The pros and cons of manufacturer/dealer/designer participation

[NorthStar]

It's not so much about just the audio product but also about the audio dealer, manufacturer, designer, buyer, audiophile, audio forum member, member's opinion (including the maker, the distributor, the reviewer, the seller, the buyer, all the listeners, readers, members, guests, the entire audio universal worldwide community @ large in our audiophilia galaxy).

 

[BruceD]

And now we just need a name, don’t
be shy

Surely the Clue is NY Loft--

BD

 

[Mike Lavigne]

honestly; i don't see all the negative stuff being stifled here. and then behind the scenes pressure being applied? is this really happening? really? it's ok not to like something. just be an adult about saying that.

sure; tweaks will always be fair game, only that respectful ways of stating opinions are expected. and avoid generalities about any product; say what you heard, and in what exact context. broad brushes are not cool when being negative. you are offering a data point. singular.

everyone seems to talking in code. i guess i missed the Rosetta Stone distribution.

 

[Mdp632]

It would also help to know how many purchases are influenced by an industry accommodation pricing rather than what is the better product.

 

[BruceD]

What is worse is that people apparently paid heed to his review and Gryphon apparently suffered. Why did people pay attention to this literary drivel?

I think the said "reviewer" at the time was one of those to the Fore in the heady days of Hi End free for all in the magazines-hell you'd sweat on the non arrival lest it be a few days late /etc-ha!! Plus I'll admit his literary skills were of such that he could draw one in to the prose.
He still pops up from time to time--I've seen him at Shows

BruceD

 

[NorthStar]

honestly; i don't see all the negative stuff being stifled here. and then behind the scenes pressure being applied? is this really happening? really? it's ok not to like something. just be an adult about saying that.

sure; tweaks will always be fair game, only that respectful ways of stating opinions are expected. and avoid generalities about any product; say what you heard, and in what exact context. broad brushes are not cool when being negative. you are offering a data point. singular.

everyone seems to talking in code. i guess i missed the Rosetta Stone distribution.

We need audio leaders and dealers to teach us, people we trust, fair ethical positive audio reviewers, people like Peter, you, Francisco, Steve, Ron, and everyone else in this beautiful audio business @ the service of higher fidelity of music reproduction @ home, our home.

 

[DaveC]

...The standard must surely be lower for audiophile forum members who simply try products in their systems and want to share their experiences, but I don't know anymore. It seems that even non professionals are also being asked to meet a pretty high standard before they say anything negative. I was told I don't know what I'm doing, that I am biased against the product, and that my not being impressed with the product had been expected. All behind the scenes. I shutter to think what might have been written publicly about me and my reasons for returning a product.

So, imo there's also a big difference between writing a review and sharing impressions in a conversational thread. If you're posting what is essentially a full review of a product I think that's VERY different and you should hold yourself to higher standards.

Don't "shutter" too hard, I think most vendors are very reluctant to rebut a bad review, it mostly backfires. This has been mentioned, it's almost impossible for a manufacturer to rebut a review without seeming defensive and paranoid.

 

[NorthStar]

I think the said "reviewer" at the time was one of those to the Fore in the heady days of Hi End free for all in the magazines-hell you'd sweat on the non arrival lest it be a few days late /etc-ha!! Plus I'll admit his literary skills were of such that he could draw one in to the prose.
He still pops up from time to time--I've seen him at Shows

BruceD

What the neck is his name, Santa Klaus? ...Almost thirty years ago!

J-10
• https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ster-911-mk3-plinius.21687/page-2#post-422294

 

[morricab]

So, imo there's also a big difference between writing a review and sharing impressions in a conversational thread. If you're posting what is essentially a full review of a product I think that's VERY different and you should hold yourself to higher standards.

Don't "shutter" too hard, I think most vendors are very reluctant to rebut a bad review, it mostly backfires. This has been mentioned, it's almost impossible for a manufacturer to rebut a review without seeming defensive and paranoid.

When I was a reviewer for Positive Feedback I once lost the opportunity to review a certain amp and preamp because I told the manufacturer (as I always did) that a negative or at least not ecstatic review was a possibility because I tended towards being as honest as possible. Only happened once but that company is a relatively big brand now...

 

[Folsom]

Peter, I think your frustration seems somewhat clear. I can only imagine that you did what you could to give X a fair try, but it didn’t work for you.

Did the manufacturer say they thought it wasn’t going to be what you want? Including that information is rather valuable because it shows that they know their product, and were being helpful. But the rest of the comments don’t seem like they’d be appropriate by any means - or how you should talk to a customer/potential. Truth is none of us are privy to the situation so it’s really hard to fully know. But I certainly give you the benefit of the doubt because of my own experience.

For the sake of this thread, I’ll openly tell my experience with Peter. Peter was kind enough to try a powercord from me. It didn’t work for him. But I learned from this because it confirmed with another’s experience, and my own, that it’s situational - you get mixed results if less than all powercords are the same (that I make). All my interactions were cordial with Peter. He kindly and promptly returned the cord. I suppose there is nothing else to really tell, the audition wouldn’t be proper without a full set, and Peter would seem not inclined to talk about an incomplete experience. I wouldn’t hesitate to let Peter try any gear, or accept his honest feedback on his experience with it.

I think it still stands that pretty much everyone thinks it’s fine to post about your experience. Experience is the important word, we all know how subjective this all is, and how hard it can be to match up gear, taste, price point, etc add infinite.

 

[Atmasphere]

And conversely, the fact that a review is positive does not inherently make a review ethical.

That is certainly true! Once at an audio show in New York City, I sat at dinner between the senior editor of a major magazine and a distributor run by a millionaire. The conversation between them was in one breath about 2-page color advertising and equipment to be submitted for review.

I've found that about the only way around this issue is to vet organizations and reviewers prior to submissions for review. But I have no idea how a consumer would wade through the muck; about the only indicator that you can look for IMO is negative reviews, but nothing is guaranteed in this world.

 

[microstrip]

When I was a reviewer for Positive Feedback I once lost the opportunity to review a certain amp and preamp because I told the manufacturer (as I always did) that a negative or at least not ecstatic review was a possibility because I tended towards being as honest as possible. Only happened once but that company is a relatively big brand now...

I think you are happy nowadays you did not write it - why writing a negative review for a very friendly and enjoyable publication, where even feedback is a positive thing?

Disclaimer - I am surely biased, Positive Feedback has published rave reviews of my favorite digital system!

 

[BruceD]

What the neck is his name, Santa Klaus? ...Almost thirty years ago!

J-10
• https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ster-911-mk3-plinius.21687/page-2#post-422294

I am sorry I got involved in this thread--I did not think my comments warranted the Vitriol
you obviously directed at me in your post-
I'll refrain from posts in the future.

BD

 

[NorthStar]

I am sorry I got involved in this thread--I did not think my comments warranted the Vitriol
you obviously directed at me in your post-
I'll refrain from posts in the future.

BD

Bruce, several posters mentioned that past event without mentioning the name of the reviewer.
It seems that I was the only one who wasn't aware.
I was simply curious and I wanted to know, that's all.
Sorry if you misunderstood my tone; it was a mix of wanted to know now with humor (Santa).

No vitriol, no nothing, we all discussed Peter's thread title.
Michael Fremer was first introduced in this thread, and later on Gryphon.
That is all, nothing to do with you or anyone else.

Your participation is one of the best here; please don't refrain anything.
Best Christmas cheers,
Bob

 

[microstrip]

Actually, I have long since maintained we should try to visit people who have components or systems we do not believe in, to challenge our beliefs. One of my earliest trips to Marty was because he had a DRC system and like many I did not believe in it. I started to visit analog systems because at that time I was like Al, not appreciating the virtues of analog. I did not like many apogees initially, as I had heard badly set up ones, and even cancelled my first visit to Christoph. After that I said you know what, supposed to be a great speaker, so let's go listen to a full range to give it one last chance. And was blown away. Many such stories. So if you go against your belief, you can find some real gems

OK, do you think we should suspend our stereo listening activities until we visit a few people owning top state of the art multichannel systems?

In an hobby where we know we can not have it all, visiting different systems is not going to challenge my beliefs - it will just show other approaches and balances of stereo sound reproduction. We should remember that stereo is a never ending journey, but most of us are also driven by musical preferences. Open mind does not mean becoming a wind vane, although sometimes we felt compelled to make changes independently of our very rational arguments.

BTW, who said Al does not appreciate the virtues of analog?

 

[spiritofmusic]

To appreciate the virtues of analog is often to choose not to run a tt. And be totally happy w that decision.

 

[BruceD]

Bruce, several posters mentioned that past event without mentioning the name of the reviewer.
It seems that I was the only one who wasn't aware.
I was simply curious and I wanted to know, that's all.
Sorry if you misunderstood my tone; it was a mix of wanted to know now with humor (Santa).

No vitriol, no nothing, we all discussed Peter's thread title.
Michael Fremer was first introduced in this thread, and later on Gryphon.
That is all, nothing to do with you or anyone else.

Your participation is one of the best here; please don't refrain anything.
Best Christmas cheers,
Bob

Hello Bob, I know from your posts you are a person of integrity and always offer a

touch of humour and candour to the thread. I misread and now realise I should not have be so

pointed in my reaction. All good here and yes indeed lets move on and keep the Band playing

Thank you for the time to reply--

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

BTW, who said Al does not appreciate the virtues of analog?

Certainly not me .

But perhaps in Ked's mind, genuine enthusiasm about digital is only possible if someone cannot appreciate analog . I hear and enjoy analog in my friends' systems all the time.

 

[ddk]

I think it is interesting that the discussion has shifted away from member feedback and opinions about products on the forum and toward professional reviews and why they are usually positive, and that negative reviews are unethical and why.

David, Yes, this is true and we read about such cases here. Were those products represented by fellow members of WBF?

Kedar, I know how you feel. We are being told it is unethical, at least for professionals. The standard must surely be lower for audiophile forum members who simply try products in their systems and want to share their experiences, but I don't know anymore. It seems that even non professionals are also being asked to meet a pretty high standard before they say anything negative. I was told I don't know what I'm doing, that I am biased against the product, and that my not being impressed with the product had been expected. All behind the scenes. I shutter to think what might have been written publicly about me and my reasons for returning a product.

Hi Peter,
WBF has quite a number of industry participants so yes many of those products have some type of representation here also by definition I'm also a member of the much larger group which is the whole high end audio trade and it's affiliates for over 30 years. No matter what I say, positive or negative I'll step on toes. Praising a product can piss off a friend who's I didn't promote and knocking one, well, you've seen the consequences for that sin . Then there are the owner egos that you unintentionally bruise.

Ethical? Unethical? Big lofty words that have been carelessly thrown around in this thread, what does it even mean in this context? Who's setting these "Ethical" standards? Why should you even give a crap if they're not your values? Obviously some specific situation is bugging you, IMO if the trial was done in private then a certain amount of privacy is usually expected from both parties but use your own judgement. This is about your relationship with the vendor not ethics.

david

 

[Al M.]

Hi Peter,
WBF has quite a number of industry participants so yes many of those products have some type of representation here also by definition I'm also a member of the much larger group which is the whole high end audio trade and it's affiliates for over 30 years. No matter what I say, positive or negative I'll step on toes. Praising a product can piss off a friend who's I didn't promote and knocking one, well, you've seen the consequences for that sin . Then there are the owner egos that you unintentionally bruise.

It's a too sensitive world out there. I have learned a lot from my friends criticizing my system, and they have learned from my criticisms. That does not mean we always need to end up agreeing with each other.

It's more efficient to get to the truth faster, so I applaud your approach, David, regardless if I agree with everything you say or not.