I create two point protractors from this site:

Free turntable cartridge alignment protractors | setup tools

Generate a custom phono cartridge alignment protractor! Perfect for any turntable ✓ Easy to use ✓ Print or PDF download ✓ All free ✓

alignmentprotractor.com

Just setting overhang/one point wont do, and arc protractors need perfect pivot to spindle distance. It never is.

This Brahms side is also a good reason to use cartridges with ML/MR/SAS diamonds. They can read these short modulations without loosing contact with the groove.

 

[shakti]

For those with success or issues on the TOS Brahms PCs, what alignment curve are you using?

I am using (with success) the IEC alignment curve

 

[mtemur]

Here is the now classic diagram created by Wally Malewicz:

I’m not sure if he has created the the diagram. It looks like he used vinylengine’s tool to draw the diagram. You can easily draw similar diagrams. If Wally Malewicz did made this diagram before vinylengine’s tool, I admire his wisdom. Maybe someone else can share more information.

Note the lead-in groove is on the right. Don't worry about a curve's measurement after 60mm, the IEC spec for the inmost groove radius is 60.325mm. UNI-DIN is only available on the Acoustical Systems protractors (Uni-PRO and SmartTractor.)

I’m using Lofgren A without any problems and without noticeable inner groove distortion. IMHO it’s a good all rounder geometry for almost anything. Lofgren B can be better if you have mostly new pressings. I listened to all geometries including Uni-DIN and I can not say there is a huge difference between them in terms of distortion (tracking error). IMHO all can be used with great results except Stevenson which is good for 7” singles.

Whatever the choice, its a tradeoff. I don't know of anyone changing alignment per record, but this is where multiple tonearms can give a benefit.

IMHO the most important factor about inner groove distortion is stylus profile not the geometry. If the cartridge has MR, super fine line or similar modern stylus profile and aligned well then inner groove distortion won’t be an issue.

 

[oldvinyl]

For those with success or issues on the TOS Brahms PCs, what alignment curve are you using?

What alignment curve will you choose?

Alas, none of the above. Using a Clearaudio linear tracking tonearm.

With my prior tonearm (SME IV.VI and then SME V) I would go in between Loefgren and Baerwald using an SME specific WallyTractor.

My torture test was the last movement of the Franck Violin Sonata on London (Super Analog reissue).

 

[tima]

I’m not sure if he has created the the diagram. It looks like he used vinylengine’s tool to draw the diagram. You can easily draw similar diagrams. If Wally Malewicz did made this diagram before vinylengine’s tool, I admire his wisdom. Maybe someone else can share more information.

As noted on the diagram from Wally, it is dated October 2014. When is vinyl engine tool? Before or after, the diagram's notation is v helpful.

I also use Lofgren A. And likewise have tried the others. I agree about the somewhat minimal sonic differences.

 

[David MS]

As noted on the diagram from Wally, it is dated October 2014. When is vinyl engine tool? Before or after, the diagram's notation is v helpful.

I also use Lofgren A. And likewise have tried the others. I agree about the somewhat minimal sonic differences.

I defer to those with far greater technical expertise than I have. However, having returned a few weeks ago from the Salzburg music festival, I have found these DG reissues to stand up to the tough juxtaposition with the five live concert experiences my wife and I just relished. The Verdi is simply one of the finest recordings I have heard of full orchestra, choir and soloists. My DS Audio Grandmaster cartridge on a Tru-Glider arm managed the Brahms without audible distortion (Alsyvox speakers and (very recently) NAF Stradivari 211 monos). However, to my ears, the first piano concerto is a the better recording of the two - the second Lp sounds (to me) slightly "thicker" (more "condensed"?) in comparison. The Mahler is lovely. The entire set is a true gift - DG finally comes through!

 

[miniguy]

As noted on the diagram from Wally, it is dated October 2014. When is vinyl engine tool? Before or after, the diagram's notation is v helpful.

I also use Lofgren A. And likewise have tried the others. I agree about the somewhat minimal sonic differences.

Much earlier. Professor Erik Löfgren of the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, Sweden, developed and published the first tonearm alignment equations in 1938. Baerwald, Bauer, Stevenson and several others who came after Löfgren produced identical equations differing only in notation and arrangement.

 

[tima]

I defer to those with far greater technical expertise than I have. However, having returned a few weeks ago from the Salzburg music festival, I have found these DG reissues to stand up to the tough juxtaposition with the five live concert experiences my wife and I just relished. The Verdi is simply one of the finest recordings I have heard of full orchestra, choir and soloists. My DS Audio Grandmaster cartridge on a Tru-Glider arm managed the Brahms without audible distortion (Alsyvox speakers and (very recently) NAF Stradivari 211 monos). However, to my ears, the first piano concerto is a the better recording of the two - the second Lp sounds (to me) slightly "thicker" (more "condensed"?) in comparison. The Mahler is lovely. The entire set is a true gift - DG finally comes through!

It doesn't take technical expertise to recognize both natural sound and the quality of these DG TOS LPs. It is so good to have the live concert experience. Looks like you have a nice system.

 

[tima]

As noted on the diagram from Wally, it is dated October 2014. When is vinyl engine tool? Before or after, the diagram's notation is v helpful.

I also use Lofgren A. And likewise have tried the others. I agree about the somewhat minimal sonic differences.

I looked at the vinyl engine protractor curve calculator.

At the bottom of that page we see: "Tonearm Alignment Calculator design and coding by JaS © 2009" I don't know if that was what Wally used to generate his diagram, but I don't think that makes his doing so with the added notation as derivative. Regardless, the diagram is helpful for understanding different curves and protractors in a single pictorial.

My apologies if I've swerved the direction of this thread from its intended topic. People were talking about tracking difficulties with the TOS Brahms piano concerto. I think the point is made so back to the The Original Source.

 

[mtemur]

One way to minimize innermost groove distortion is to choose an alignment curve with a null point closer to center of the record. Here is the now classic diagram created by Wally Malewicz:

I checked original Analog Planet article and I must say that both the article and the graph (below) are incorrect.


According to Acoustical Systems, UNI-DIN geometry is based on DIN standard for outer and inner groove radiuses, 146.3mm and 57.5mm respectively. But above graph made by Wally Malewicz and shared by M. Fremer is based on IEC standard which is 146.3mm and 60.325mm. When you look at the inner null points you can see Lofgren A is 66.0mm Lofgren B is 70.3mm and UNI-DIN is 63.3mm. That graph is clearly using IEC. Between IEC and DIN standards only the inner groove radius changes and it may not seem important but it also changes inner null points. Which is very important. That’s why the graph is wrong. It should be drawn using DIN standard because the point of UNI-DIN geometry is advocating DIN standard for inner and outer groove radiuses. A fair comparison requires a new graph in DIN standard. Here is how it should be:

• 12” tonearm UNI-DIN effective length: 300mm, overhang: 12mm, offset: 16.95° (approximately).
• Other geometries are automatically drawn for 300mm effective length

The whole article on Analog Planet is based on a graph drawn in IEC standard to compare a geometry which is based on DIN standard. Also the conclusions are wrong because inner null points are different.

IMHO with the new, correct graph UNI-DIN geometry makes more sense by keeping distortion very low around inner grooves where distortion increases radically. if you have a record collection cut close to label UNI-DIN is much better than Lofgren B.

 

[Lxgreen]

A couple of Original Source titles popped up on Amazon

 

[tima]

A couple of Original Source titles popped up on Amazon

The two available in your image are pre-orders for release on 10/20/23. The Smetana 'Ma Vlast' is also available for pre-order. If those are wanted, probably wise to pre-order.

The first series is sold out according to DG and there are no more for sale, despite amazon's 'temporarily out of stock'. People are selling copies on Discogs - almost all are from Europe. I checked yesterday - sealed copies available at prices varying from a bit more than msrp with a few at 2-3x msrp. For example: La Sacre Du Printemps, only 1 copy at $175. Mahler 5th $49 - 150€. Of course, high shipping costs to US.

 

[tima]

I checked original Analog Planet article and I must say that both the article and the graph (below) are incorrect.
View attachment 116545

According to Acoustical Systems, UNI-DIN geometry is based on DIN standard for outer and inner groove radiuses, 146.3mm and 57.5mm respectively. But above graph made by Wally Malewicz and shared by M. Fremer is based on IEC standard which is 146.3mm and 60.325mm. When you look at the inner null points you can see Lofgren A is 66.0mm Lofgren B is 70.3mm and UNI-DIN is 63.3mm. That graph is clearly using IEC. Between IEC and DIN standards only the inner groove radius changes and it may not seem important but it also changes inner null points. Which is very important. That’s why the graph is wrong. It should be drawn using DIN standard because the point of UNI-DIN geometry is advocating DIN standard for inner and outer groove radiuses. A fair comparison requires a new graph in DIN standard. Here is how it should be:
View attachment 116546

• 12” tonearm UNI-DIN effective length: 300mm, overhang: 12mm, offset: 16.95° (approximately).
• Other geometries are automatically drawn for 300mm effective length

View attachment 116547

The whole article on Analog Planet is based on a graph drawn in IEC standard to compare a geometry which is based on DIN standard. Also the conclusions are wrong because inner null points are different.

IMHO with the new, correct graph UNI-DIN geometry makes more sense by keeping distortion very low around inner grooves where distortion increases radically. if you have a record collection cut close to label UNI-DIN is much better than Lofgren B.

Thanks for doing the work to show this - you make a good point.

 

[Kjetil]

New arrival today the Brahms Gilels Jochum from a shop in Warszawa via Discogs:
I measured the infamous side 3 of it to an inner groove radius of 52 (!) mm. That and a finger in the air outer groove radius of 146 mm (doesn't matter much) gives this according to Baerwald:


The nulls are pretty damn close to DIN Stevenson!
Now of course my measurement could be wrong and I need to see an optician. What inner groove radius do you measure?

 

[No Regrets]

A couple of Original Source titles popped up on Amazon

I curious how the pre-order works thru Amazon. If I put in the pre-order does that mean I'm assured of getting the records?
I currently have a few of these pre-ordered thru the elusive disc. But I wonder if I should pre-order thru Amazon simply because they have such a great return policy if the records arrive defective, and then cancel my pre-order thru elusive disc?

I've ordered from elusive before and have been happy with every one I've received.... never had to return anything yet, so not sure how they are compared to Amazon's liberal return policy. Any advice???

Thanks much,
Don

 

[Lxgreen]

Free shipping. No question returns. I always check Amazon first to see if an album I want is available there first.

 

[tima]

I curious how the pre-order works thru Amazon. If I put in the pre-order does that mean I'm assured of getting the records?
I currently have a few of these pre-ordered thru the elusive disc. But I wonder if I should pre-order thru Amazon simply because they have such a great return policy if the records arrive defective, and then cancel my pre-order thru elusive disc?

I've ordered from elusive before and have been happy with every one I've received.... never had to return anything yet, so not sure how they are compared to Amazon's liberal return policy. Any advice???

Thanks much,
Don

Amazon will guarantee the price of the pre-order and refund the difference to you if the price goes lower -- only items marked as 'pre-order guarantee' have this feature. They will charge your card when they ship. As @Lxgreen notes, Amazon will give you 'free' shipping without a purchase threshold and they deliver quickly. Easy exchange if the record is damaged. Iirc, Amazon will pay for the return of a defective record whereas Elusive Disc makes the consumer pay -- its been a while, I think that is still their policy.

Are you assured of getting the records? Probably -- we're talking about the future -- I don't believe Amazon would advertise them without the intent of delivery. My experience finds them very good. The single problem I encountered with Amazon was on delivery. I ordered the Debussy/Abbado when it was nearly sold out. They shipped the order immediately, should have been 1-2 days for delivery. After 3 days I got a notice "your package may be lost." They gave me the opportunity to wait or cancel. I immediately canceled and re-ordered. Three days later the same $%# notice - your package may be lost. I did not cancel that; since I wanted a copy I ordered from DG with the crazy Euro shipping fees. 3 more days and my second Amazon Debussy arrived (hooray). I still have not received the order from DG.

A side note: the Amazon Web page for the Mozart Piano Concertos 25 & 27 says the performer is Arturo Michellangeli. The album cover shows and says Freidrich Gulda, which is correct.

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