The pros and cons of manufacturer/dealer/designer participation

[howiebrou]

Francisco, not about negative reviews of other member's systems I was only pointing out that the awkwardness Peter mentioned isn't limited to his interaction with industry members but to any WBF member.

I don't see how making a few suggestions or comments is an assault on anyone's hearing abilities, on the whole IME most people are open to the conversation and only a small group can't handle it and get personally offended, but this is neither here or there nor does it help Peter with his discomfort.

david

There are a lot of snowflakes around, David, who need constant reinforcement. It's the brave (or not so brave) new world.

 

[microstrip]

The idea that bad reviews can not be published is anathema to me. Excuses for supporting this viewpoint such as reviewers pressurising the manufacturer's lack of advertising in the said journal etc. is not an issue for only bad reviews. It is an issue of integrity, or lack of, and positive reviews are subject to this as well. I would consider a positive review which is obtained because a manufacturer advertises (or provides cheap goods) just as unholy as a bad review obtained because he won't advertise or couch favours.

Just look around and find us three negative high-end reviews you consider fair and useful to readers. Although there are many products I dislike I do not think that they deserve a negative review.

 

[JackD201]

Everyone gets a participation trophy.......

It's when the participants are prouder than the champs that crack me up.

 

[ddk]

Just look around and find us three negative high-end reviews you consider fair and useful to readers. Although there are many products I dislike I do not think that they deserve a negative review.

I know a number of people who're much better off according to their own admission dropping a number of products that were openly bashed here. Cat litter boxes, power cords and other AC messing boxes topping the list ! They're not only better off financially they're also happy to finally be in a place where they don't think about the next change but instead enjoying music and their lives. That would have never happened if we all cowered away from controversy.

david

 

[Folsom]

I know a number of people who're much better off according to their own admission dropping a number of products that were openly bashed here. Cat litter boxes, power cords and other AC messing boxes topping the list ! They're not only better off financially they're also happy to finally be in a place where they don't think about the next change but instead enjoying music and their lives. That would have never happened if we all cowered away from controversy.

david

I wonder partly if some of it was social pressure. Not all changes are "full" changes. But overall it's best to follow what you listen to, not what fulfills criteria. It's not hard to fall for the search of wanting something someone else describes. In fact I think that a lot of positive & negative reviews give you the impression there are things you should or should not experience but are questionable, require sacrifices in other attributes, and in general may do nothing at all for actual listening pleasure. So ironically sometimes a negative review sounds positive when you make changes in what you're listening for... and vice versa possibly, too. Which speaks to why descriptive is better than determinative. Also disclosure of associated gear means a lot, too. What's truly hard is for newbies to navigate it all without the experience to read between lines or know associated gear, or even a reviewers taste.

I think etiquette is a curse, too. For example I don't see the point in being overly strict and scoffing at people who don't want to do rooms like others, or chair style, etc etc. Laughing if a stereo doesn't have a soundstage that's big and 3D as a write off would be another, while ignoring everything else - stuff like that. A lot of that etiquette and write-off type stuff does appear to be strong in reviews. There's a lot to get caught up in that may not lead to enjoyment at all.

P.S. I chuckle a little about the AC messing boxes. While I think almost all of them are horrible, it's also ironic that Lamm has a little one in every device.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

one pied piper is as good as another.......

 

[Tango]

I know a number of people who're much better off according to their own admission dropping a number of products that were openly bashed here. Cat litter boxes, power cords and other AC messing boxes topping the list ! They're not only better off financially they're also happy to finally be in a place where they don't think about the next change but instead enjoying music and their lives. That would have never happened if we all cowered away from controversy.

david

I don't know if we realize that when a newbie entering into high-end hobby, 99% of the time they walk to a dealer they would be introduced to power cord products at some point in time. The main stream of hi-end automatically drives a newbie that way. You are the first dealer I ever encountered that did not recommend me an expensive power cord not to mention other tweaks. Without you publicly squirting on expensive power cords all newbies likely will spend a lot of money on them. Exotic Power cord is like an automatic touch down god given way to be a serious audiophile. A lot of people peek at this forum. At least your bashing are making some people with a lot of purchasing power in Thailand making a second thought before spending money on them. What I am saying is sometime it will require a blunt bash, a smack in the head to shake a super high momentum heavy train to even tinyly shift a direction. Power cord is just an example that if there is ying, we require a yang too. In some case when the wind is so strong into one direction, it requires something really strong to get even a small glance. I am no blunt like David, but I have turned a few big pocket newbies around and save their money by showing them my sound is not any less dynamic, less quiet, less etc. than the systems they heard with uber cords and other high end gimmicks. Yes before they came to my room they have read what David the arrogant audio dictator squirted on WBF. If David said it diplomatically and politely none of this would have been in their consideration. Easy touch down for my friend who is a high end dealer.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Once I was in the Gryphon room at CES and witnessed a reviewer trying to shake them down for an amplifier. When that reviewer was refused he threatened them with a bad review (apparently he already had the product on loan in his home). Gryphon remained steadfast, but the bad review hurt them and it was years before they became more established again in the US after that.

. . .

Ralph’s report of this event is accurate in all respects.

 

[bonzo75]

Just look around and find us three negative high-end reviews you consider fair and useful to readers. Although there are many products I dislike I do not think that they deserve a negative review.

That's an easy question. If someone PMs me I can, depending on the person, direct them to many negative reviews combined across the mags or forums of products that in this polite environment can best be rated good

 

[howiebrou]

Just look around and find us three negative high-end reviews you consider fair and useful to readers. Although there are many products I dislike I do not think that they deserve a negative review.

In my opinion, usefulness depends entirely on the reader. Whether a review is fair has nothing to do with whether the review is negative or good. That was my point.

 

[ddk]

I don't know if we realize that when a newbie entering into high-end hobby, 99% of the time they walk to a dealer they would be introduced to power cord products at some point in time. The main stream of hi-end automatically drives a newbie that way. You are the first dealer I ever encountered that did not recommend me an expensive power cord not to mention other tweaks. Without you publicly squirting on expensive power cords all newbies likely will spend a lot of money on them. Exotic Power cord is like an automatic touch down god given way to be a serious audiophile. A lot of people peek at this forum. At least your bashing are making some people with a lot of purchasing power in Thailand making a second thought before spending money on them. What I am saying is sometime it will require a blunt bash, a smack in the head to shake a super high momentum heavy train to even tinyly shift a direction. Power cord is just an example that if there is ying, we require a yang too. In some case when the wind is so strong into one direction, it requires something really strong to get even a small glance. I am no blunt like David, but I have turned a few big pocket newbies around and save their money by showing them my sound is not any less dynamic, less quiet, less etc. than the systems they heard with uber cords and other high end gimmicks. Yes before they came to my room they have read what David the arrogant audio dictator squirted on WBF. If David said it diplomatically and politely none of this would have been in their consideration. Easy touch down for my friend who is a high end dealer.

Squirting cuts both ways positive too, how many are enjoying their analog front ends with SME 3012-Rs, a relative bargain and vdH Master Sig Stradivarius ! WBF has a very wide reach in the high end community, there are many who read these posts but aren’t active daily.

david

 

[howiebrou]

That's an easy question. If someone PMs me I can, depending on the person, direct them to many negative reviews combined across the mags or forums of products that in this polite environment can best be rated good

I remember Audio Critic when it first came out was pretty scathing of some products.

 

[Folsom]

That's an easy question. If someone PMs me I can, depending on the person, direct them to many negative reviews combined across the mags or forums of products that in this polite environment can best be rated good

Do you catalog them? I’d love the annual Ked’s poopoo list!

 

[BruceD]

Although its a bit off topic, there has been enough comment on negative reviews that I feel I have to pipe up, as I have some direct experience with this
I Once I was in the Gryphon room at CES and witnessed a reviewer trying to shake them down for an amplifier. When that reviewer was refused he threatened them with a bad review (apparently he already had the product on loan in his home). Gryphon remained steadfast, but the bad review hurt them and it was years before they became more established again in the US after that.
.

Yes I know the story there as well Flemming told me.I agree that was a total disgrace and a blot on the Reviewer ethics code
-if there is such a thing!
Interestingly another Industry heavyweight told me the went to the said Reviewers NY Loft and remarked his setup was the worst sounding he'd ever heard-Ha!.

BruceD

 

[bonzo75]

Yes I know the story there as well Flemming told me.I agree that was a total disgrace and a blot on the Reviewer ethics code
-if there is such a thing!
Interestingly another Industry heavyweight told me the went to the said Reviewers NY Loft and remarked his setup was the worst sounding he'd ever heard-Ha!.

BruceD

Yes but this lack of ethics is what I was pointing to when someone on another thread mentioned, why would a reviewer hurt his credibility by lack of ethics? My reply was that whether in reviewing or elsewhere, there have been cases where the dishonest have continued to be successful. So in this case clearly the one that was ethical (gryphon ) lost. Was this reviewer successful?

 

[howiebrou]

Yes but this lack of ethics is what I was pointing to when someone on another thread mentioned, why would a reviewer hurt his credibility by lack of ethics? My reply was that whether in reviewing or elsewhere, there have been cases where the dishonest have continued to be successful. So in this case clearly the one that was ethical (gryphon ) lost. Was this reviewer successful?

What is worse is that people apparently paid heed to his review and Gryphon apparently suffered. Why did people pay attention to this literary drivel?

 

[bonzo75]

What is worse is that people apparently paid heed to his review and Gryphon apparently suffered. Why did people pay attention to this literary drivel?

People pay attention to anything. Audio by nature is a hobby where the man wants to spend 95 percent of his time but in reality gets to choose gear while looking over his shoulder doing something else. A lot of people chat here, but if you consider the way many do research is by plain googling and without knowing the background of the poster or reviewer. And these are the involved ones

 

[tima]

Yes but this lack of ethics is what I was pointing to when someone on another thread mentioned, why would a reviewer hurt his credibility by lack of ethics? My reply was that whether in reviewing or elsewhere, there have been cases where the dishonest have continued to be successful.

At this point the producer fades in Dolly Parton and her backups singing "Farther Along"

Tempted and tried we're oft' made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long
While there are others living about us
Never molested, though in the wrong.

Farther along we'll know all about it
Farther along we'll understand why
Cheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine
We'll understand it all by and by.

 

[Lagonda]

Ralph’s report of this event is accurate in all respects.

And now we just need a name, don’t
be shy

 

[Al M.]

People pay attention to anything. Audio by nature is a hobby where the man wants to spend 95 percent of his time but in reality gets to choose gear while looking over his shoulder doing something else. A lot of people chat here, but if you consider the way many do research is by plain googling and without knowing the background of the poster or reviewer. And these are the involved ones

Who is such a fool to go by a single review? Since I did not have the opportunity of auditioning, I bought the first version of my DAC and my previous Reference 3A speakers only based on multiple reviews for each, and based on a remarkable consistency of characteristics described across the reviews for each. Both turned out to be winners.