The Science of noise reduction

[RogerD]

It's been a long time since I started a thread on noise reduction and new products have been brought to market and become popular by such firms as Shunyata or Trinpoint. I'll talk about what I have learned as electro magnetic interference degrades sonic performance and the science of this seems to be a mystery.

All audio equpment runs on electricity and current has a by product (EMI) and EMI degrades the audio signal. Current noise runs on the outside of the shield on audio cables,it also collects on the inner surface of metal audio enclosures. Audio cables are shielded and this shield is grounded and if grounded well the EMI will follow the path of least resistance to ground. How the shield is constructed or the size of the pathway will effect the quality of the audio signal. That is why some manufacturers use flat braided cable because the pathway is increased. In EMI mitigation the size of the pathway is the only thing that matters. The larger the pathway which is diameter X 3.14(PI) or the circumference of the conduit used. Current flows through wire and the larger the diameter the least resistance so EMI will take the path of least resistance and since it travels a long the skin of the cable the larger the pathway the more EMI or noise can be pulled away from the audio equipment and the purer the audio signal.

When does the pathway become sufficient to remove the EMI to a insignificant level? Good question,as right now I use a pathway of 1.283 inches and I think that is large enough but I also think that it might not be enough,but I also know that it is system dependent. I think I would use the lowest resistance cable like 2 AWG or even 1/0 which will impact the total system.

4 awg resistance .2485
2 awg .1563
1/0 awg .0983

So the scientific measurement I use is diameter X PI = EMI pathway and unfortunetly the human ear is the only device at this time that can be used to measure the amount of EMI removed. I may be wrong if there is a scientific audio measurement that will quantify this please enlighten me.

EMI Pathway 1.283 inches........ I upped it to 1.616 which is well worth it....I can't really put into words the qualities of the reproduction. Where is the bottom of the well? I honestly don't know now.

The 2nd day of 1.616 pathway which is starting to build "skin" bottom line I can find no fault at all. The Four Freshman the bass in their voices pressurizes my room effortlessly and they alone expand to my walls. I expect when all is said and done this soundstage will wrap around the entire space much like live music.

 

[audioarcher]

Hi Roger. Are you just putting an extra ground wire from the case of the equipment to the ground of the outlet? Or is there something else to it?

 

[RogerD]

Hi Roger. Are you just putting an extra ground wire from the case of the equipment to the ground of the outlet? Or is there something else to it?

Hi audioacher, Yes,that's it. I use 2 wires from the case of the preamp to the ground screw on the outlet(United States ONLY),the outlet is the preamp PC connection only. I started originally with 12 awg wire and now use 4 AWG cable. The amplifiers are also connected to the preamp with 4 gauge cable. I use 6 & 8 gauge on my other equipment and use 2 gauge on my Velodyne sub and on one amplifier that powers my psychoacoustics system. All of my equipment uses 3 prong IEC cables so the safety ground remains intact.

I might add that these wires are a pathway for EMI.

 

[FrantzM]

So the scientific measurement I use is diameter X PI = EMI pathway and unfortunetly the human ear is the only device at this time that can be used to measure the amount of EMI removed. I may be wrong if there is a scientific audio measurement that will quantify this please enlighten me.

EMI Pathway 1.283 inches

Roger

I don't know what to make of this. I suppose that you are fully aware that EMI and RFI aae scientific concepts and fully measurable.. Your statement is startling and wrong. I will leave it at that ...

 

[RogerD]

Roger

I don't know what to make of this. I suppose that you are fully aware that EMI and RFI aae scientific concepts and fully measurable.. Your statement is startling and wrong. I will leave it at that ...

I am not wrong Frantz and yes you are right they are measureable but not in the context of what I'm doing. Do you measure EMI emitted from your equipment? Or know if by what amount it effects your system sound quality. Many equipment manufacturers use shielding in their equipment. It has little effect because the EMI will still collect on the inside enclosure. Now if the electronics have a good grounding scheme internally,the EMI reduction is still limited by the size of the ground wire in the power cable,typically 12 to 14 awg. The pathway is still constricted and EMI still remains a corrupting influence on the audio signal. Even power conditioners that are based on star grounding and CMRR have minor effects simply because they only clean the power before the audio circut,not @ the circuit. The only true method of EMI noise reduction is to create a large pathway with low resistance to ground or a ferrite sink and that sink may constrict,where earth ground will not. So constriction is very important. As they say "your constricted at the trunk" and that impeeds performance sonically.

If you think it doesn't effect sound,well that's a opinion but the science proves that I am right.

I think what some are starting to understand is that EMI is a by product of current and effects the audio signal and that EMI can be stripped away by creating a pathway to a ferrite sink or back to earth ground. The size of the pathway has a direct effect on the audio signal and it's purity. The concept is pure simplicity,but not understood easily. It is not the size of the sink used, it is the circumference of the pathway. Is a 12 gauge wire adequate,in my experience no it is not,will it's use have sonic benefit...yes,but why put a limit on it. Does a larger pathway improve sound quality....the answer is in my experience by magnitudes.

 

[audioarcher]

If this is effective then would it not be even better if you ran a large ground wire from the outlet to the to the electrical systems ground rod as well? Seems this would be more effective in creating a easier path to ground than using a large wire just to the outlet.

 

[RogerD]

If this is effective then would it not be even better if you ran a large ground wire from the outlet to the to the electrical systems ground rod as well? Seems this would be more effective in creating a easier path to ground than using a large wire just to the outlet.

Archer.....no because the principle here is that what corrupts the sound quality is only what EMI does in the audo circuit. Think about it if you remove the EMI from the circuit then all that is left to currupt is the audio signal between the components and that is easily dealt with with shielded cable. Now that is a bold statement,but true.

 

[tony ky ma]

Hi Roger
I don't think we can have those high level equipments for measuring noise and do not cost too much money can improve sound quality that is good enough for fun, final judgement is our ear and brain
a power shielding can more easily to be found sound change. a picture show how I make the cable with power shield, for line level +15v and -15v sound best but for speaker cable has to add up to +45v and -45v. for phono tone arm cable need down to +3v and -3v ( those are open circuit only with voltage no current ) what you need to turn power on and off that will come out with different sound, do have a try
tony ma

 

[RogerD]

Hi Roger
I don't think we can have those high level equipments for measuring noise and do not cost too much money can improve sound quality that is good enough for fun, final judgement is our ear and brain
a power shielding can more easily to be found sound change. a picture show how I make the cable with power shield, for line level +15v and -15v sound best but for speaker cable has to add up to +45v and -45v. for phono tone arm cable need down to +3v and -3v ( those are open circuit only with voltage no current ) what you need to turn power on and off that will come out with different sound, do have a try
tony ma

Hi Tony,

Yes, I use a mic quad cable that is double shielded and is very good. No doubt in my mind that a well designed and shielded cable makes a difference. I have found that it is only half of the solution though in the EMI battle. Thanks
for sharing. I like the teflon tape design.

 

[Barry2013]

Roger many thanks for your post.
I only became properly aware of the benefits of grounding about 18 moths ago when I was receiving some new cables for a home trial and the dealer brought with him the UK distributor who had expressed an interest in hearing my system. After the cables were installed, Tellurium Black, he inserted a Silver Tellus and the improvement in the sound was instantly apparent.
18 months later I now have Entreq cables, a Silver Minimus for the speaker cables, two Silver Tellus and an Atlantis box to boost them both, Very recently I upgraded the three interconnects to the amp with Entreq Apollo - Vitus SIA 025- and the DCS Puccini, MD 108T and Whest PS 30 SE and added an Atlantis earth to the Puccini.
The intervening upgrades all produced clearly recognisable improvements and the latest upgrades of the Apollos and the Atlantis earth have jumped the sound quality to a new high. There is probably more to come with some further Entreq cable upgrades - speaker cable in particular - but I cannot speak highly enough of the combined benefits of the Entreq ground boxes in conjunction with their cables.
The noise floor has vanished and I am left with the clearest, truest and most natural sound,
Whichever product of this nature people go for is a matter for individual choice but I have to say that they are in my experience a true no brainer. I have eschewed component upgrades over the last 12 months in favour of Entreq ground box and cable upgrades and it has been the best decision I have made for quite a while,

 

[RogerD]

Roger many thanks for your post.
I only became properly aware of the benefits of grounding about 18 moths ago when I was receiving some new cables for a home trial and the dealer brought with him the UK distributor who had expressed an interest in hearing my system. After the cables were installed, Tellurium Black, he inserted a Silver Tellus and the improvement in the sound was instantly apparent.
18 months later I now have Entreq cables, a Silver Minimus for the speaker cables, two Silver Tellus and an Atlantis box to boost them both, Very recently I upgraded the three interconnects to the amp with Entreq Apollo - Vitus SIA 025- and the DCS Puccini, MD 108T and Whest PS 30 SE and added an Atlantis earth to the Puccini.
The intervening upgrades all produced clearly recognisable improvements and the latest upgrades of the Apollos and the Atlantis earth have jumped the sound quality to a new high. There is probably more to come with some further Entreq cable upgrades - speaker cable in particular - but I cannot speak highly enough of the combined benefits of the Entreq ground boxes in conjunction with their cables.
The noise floor has vanished and I am left with the clearest, truest and most natural sound,
Whichever product of this nature people go for is a matter for individual choice but I have to say that they are in my experience a true no brainer. I have eschewed component upgrades over the last 12 months in favour of Entreq ground box and cable upgrades and it has been the best decision I have made for quite a while,

Barry thanks and your just one who has become a believer. No matter the choice of how it is accomplished the concept of noise reduction is here to stay and is in fact the holy grail of audio,it levels the playing field. I think my method is best as it has no limits,but as always there is multiple ways to skin the cat. Enjoy the music!

 

[Barry2013]

Barry thanks and your just one who has become a believer. No matter the choice of how it is accomplished the concept of noise reduction is here to stay and is in fact the holy grail of audio,it levels the playing field. I think my method is best as it has no limits,but as always there is multiple ways to skin the cat. Enjoy the music!

Spot on Roger!

 

[jeromelang]

Does the directionality of the cable used in grounding matter?

 

[LL21]

Does the directionality of the cable used in grounding matter?

Others with far more technical than I might know. However, in the case of Entreq, the answer is that the terminations on each side of the cable are [usually] different...so you can really only use them in one direction anyway. The Entreq grounding box uses spade terminations...but their grounding cables often are meant to be used on the RCA jacks of the actual components so they are RCA terminated on the other end. Yes, they can come with spade terminations I am sure, but since I only use the RCA/signal grounding approach with my 2 Entreq cables, then I do not have to consider directionality since the cables only work in one direction anyway.

 

[RogerD]

Does the directionality of the cable used in grounding matter?

No there is no directionality in my method as the cable used is THHN copper stranded electrical wire that is solder terminated. This wire is used as a conduit for electro magnrtic energy that has collected on the inner skin of the equipment enclosure. As long as you can terminate and affix the ends you can actually use as large a cable as you wish. I am presently running 2 gauge THHN copper. The bottom line is I passsed the limitations of high end cables and other power conditioner methods some time ago.

I might add that the larger the gauge wired used the lower the resistance and the large improvements in sound quality seem to track the use of the lower resistance cable. Now the total system impedance could be lowered and that would explain the sonic improvement as resistance or impedance is lowered. At this point I think it is more then NR only @ work here.

 

[RogerD]

The NR experiment is finished and a complete success,the noise barrier has been broken. At my normal listening level,my brother sitting in the kitchen asks me "what is that,somebody taking a shower"? I answered no that's tape hiss! FM Acoustics....eat your heart out.. ROTFLMAO

p.s. and that was with a HDCD disc.

 

[GaryProtein]

I wouldn't use anything less the 4/0 silver wire for grounding and EMI control.

 

[RogerD]

I wouldn't use anything less the 4/0 silver wire for grounding and EMI control.

Your'e not being a jerk are you?

 

[GaryProtein]

Just facetious. If a little is good, more must be better.

Let's not get too serious here.

I will say I'm a big fan of star grounding all the chassis to a common ground, but the 12 AWG wire I use I know is tremendous overkill to drain a couple of microvolts.

 

[RogerD]

Just facetious. If a little is good, more must be better.

Let's not get too serious here.

I will say I'm a big fan of star grounding.

No harm, I just didn't now if you were serious or joking. What a waste of good silver,that would make a good sized ingot.