The Noob Linearity factor

[Tiltedfault]

Going with the flow (some of you might not relate), I am introducing a new provocative hifi attribute. It is called The Noob Linearity.

When we are noobs, and start with a basic system without much research (think back to your early audiophile days, even though for some people that might be 50 years), we find that if we jump up a grade, we get more weight and size of stage and scale. We get excited, and that becomes our early upgrade. Other examples are we find cheap SS sharp and hard, and find that putting any valve in gives us some soul. Our first experience with subs that adds weight.

For me, the Noob Linearity is a phenomenon where the person then just thinks a linear progression on the initial upgrade impression fronts will add more. More price, more size, more subwoofers. 45s instead of 33s, not appreciating other nuances might exist in mastering. More powerful SS stereo with more expensive valve preamp! In short, there is no real change from the Noob jump. It is just assuming linear progression on the lines of the initial upgrade impressions will get us more. The audition music, CDs and records stays round about the same through this journey and style of audition never really changes. Thinking there is a difference between 4 feet, 5 feet, and 7 feet of speakers in getting us closer to the scale of a real orchestra, or adding 6 subs instead of two will give us more realistic weight. Thinking our next upgrade, because of the “up” in the word, has to be more financial outlay on similar lines to get you more of the same thing. Because your last digital jump was more organic, obviously spending more on digital will get you analog. d-oh

While you might disagree with some of the examples, the NL ™ point is more about the fact that of your assumptions, how many come from an early stage of exposure curve and which come from the latter stage, and were there significant changes in strategy over the curve. If all you did was upgrade the same speaker (style of speaker) throwing more money and just go to bigger sized electronics and sources over the years, you are at an early stage.

in other words, it is not be about number or size of upgrades but also no. of system strategic/philosophic changes

Might as well indict most of the high end industry which caters to this progression of increasing size because it reflects the bourgeois progression of increasing income and often room size. There’s nothing wrong with this. One might say it is even natural.

When you say, “If all you did was upgrade the same speaker (style of speaker) throwing more money and just go to bigger sized electronics and sources over the years, you are at an early stage.” You may be describing a very successful strategy for some, though your complaint seems to be about a lack of thoughtfulness or exposure to different speaker styles or amplifier types? Is your point more or less that “noobs” haven’t had the epiphany that bigger isn’t necessarily better, or something else? If you are claiming that “noob linearity” stems from a lack of thoughtfulness or knowledge, then we all suffer from it to one degree or another.

Matt

 

[bonzo75]

Are they saying they have good sound or improved sound based on their purchases. If I upgrade my speakers to the Lyra, I will get better sound. I can say this because I like the way they sound and to me its an upgrade. How is this foolish if I spent my money and I'm happy? I would rather be called blissfully ignorant, I have never heard a proper horn setup, maybe I'm missing out but I still think my sound is good and can always be improved.

i have never seen you vocal on forums about how great your gear is.

 

[bonzo75]

Might as well indict most of the high end industry which caters to this progression of increasing size because it reflects the bourgeois progression of increasing income and often room size. There’s nothing wrong with this. One might say it is even natural.

When you say, “If all you did was upgrade the same speaker (style of speaker) throwing more money and just go to bigger sized electronics and sources over the years, you are at an early stage.” You may be describing a very successful strategy for some, though your complaint seems to be about a lack of thoughtfulness or exposure to different speaker styles or amplifier types? Is your point more or less that “noobs” haven’t had the epiphany that bigger isn’t necessarily better, or something else? If you are claiming that “noob linearity” stems from a lack of thoughtfulness or knowledge, then we all suffer from it to one degree or another.

Matt

Unless you have been lucky, it is very unlikely you discovered the right path when you were new. So if you are impressed very early on by certain factors, it would have been at an inexperienced stage. Twenty years later if you are chasing the same factors just with more money, thinking that first step which dress you closer, will now after more steps in the same direction take you even closer to the real orchestra, that is NL

There could always be exceptions who inherited the ultimate system and vinyl collection and don’t need to change.

 

[SuperDave]

I love my sound but I'd never say its what everyone should have, I recommend people listen to as many systems as possible and choose what fits their preferences and pocket book. I'm open to the fact that I may have been able to achieve similar sound at half the cost but had no exposure to systems like that being able to produce similar sound to my taste.

 

[SuperDave]

i have never seen you vocal on forums about how great your gear is.

Don't forgot about my Tripoint thread lol

 

[rando]

the NL ™ point

Struggling not to visualize your conceptual entry point here. On a high end site where the first reply notably dispersed relevance to larger part of unintended, but unavoidable, audience.

Going with the flow (some of you might not relate), I am introducing a new provocative hifi attribute. It is called The Noob Linearity.

Brazen. Sure to get those exiting their first childhood as fussy as those entering their second.

When we are noobs, and start with a basic system without much research (think back to your early audiophile days, even though for some people that might be 50 years), we find that if we jump up a grade, we get more weight and size of stage and scale. We get excited, and that becomes our early upgrade. Other examples are we find cheap SS sharp and hard, and find that putting any valve in gives us some soul. Our first experience with subs that adds weight.

For me, the Noob Linearity is a phenomenon where the person then just thinks a linear progression on the initial upgrade impression fronts will add more. More price, more size, more subwoofers. 45s instead of 33s, not appreciating other nuances might exist in mastering. More powerful SS stereo with more expensive valve preamp! In short, there is no real change from the Noob jump. It is just assuming linear progression on the lines of the initial upgrade impressions will get us more. The audition music, CDs and records stays round about the same through this journey and style of audition never really changes. Thinking there is a difference between 4 feet, 5 feet, and 7 feet of speakers in getting us closer to the scale of a real orchestra, or adding 6 subs instead of two will give us more realistic weight. Thinking our next upgrade, because of the “up” in the word, has to be more financial outlay on similar lines to get you more of the same thing. Because your last digital jump was more organic, obviously spending more on digital will get you analog. d-oh

Correct me if this is wrong. You seem to be volleying actual new interest back against the tendencies promoted by those attempting to gain influence in popular media streams. Revoke the newly minted fully licensed audiophile card of those suggested to start at the summit, a NL ™ point, from which they are about to be cast.

While you might disagree with some of the examples, the NL ™ point is more about the fact that of your assumptions, how many come from an early stage of exposure curve and which come from the latter stage, and were there significant changes in strategy over the curve. If all you did was upgrade the same speaker (style of speaker) throwing more money and just go to bigger sized electronics and sources over the years, you are at an early stage.

in other words, it is not be about number or size of upgrades but also no. of system strategic/philosophic changes

It is a delicate balance preserved here between a firm bedrock of cordiality and everything contained within the airglow layers or beyond. Time will tell if this line of reasoning drags back solvent interests solidly grounded in the former.

 

[andromedaaudio]

What is the right path lol ?
Kondo Koloration Set amplifiers
connected to some Devore or AN Uk 2 way speakers

Over my dead body.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If you bought the right path id give you some slack.
Untill then you re more like a financial guru who predicts the markets direction but never bought an option contract himself

 

[bonzo75]

k 2 way speakers

Over my dead body.

Good addition to NL. NLs think more ways always better, e.g. 5 way

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good addition to NL. NLs think more ways always better, e.g. 5 way

I make and listen to what i want i dont need your blessing .
You can call people dumb / noobs / whatever, it says more over you then them

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Kedar,

I see in your opening post elements of our recent discussions, both public on the forum, and private between us, which we have been unable to reconcile successfully (which means I have not agreed with you on every point and in every respect).

I believe I understand your point that the height of a speaker is an independent variable from how well it "scales up and scales down." I believe I understand your point that a sense of scale comes through "swell -- a controlled, powerful rise that soars up and is proportionate and feels untethered." I believe I understand your point that a bigger speaker doesn't always "sound bigger" than does a smaller speaker.

I appreciate that you truly believe that if I heard Devore O96 (a loudspeaker I also think is one of the best of its type) I will sell the Pendragons and all the VTL.

I understand intellectually all of these points even if I have not observed them side-by-side with you in specific systems. I concede that perhaps I don't fully understanding all of the nuances in these descriptions, which I could understand better if we were auditioning together.

But at the end of the day these attributes of a loudspeaker are, themselves, subjective personal preferences. You fault a tall loudspeaker for always imposing a tall image and soundstage. I agree with you that a loudspeaker should scale proportionately based on the ambient information encoded in the recording. If the loudspeaker doesn't do this I, too, consider it a failing. But no loudspeaker is perfect. Each loudspeaker has one or more subjective failings.

Even if I were to stipulate that a particular tall loudspeaker has the characteristic of imposing the same tall image and soundstage it doesn't mean that that loudspeaker fails for me. Scaling up and scaling down proportionately and with swell does not necessarily solve my personal sonic equation of maximizing suspension of disbelief on vocals. These are independent variables -- and independent preferences. If a speaker which satisfies the conditions you value does not to my ears project the height and scale and power and energy reminding me of a large symphony orchestra then I don't care how well and sensitively it scales up and scales down.

In your opening post you could well be describing my audio journey, starting with tall Magnepan MG-IIIAs and always staying with tall speakers and adding oomph and dynamic impact from other hybrid designs and from subwoofers along the way. I consider myself to have narrow preferences which are satisfied only by certain loudspeakers.

Another problem is that almost every time, if not literally every time, someone does not see things your way you conclude it is because they do not have sufficient experience auditioning certain loudspeakers which you consider to be instructive. I believe that you think the only reason I don't agree with the sonic attributes of loudspeakers you are addressing here is because I don't have sufficient experience either with certain horn loudspeakers (Altec/FLH) or certain sensitive dynamic driver loudspeakers (Sigma MAAT) or with Devore O96.

I think I have a moderately deep level of experience with a wide variety of loudspeakers. It is true that I do not have the depth and breadth of your experience with DIY. But I have heard Altec multi-cell horns in numerous systems. I have heard FLHs. I don't believe that the fact that I have not concluded that certain specific horn loudspeakers or very specific sensitive dynamic driver systems achieve for me greater suspension of disbelief on vocals than tall panels supplemented with cones evidences that I have remained a noob.

To assume and believe that somebody doesn't agree with you (and thus must be incorrect or ignorant, or both) because he/she is uninformed or because he/she has not walked your path actually is noob thinking of the logical analysis and cognitive dissonance varieties.

I think your opening post largely is subjective personal preference masquerading as a theory. I think you are implicitly suggesting that however people begin their audio journeys if they do not wind up on a path close to yours, then they have never graduated from the noob stage, and have not discovered or learned what you now believe, and thus have not attained the rank of professor in high-end audio which you believe you have attained.

 

[bonzo75]

Dear Kedar,

I think your opening post largely is subjective personal preference masquerading as a theory. I think you are implicitly suggesting that however one begins their audio journey if they do not wind up on a path close to yours they have never graduated from the noob stage, and they have not discovered or learned what you now believe, and thus have not attained the rank of professor in high-end audio which you believe you have attained.

what I have listed in my opening post are certain conclusions I have moved on from. For me it is clear that if you started with Maggies, and then ML, and then still with ribbon planars for the same vocals, you never moved on. What I have described in the OP are all conclusions that I had arrived to during the journey all of which I realized were incorrect.

Now...the above post was not aimed at you only, but all those who frustratingly cite the same things I had concluded when I knew less. For example, when I was a noob to records, I thought all 45s better than 33 rpm, because 45 > 33. There was a time that I did think, theoretically, Dali Megaline because it is a ribbon and big, crossed over to two big subs, Albert Porter style, was the bees knees.

Now I find that the idea that 7ft > 5ft > 4ft because a few feet in your listening room gets you closer to the scale of a real orchestra is a laughable idea. To create largeness and majesty of an orchestra requires coherence and dynamic range and a good recording. sure sometimes it might overlap with a large speaker like a dual FLH.

Finally, it was not aimed at you because you are quite honest in what 15 LPs you listen to and what you emphasize. There are others who do not, they don't seek the exposure you do, and they pretend their conclusions are correct just because they arrived at the big thing after spending, and their audition recordings would make someone switch off their music system.

 

[Djcxxx]

As most here know High end audio was born at the tail end of the post WWII Golden age of classical music when the last generation of old school European artists were recorded by a developing new age of audio. The music inspired the recording which inspired the gear. Those early recording engineers were looking to recreate the original performance for a home audience, an audio holy grail. It’s not a fools errand. I have LPs my father bought from 58-62 that bring forth a breathtaking detail and realism today.not fully realized with ny earlier Systems. Asking others what is good is meaningless without a personal taste, esthetic, or philosophy as an internal standard and validator. Nor are YouTube videos a means of evaluating any audio system. The personal experience of well reproduced music must be first hand. A “noob” is far better off spending time with a dealer and actually listening to personally meaningful recordings than posting on the internet getting all over the board responses to poorly asked questions devoid of background. Price is often the last refuge of the prosperous but uneducated and inexperienced. The music may not be live, but the listener must be and fully engaged to justify any investment of time and money.

 

[bonzo75]

And finally Ron if you can coin a new term WUOTS up, I can coin NL

 

[PeterA]

Just like it doesn’t qualify them to say their sound is good because they went bigger

On the other hand, this is a forum and regular posters have opinions they state often strongly

Ked, did you read something recently to prompt you to come up with this thread topic?

I can relate to your phrase “more of the same thing“. I went down that path for a long time and enjoyed it. I made small incremental improvements in the same direction thinking I was moving forward. I was, but I came to realize that it was not really getting me closer to my then rather fuzzy goal.

I began to experiment and think about sound in a different way. It started with a conversation in the listening room and paying attention to the way my friend’s voice actually sounded. I spent over a year experimenting with set up and getting rid of stuff from my system while I listened to a bunch of large and small scale acoustic live music. After the changes, when I thought I went as far as I could go with my existing gear and with my approach, I heard something completely different and changed my direction 180 degrees. I still have a lot to learn and am now focusing on music and recordings. It’s a fascinating hobby that is never ending.

I have been called a deplorable. N00B is not that bad.

 

[JackD201]

A newbie is a beginner. A Noob is a derogatory term. That is pretty simple. Now I am not talking to Ked here who clearly isn't interested. No problemo. I'm talking openly on an open thread in an open forum for anybody to agree with, disagree with or ignore.

A newbie will introduce himself as one and would be insulted if he was called a noob. Condescension brings short term release in its wielder but then opens him up to the very standard he sets on others. In street talk, bull shit will be called and bullshit is personal.

I'm all for a good rant. It can be helluva educational or at least entertaining. So I'm about to go on one! I'm not counting on this being either.

I'm pretty sure every single person in this forum is or has been a pro at friggin' LIFE. We're all here enjoying a hobby that is small because we are the only people that really care about how well our favorite music is played AND actually ENJOY it.

Who the hell here has the friggin' right to judge anybody else's choice of music or how he wants it to be served up? Raise your hands.

Who thinks this is a contest? Raise your hands.

How about this?

Guys that want to make it a contest.........Seriously, wake up. Audio if it were a sport would be one you played against yourself. It adds nothing to our status, is questionable when it comes to FINANCIAL status LOL It even makes us look like absolute nut jobs even to musicians! What exactly would a "winner" look like? LOL

I kind of draw the line of bad taste when tribalism starts to appear. I have no problem if it is a group of guys who are friends outside of the forum but "us" who is "us"? What is this group that is being so offended.

I'm here as an adult individual. Adult not in the sense that I am of age but rather what that age presumes. That I know responsibilities as a whole. I am not here to be part of a crew. I'm here because I want to interact with other adult individuals that we might mutually benefit with the exchange whether agreement is met or not.

Sniping by starting anonymous threads. What can I say? Oh yeah I remember.

I call Bull Shit.

 

[morricab]

Going with the flow (some of you might not relate), I am introducing a new provocative hifi attribute. It is called The Noob Linearity.

When we are noobs, and start with a basic system without much research (think back to your early audiophile days, even though for some people that might be 50 years), we find that if we jump up a grade, we get more weight and size of stage and scale. We get excited, and that becomes our early upgrade. Other examples are we find cheap SS sharp and hard, and find that putting any valve in gives us some soul. Our first experience with subs that adds weight.

For me, the Noob Linearity is a phenomenon where the person then just thinks a linear progression on the initial upgrade impression fronts will add more. More price, more size, more subwoofers. 45s instead of 33s, not appreciating other nuances might exist in mastering. More powerful SS stereo with more expensive valve preamp! In short, there is no real change from the Noob jump. It is just assuming linear progression on the lines of the initial upgrade impressions will get us more. The audition music, CDs and records stays round about the same through this journey and style of audition never really changes. Thinking there is a difference between 4 feet, 5 feet, and 7 feet of speakers in getting us closer to the scale of a real orchestra, or adding 6 subs instead of two will give us more realistic weight. Thinking our next upgrade, because of the “up” in the word, has to be more financial outlay on similar lines to get you more of the same thing. Because your last digital jump was more organic, obviously spending more on digital will get you analog. d-oh

While you might disagree with some of the examples, the NL ™ point is more about the fact that of your assumptions, how many come from an early stage of exposure curve and which come from the latter stage, and were there significant changes in strategy over the curve. If all you did was upgrade the same speaker (style of speaker) throwing more money and just go to bigger sized electronics and sources over the years, you are at an early stage.

in other words, it is not be about number or size of upgrades but also no. of system strategic/philosophic changes

Just so I understand what you mean. Are you saying that the first “Ah ha!” Moment is the one you keep mining more or less for life? You just keep on an upgrade path down that same road? If that’s not what you mean then I am not sure I follow you.

 

[morricab]

I think that Mike is just scared to hear the reality that 1) money doesn’t buy you top quality sound, you need more than money……you need knowledge or access to someone with knowledge. 2) the more costly systems are often not the best sounding.

If you think that you can buy your way to the top, you will learn that you are very mistaken. Buying the latest and greatest, is often a downgrade.

You are either in this hobby for “show” or you are into it with a passion. If passion of the music is your motivation then you can achieve great heights. If vanity, pride of ownership, and the equipment is your motivation then you will end up like……….always on the chase for the next “best” thing.

Yes but Carlos, don’t you have like 40 systems?

 

[bonzo75]

Just so I understand what you mean. Are you saying that the first “Ah ha!” Moment is the one you keep mining more or less for life? You just keep on an upgrade path down that same road? If that’s not what you mean then I am not sure I follow you.

Kind of. Ah ha is more of an epiphany, so I would not say Ah ha moment, but some conclusions. Big speaker weight and scale is an obvious one. We think at various times we have discovered something, the next thing. the early discoveries are what some people keep upgrading on as if it is obvious because it happened in their audio childhood, it will happen now. They don't veer off the early path much (in terms of conclusions), kind of showing they have not had exposure after that early period or seek not to.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes but Carlos, don’t you have like 40 systems?

Carlos is covered for critism .
For every question/ critique he s got an answer system