The Sound of Analog, the Sound of Digital

[microstrip]

(...) I would not listen for some elusive analog magic specific to the medium, however. I only would care if, on classical music, the analog sounds truer to my reference of live music -- or memories thereof, that's all we can go by -- than the digital. If it does, that's all the "magic" I need, and my only measure for it.

It is one of the dangers of using real music in concerts as a reference - we start appreciating more digital for the closer approach to real music and start neglecting the "magic". This happens particularly with complex music, but surely depends a lot on how we listen to music.

Please note I also really enjoy tape and vinyl. But there are recordings I really prefer in digital.

 

[ddk]

Again I can't understand how the gap has narrowed if digital recordings can do things that analog can't do. I think you say a lot when when you write that vinyl has much more magic NOW and NOW can soar to previously unattainable heights.

Can we conclude that a system built only with equipment more than five years old can not reach the highest levels of analog sound reproduction?

!

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Again I can't understand how the gap has narrowed if digital recordings can do things that analog can't do. I think you say a lot when when you write that vinyl has much more magic NOW and NOW can soar to previously unattainable heights.

Can we conclude that a system built only with equipment more than five years old can not reach the highest levels of analog sound reproduction?

digital does nothing analog cannot do.......

and my comments were relative to my own system, where i've made a huge commitment to investigating about, and then investing in, state of the art digital and it's really got to a whole new level of correctness to my ears. but also i've found new levels of musical satisfaction with my own combination of vinyl pieces taking me farther.

i cannot say at all about what other vinyl choices (vintage, contemporary or brand new) that might do the same or better (now or 5 or 10 years ago). in fact, i would expect that there is better vinyl than mine to some degree (but maybe not......i've just not heard enough of what is out there to say). i can have more confidence that my digital is at the top level of what can be done.

like i said; digital is better, but so is my vinyl (i do think that generally there are more top level vinyl pieces to choose from than ever before).

as far as the gap narrowing; my feeling is that digital had it's share of shortcomings which pushed people away. it was very inconsistent. and as that has really changed quite a bit whereas now there are lots of really great dacs out there, that needing vinyl for listening pleasure is much less an issue. almost not an issue at all. and that is the way in which the gap has closed. no apologies now need be given.

 

[Lagonda]

Sorry, Lagonda, I am hearing what is considered top analog on a regular basis in my friends' systems, and it seems to be competently set up (which in itself can be tricky business as you know), so I don't think I am at a disadvantage here in terms of experience.

You have never heard a "people in the room" sound with your digital? I do with mine frequently, on suitable recordings. Either that, or a "you are there" sound. Since I have not heard your system, I cannot judge if your digital setup is somehow lacking in comparison with what I would expect. I did on some occasions hear the Yggdrasil 2 sound with suboptimal performance elsewhere, when I knew it shouldn't -- and on those occasions I greatly preferred the analog. High end is complicated.

I really like the Yggdrasil and tried a variety of digital cables and transports some costing 10 times what the Yggdrasil does, using it for over a months. This was a direct comparison in the same high resolution system, in a fairly large dedicated listening room, not a listen at a friends house. It is a great dac and a no brain choice for me, it gives me an approximation of what digital can do without killing my bank account. I’m sure Mike or Francisco’s digital is on a other level, but i would rather put my money towards exceptional analog gear

 

[Al M.]

It is one of the dangers of using real music in concerts as a reference - we start appreciating more digital for the closer approach to real music and start neglecting the "magic".

That has always been a main problem with the whole analog vs digital debate. It should have been analog vs digital vs (unamplified) live music instead, with the latter providing a grounding and anchor to the debate.

Otherwise it's often just about preferences, "pleasing sounds" and some elusive "magic".

To be sure, also in such a more anchored context a lot of the criticism of earlier digital would have been justified, but at the same time some more criticism might have been directed at analog as well.

And especially now a closer look at both media in the context of unamplified live music as reference seems more relevant than ever.

 

[PeterA]

You shouldn’t bring apples to an orange tossing event Milan you never know which way the fruit salad will go.

I love that there is passionate advocacy for our various endeavours. I would think it wonderful if we could constantly seek to get a better definition of the inherent sonic and experiential differences between topologies... not just digital and analogue but different speaker types, amp types, materials in cables etc. and not always get caught up in which is better.

There are characteristic traits and types and potentials and constraints that come out of fundamental electrical and mechanical elements in the different approaches. These are just different perspective views of the same thing. It is in the nature of the limits of any context that sets these in place. We can’t view the whole from everywhere simultaneously unless we are in the music rather than just being in the room.

Marrying understanding of the relationship between the contextual and the experiential is in many ways more valuable and relevant than just our preferences in these at any rate. Juice sayin.

I agree, and is this not what Ron is contending that Paul is disputing about analog and digital? If I understand it correctly, Paul is suggesting that the whole notion of an "analog sound" and a "digital sound" is antiquated, no longer meaningful. Or is he suggesting something else? We are all discussing preferences which is not what Ron started this thread about. From what I read, those with both mediums, clearly prefer analog. And there are plenty of digital only guys who prefer digital or hear little or no difference. But Paul is going way beyond that now and telling us that the language describing what we all hear must change.

Ron, what do you think?

 

[Al M.]

From what I read, those with both mediums, clearly prefer analog.

Some of those with both mediums, not all of them, even in just this discussion.

 

[Elliot G.]

digital does nothing analog cannot do.......

and my comments were relative to my own system, where i've made a huge commitment to investigating about, and then investing in, state of the art digital and it's really got to a whole new level of correctness to my ears. but also i've found new levels of musical satisfaction with my own combination of vinyl pieces taking me farther.

i cannot say at all about what other vinyl choices (vintage, contemporary or brand new) that might do the same or better (now or 5 or 10 years ago). in fact, i would expect that there is better vinyl than mine to some degree (but maybe not......i've just not heard enough of what is out there to say). i can have more confidence that my digital is at the top level of what can be done.

like i said; digital is better, but so is my vinyl (i do think that generally there are more top level vinyl pieces to choose from than ever before).

as far as the gap narrowing; my feeling is that digital had it's share of shortcomings which pushed people away. it was very inconsistent. and as that has really changed quite a bit whereas now there are lots of really great dacs out there, that needing vinyl for listening pleasure is much less an issue. almost not an issue at all. and that is the way in which the gap has closed. no apologies now need be given.

This is the same old debate and yet there are factors which are just not addressed on this site.
All audio is not equal whether its analog or digital. There are levels of quality and many want to lump them all together so the good, great, excellent and the exceptional are all the same.
In digital which I use and am up to date, which I am not on analog so I make no comments since I have only experienced a few pieces, the sound has grown exponentially over the last decade and the playing field has changed big time. For those who have not heard the cutting edge pieces then their experiences are just not current and their opinions not relevant. No one mistakes a Rega for an Airforce one etc but in digital this happens all the time.
The MSB Select, CH C1.1 mono stack with clock and power supplies, The Big Wadax are to me redefining what digital is capable of. These are at a level which I believe transcends the rest of the market TODAY. There are others that are very good but they are not at this altitude. Sorry to those I will piss off but as I said all audio is not equal and the edge of the audio universe is constantly changing and in the near future I am sure it will move again. A great system is also tuned with the gear you have in the room it sits.
Let the hate begin

 

[PeterA]

Sorry, Lagonda, I am hearing what is considered top analog on a regular basis in my friends' systems, and it seems to be competently set up (which in itself can be tricky business as you know), so I don't think I am at a disadvantage here in terms of experience.

Al, I think few would consider my system to be top analog, so perhaps you should exclude that from your assessments. I can't speak to the other vinyl systems to which you may be referring. Speaking for myself, I have not heard what is considered top digital. Paul's contention seems to be generic analog and digital. Do we need to refer to what is considered "top" to make sense of what Paul is suggesting?

 

[PeterA]

I always associated the sound of digital as a 'crispness'; and extra bit of bright way up on top. And if you look at how aliasing occurs, this seems to make sense. Analog simply does not have that 'crispness'.

Crispness is a polite way of describing it. My body responds differently when I hear digital and analog. One is more relaxing.

 

[BlueFox]

I wonder what is the turntable “magic”? It certainly isn’t trying to move the arm to only listen to the decent songs. It certainly isn’t having to clean the stylus. It certainly isn’t having to balance the arm. It certainly isn’t having to get up every 20 minutes to flip the album, or change the album. It certainly isn’t the pops and clicks. It certainly isn’t the price of a new album. It certainly isn’t trying to clean an album. It certainly isn’t the compression and limited frequency response.

To each their own. I have been through that phase and have no desire to return to it. Now I just listen to uninterrupted music for hours.

 

[Al M.]

Al, I think few would consider my system to be top analog, so perhaps you should exclude that from your assessments. I can't speak to the other vinyl systems to which you may be referring. Speaking for myself, I have not heard what is considered top digital. Paul's contention seems to be generic analog and digital. Do we need to refer to what is considered "top" to make sense of what Paul is suggesting?

Peter, maybe we are starting to split hairs about what is what, but perhaps I should not have used the term "top" nonetheless. I was responding to Lagonda who was talking about comparing digital with "really good analog", and probably I should have used that term as well.

 

[howiebrou]

Every time i listen to digital i feel that digital has matched analog. There is a sense of realism that i didn't feel years ago. That feeling often vanishes though when you switch to analog and realise that it is even more realistic.

 

[howiebrou]

I wonder what is the turntable “magic”? It certainly isn’t trying to move the arm to only listen to the decent songs. It certainly isn’t having to clean the stylus. It certainly isn’t having to balance the arm. It certainly isn’t having to get up every 20 minutes to flip the album, or change the album. It certainly isn’t the pops and clicks. It certainly isn’t the price of a new album. It certainly isn’t trying to clean an album. It certainly isn’t the compression and limited frequency response.

To each their own. I have been through that phase and have no desire to return to it. Now I just listen to uninterrupted music for hours.

You are correct. It's not any of those things. It's the sum of all the parts. I have to admit i quite enjoy the routine. There is a feeling of achievement in getting sound. May be i could replicate that with digital by tying two bricks to my ipad!

 

[tima]

Crispness is a polite way of describing it.

Nervousness.

 

[Lagonda]

Al, I think few would consider my system to be top analog, so perhaps you should exclude that from your assessments. I can't speak to the other vinyl systems to which you may be referring. Speaking for myself, I have not heard what is considered top digital. Paul's contention seems to be generic analog and digital. Do we need to refer to what is considered "top" to make sense of what Paul is suggesting?

Peter you are always humble You do have a great analog setup ! And you are not afraid to mix it up a little and try new things to get the sound you aspire to. With ddk advising chances of success are damned good, his inspiration and advice has surely helped me get better analog, even without breaking the bank. When i grow up i want to be like Tang and own a AS2000, there is something special about the sound of a heavy air bearing TT with a really powerful motor

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Every time i listen to digital i feel that digital has matched analog. There is a sense of realism that i didn't feel years ago. That feeling often vanishes though when you switch to analog and realise that it is even more realistic.

exactly.

 

[Lagonda]

Every time i listen to digital i feel that digital has matched analog. There is a sense of realism that i didn't feel years ago. That feeling often vanishes though when you switch to analog and realise that it is even more realistic.

Amen ! I’m listening to Springsteen live doing a revival style introduction of the his E Street band, live on vinyl , Halleluja I’m feeling inspired !

 

[Ron Resnick]

I wonder what is the turntable “magic”? It certainly isn’t trying to move the arm to only listen to the decent songs. It certainly isn’t having to clean the stylus. It certainly isn’t having to balance the arm. It certainly isn’t having to get up every 20 minutes to flip the album, or change the album. It certainly isn’t the pops and clicks. It certainly isn’t the price of a new album. It certainly isn’t trying to clean an album.

. . .

On this thread we are debating solely sonics, so this post strikes me as snotty. Rather than ducking and parrying with an irrelevant point about convenience, maybe you can articulate why you experience a greater suspension of disbelief with digital playback than you do with analog playback (assuming you do, and that you don't prefer digital for its ease of use).

 

[Lagonda]

I wonder what is the turntable “magic”? It certainly isn’t trying to move the arm to only listen to the decent songs. It certainly isn’t having to clean the stylus. It certainly isn’t having to balance the arm. It certainly isn’t having to get up every 20 minutes to flip the album, or change the album. It certainly isn’t the pops and clicks. It certainly isn’t the price of a new album. It certainly isn’t trying to clean an album. It certainly isn’t the compression and limited frequency response.

To each their own. I have been through that phase and have no desire to return to it. Now I just listen to uninterrupted music for hours.

I listen to albums, not songs, i like the rituals between albums, and consider picking albums, cleaning and cuing before the needle drop foreplay not inconvenience On the other hand, i consider foreplay a inconvenience