The Sound of Analog, the Sound of Digital

tima

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Are (the sound of) "analog" and (the sound of) "digital" antiquated terms?

Let's give the link so we don't have to keep looking up the blog post; fortunately the article is brief:
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-meaning-of-analog/

The more often I read that blog post the less of a case it makes. It is not an argument or if someone thinks it is, it begs the question, simply assuming an answer to a question that McG never asks.

Ron's formulation of that post and McGowans conclusion - "There's no such thing as the sound of analog and digital." - amount to confusion. (Ron is limited by the material he's given to work with.) What are the antiquated terms? Quotes and parentheticals add to the confusion.

"the sound of analog" (SoA) , "the sound of digital" (SoD)
In context, I take these to mean the sound a stereo system makes when you play an AAA record or a tape vs the sound a stereo system makes when it processes a set of digits however those maybe instantiated (disc, file, stream, etc.) I leave the digitally sourced LP for another day.

We can ostensively point to the systems as they play. Presumably we can ostensively point to the vibrations in the air as the systems emit them. "There", he points his finger "is the sound of an analog record playing." The words aren't antiquated. Declaring terms by fiat as antiquated is here like burning books to settle a claim.

"There’s no such thing as the sound of analog and digital." McG exclaims. There is his argument. So in McG's world we listen to "the sound of reproduced music". I guess he can't tell the difference, but it's his blog. If what he's really doing is trying to stop stupid threads like this, I'm afraid it didn't work.

What I think McG really wants to talk about is the perception or experience of the SoA and SoD. Are they indistinquishable? Identical? If we can't differentiate them, then no need for two different words for the same thing. So, McGowan may be right - for those to whom the SoA and SoD are identical when that group talks among themselves, they don't need those terms.

But obviously as witnessed by this thread some (many?) people can hear a difference between SoA and SoD.

And it seems some folks want to make a slightly different case than McGs, namely "The SoD is just as good as the SoA". Some go so far as saying "The SoD is better than the SoA." (Yes and vice versa.) And they want ardently for others to believe them. Ime, the digerati can be somewhat defensive on this issue, but that's okay. Some want to say "I get pleasure/enjoyment from both the SoA and the SoD." Sure, fine by me. But the terms stay.
 

BlueFox

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On this thread we are debating solely sonics, so this post strikes me as snotty. Rather than ducking and parrying with an irrelevant point about convenience, maybe you can articulate why you experience a greater suspension of disbelief with digital playback than you do with analog playback (assuming you do, and that you don't prefer digital for its ease of use).

Why did you edit my response? You omitted "It certainly isn’t the compression and limited frequency response. ".

Everything I mentioned is related to sonics. What you experience influences what you hear.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Why did you edit my response? You omitted "It certainly isn’t the compression and limited frequency response. ".

Everything I mentioned is related to sonics. What you experience influences what you hear.

I was trying to strengthen your argument for you. Obviously analog aficionados don't hear compression and limited frequency response. They experience a greater suspension of disbelief with analog than they do with digital. I know I do.
 
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BlueFox

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Okay, got it. I probably could have phrased my post better.
 
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on tape you can also listen to whole albums uninterrupted without ticks and pops
and it beats the hell out of vinyl for sheer realism
a funny thing about our brain is that we have selective hearing and subconsciously surpress the pops and clicks and listen to the music
I´m also good with listening to digital, but once I move to analogue there´s no way back in the same session
that´s why I always demo my system digital, vinyl, tape

the same as digital source applies to dsp based systems...never heard one that gave me the shivers
 
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the sound of Tao

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I agree, and is this not what Ron is contending that Paul is disputing about analog and digital? If I understand it correctly, Paul is suggesting that the whole notion of an "analog sound" and a "digital sound" is antiquated, no longer meaningful. Or is he suggesting something else? We are all discussing preferences which is not what Ron started this thread about. From what I read, those with both mediums, clearly prefer analog. And there are plenty of digital only guys who prefer digital or hear little or no difference. But Paul is going way beyond that now and telling us that the language describing what we all hear must change.

Ron, what do you think?
I’m thinking something David said earlier about the sound of PS components making the differences less distinguishable for Paul’s experience and then how that informs his opinions may play in here Peter.

In many ways people can try to frame their experience as then the only possible reality.

I do find people’s preferences here can derail the discussion in what the differences actually are though I am loving the lack of default instant flaming that seems to have largely disappeared from a topic that was so evident and predictable in it even just 4 or 5 years ago.

The heat going out of it I feel may relate to greater respect for the poles of these different positions and may in particular reflect improvements with digital in regards to it’s capacity to be essentially more musical and more natural now than it was not that long ago. That timeframe doesn’t carry over to analogue or perhaps SET because they’ve always had easier access to that capability. Certainly digital and solid state are more recent arrivals to that capacity.

So while discovering people’s preferences can be initially enlightening once that’s established as a data point it kind of loses its power to bring then much more to the table.

I am very much also of the belief that different topologies have clear archetypal themes and tendencies to characteristics that reflect their fundamental design approach and materiality and make their setup and their strengths and weaknesses also related to type as well as being further individuated by their own specific design parameters.

We do assign an understanding and a perception of a thing based upon our earlier experiences of that thing or it’s familiars so retention also informs experience and that can also be predicated by our expected anticipation of an experience as expressed in concepts of phenomenology.

So it would be awesome to have a working group of highly experienced audiophiles just focus on definition of these experiences. To do that it would need to be a group of people who at a level recognise or register that there are characteristic differences of type.

Also what does it actually say that some perceive shared topology characteristics and that some don’t. Certainly for me not that anyone is wrong but rather that the individual ways of perceiving could essentially be different. That is something that would also be a good topic for discussion. I know that I perceive things in a very specific way and that there is zero specialness in that distinction. I can define my areas of focus and also that I have made a conscious effort to optimise my system for the way I tend to experience listening and the way I want to experience listening. It took me a great deal of time to realise that people just do listen in different ways and states for quite different things and it is a combination of states for most that can be experienced through a series of sharp changes.

Realising that we are not continuous or singular in our consciousness or our unconsciousness is an important part of then analysing how to better (and more consciously) design our systems for our own needs. We are very higgeldy piggeldy in our processes given just how invested and sensitive and demanding we can be in our expectations of these experiences. It would be good to better understand them still. Arguing over which is therefore better or preferable may well just get in the way of that.
 
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213Cobra

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When Ry Cooder's "Bop Till You Drop" album was released in 1979, it was the first major-label digital recording. But not how younger people might think. It was recorded on a 32 channel digital tape machine built by 3M, with digital and analog mastering steps before being fed to a cutting lathe so analog-playback LPs could be made.. It had a sound different from anything ever put on vinyl before it. Cold, bright, spatially-flattened, immediate, fast, gnawing sound. We didn't know it for sure at the time, but we were being introduced a "digital sound" as quite apart from analog sound even though its replay was entirely analog.This was three years before the introduction of the CD in the US in 1982. That "Bop" exemplified digital sound was demonstrated when the CD was finally introduced and vinyl "Bop" sounded much more like the new medium than the 12" plastic reigning-champ medium it was pressed on.

Pretty much from 1982 through about 2002, that sonic digital-analog divide warranted the language McGowan is now questioning. Just when engineers began to understand how to properly allow R2R ladder DACs to convey a more natural digital presentation, mass economics tilted industry preference (and chip supplies) to delta-sigma processors. Setback. Once-positive sonic trends in digital worsened for awhile. During that period, as digital only incrementally improved (in both hardware and software) analog getting closer to the sound of live music was a daily-proven given. Then, the vinyl revival put a lot of new digital music on vinyl discs, confusing the difference. More to the point, it seems that for the past 20 years at least, newer phono cartridge "innovators" have as often as not designed their transducers to a brittle, bright digital sensibility rather than an organic one with tone and flow. No wonder began an SPU and Koetsu revival!

Since the mid-2000s, however, more musically-informed engineering talent has been applied to digital music. More designers are tempering raw engineering with listening before release. We're not slaves to 16/44. For people outside our audiophile realm, compressed files and then compressed streaming have dulled interest and discernibility wrt sound quality. THAT digital signature is a lot different from the digital sound that prompted the divided references in the first place. The return of high quality R2R, NOS DACs, and better delta-sigma models, FPGA processors and more serious post-DAC analog output sections have collectively narrowed the differences considerably. There are now digital experiences that would have been considered "analog" not too many years ago. At the same time, some producers in the vinyl resurgence era have also upped their game from capture through to pressing quality, so that digital strengths in bass quality and non-intrusive noise floor are approached or closely hewed to.

Now, from a strict fidelity reference to live music, both types of capture and reproduction are at best equally wrong. But still for the most part you can get more of the intrinsic organic continuity and flow for less cash from analog than from digital. A lot of very young new entrants into this world may not notice nor care, however.

For most people here, enough age is represented that "analog" and "digital" references will likely have comparative utility for some years to come. But I hear enough wrong in both methods I am more interested in, and comment on, "convincing musicality," musical authenticity," etc. The reason for this is that analog isn't always great at either. For instance, much more often than analog v. digital, I notice a divide roughly bounded as pre-1963 and the time since. The culprit being the surge in multi-mic'ing, multi-tracking and time-shifted tracks compared to the earlier era of relatively simple mic'ing, no more than needed, and the performers were in the studio together at the same time. The efficiency and tech-enabled creative shift to multi-tracking, complex mic'ing, asynchronous laying of tracks, etc. opened up new artistic possibilities ala "Sgt. Pepper.." but also resulted in worse sound on complex, multiple-simultaneous-events music. Those older albums recorded with minimal numbers of mics, often large diaphragm types, in studios with vacuum tube consoles, had a big, organic, space-projecting, dynamic sound. The shift to great numbers of recordings to multi-track complex techniques introduced a "pre-digital" degradation in convincing sound quality while greatly expanding the creative potential of recorded music. The studio and its technology-enablement became an instrument itself.

It took engineers about ten years to really grok stereo as an advance over mono. Quad in all its forms failed to launch beyond the gimmick stage. Digital was a new challenge few people understood at the time. It took most of 20 years for everyone in the music arts chain to fully grok it and make it a contender qualitatively, despite it having won the commercial war in its first 5 or 6 years. Analog still wins more dedicated music listening hours from me than digital, if I exclude the modest amount of time I stream Tidal Hifi while multi-tasking.

The two recording and playback processes are now both able to produce convincing, credible sound, when the base material is up to it. At first, people liked "Bop Till You Drop" because they were supposed to like it -- it was the future! Soon enough, they noticed they couldn't listen to it -- nor wanted to -- as often as Ry's earlier, more relaxed analog recordings. "Bop's" immediate predecessor was "Jazz," a juicy record with flow. But on "Bop," the admitted high standard of musicianship was obscured by the pain of the record's digital hash and relentless ice-picking. Even in the era of the 13kHz tweeter speaker, one couldn't help but notice.

Sonny Rollins' "Way Out West" and The Beatles' "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" were separated by a decade. No matter what one thinks about the creative freedom on "Pepper's," that newer album sounds worse than "West" in every way that's pertinent to convincing musicality. If digital had existed for the Beatles in 1967, it wouldn't have influenced that outcome. There are fidelity and qualitative drivers larger than the analog-digital divide. Believe it or not, there were people who lamented the passing of the 78 after the debut of the LP and 45. Wide as it seemed at the outset, I think the digital-analog difference was and certainly now is smaller than all those other transitions mentioned. What did not happen in digital music is that it never got on the Moore's Law innovation and capacity curve. Great digital became ridiculously expensive and still is, though near-great digital is much more accessible than 20 years ago. Real innovation has been slow. CPU density and performance gains in general computing are not aggressively tapped in digital music. And at the end of the day, digital needs analog output. For audio, in technical terms, it takes a village.

Phil
 
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Al M.

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When Ry Cooder's "Bop Till You Drop" album was released in 1979, it was the first major-label digital recording. But not how younger people might think. It was recorded on a 32 channel digital tape machine built by 3M, with digital and analog mastering steps before being fed to a cutting lathe so analog-playback LPs could be made.. It had a sound different from anything ever put on vinyl before it. Cold, bright, spatially-flattened, immediate, fast, gnawing sound. We didn't know it for sure at the time, but we were being introduced a "digital sound" as quite apart from analog sound even though its replay was entirely analog.This was three years before the introduction of the CD in the US in 1982. That "Bop" exemplified digital sound was demonstrated when the CD was finally introduced and vinyl "Bop" sounded much more like the new medium than the 12" plastic reigning-champ medium it was pressed on.

Pretty much from 1982 through about 2002, that sonic digital-analog divide warranted the language McGowan is now questioning. Just when engineers began to understand how to properly allow R2R ladder DACs to convey a more natural digital presentation, mass economics tilted industry preference (and chip supplies) to delta-sigma processors. Setback. Once positive sonic trends in digital worsened for awhile. During that period, as digital only incrementally improved (in both hardware and software) analog getting closer to the sound of live music was a daily-proven given. Then, the vinyl revival put a lot of new digital music on vinyl discs, confusing the difference. More to the point, it seems that for the past 20 years at least, newer phono cartridge "innovators" have as often as not designed their transducers to a brittle, bright digital sensibility rather than an organic one with tone and flow. No wonder began an SPU and Koetsu revival!

Since the mid-2000s, however, more musically-informed engineering talent has been applied to digital music. More designers are tempering raw engineering with listening before release. We're not slaves to 16/44. For people outside our audiophile realm, compressed files and then compressed streaming have dulled interest and discernibility wrt sound quality. THAT digital signature is a lot different from the digital sound that prompted the divided references in the first place. The return of high quality R2R, NOS DACs, and better delta-sigma models, FPGA processors and more serious post-DAC analog output sections have collectively narrowed the differences considerably. There are now digital experiences that would have been considered "analog" not too many years ago. At the same time, some producers in the vinyl resurgence era have also upped their game from capture through to pressing quality, so that digital strengths in bass quality and non-intrusive noise floor are approached or closely hewed to.

Now, from a strict fidelity reference to live music, both types of capture and reproduction are at best equally wrong. But still for the most part you can get more of the intrinsic organic continuity and flow for less cash from analog than from digital. A lot of very young new entrants into this world may not notice nor care, however.

For most people here, enough age is represented that "analog" and "digital" references will likely have comparative utility for some years to come. But I hear enough wrong in both methods I am more interested in, and comment on, "convincing musicality," musical authenticity," etc. The reason for this is that analog isn't always great at either. For instance, much more often than analog v. digital, I notice a divide roughly bounded as pre-1963 and the time since. The culprit being the surge in multi-mic'ing, multi-tracking and time-shifted tracks compared to the earlier era of relatively simple mic'ing, no more than needed, and the performers were in the studio together at the same time. The efficiency and tech-enabled creative shift to multi-tracking, complex mic'ing, asynchronous laying of tracks, etc. opened up new artistic possibilities ala "Sgt. Pepper.." but also resulted in worse sound on complex, multiple-simultaneous-events music. Those older albums recorded with minimal numbers of mics, often large diaphragm types, in studios with vacuum tube consoles, had a big, organic, space-projecting, dynamic sound. The shift to great numbers of recordings to multi-track complex techniques introduced a "pre-digital" degradation in convincing sound quality while greatly expanding the creative potential of recorded music. The studio and its technology-enablement became an instrument itself.

It took engineers about ten years to really grok stereo as an advance over mono. Quad in all its forms failed to launch beyond the gimmick stage. Digital was a new challenge few people understood at the time. It took most of 20 years for everyone in the music arts chain to fully grok it and make it a contender qualitatively, despite it having won the commercial war in its first 5 or 6 years. Analog still wins more dedicated music listening hours from me than digital, if I exclude the modest amount of time I stream Tidal Hifi while multi-tasking.

The two recording and playback processes are now both able to produce convincing, credible sound, when the base material is up to it. At first, people liked "Bop Till You Drop" because they were supposed to like it -- it was the future! Soon enough, they noticed they couldn't listen to it -- nor wanted to -- as often as Ry's earlier, more relaxed analog recordings. "Bop's" immediate predecessor was "Jazz," a juicy record with flow. But on "Bop," the admitted high standard of musicianship was obscured by the pain of the record's digital hash and relentless ice-picking. Even in the era of the 13kHz tweeter speaker, one couldn't help but notice.

Sonny Rollins' "Way Out West" and The Beatles' "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" were separated by a decade. No matter what one thinks about the creative freedom on "Pepper's," that newer album sounds worse than "West" in every way that's pertinent to convincing musicality. If digital had existed for the Beatles in 1967, it wouldn't have influenced that outcome. There are fidelity and qualitative drivers larger than the analog-digital divide. Believe it or not, there were people who lamented the passing of the 78 after the debut of the LP and 45. Wide as it seemed at the outset, I think the digital-analog difference was and certainly now is smaller than all those other transitions mentioned. What did not happen in digital music is that it never got on the Moore's Law innovation and capacity curve. Great digital became ridiculously expensive and still is, though near-great digital is much more accessible than 20 years ago. Real innovation has been slow. CPU density and performance gains in general computing are not aggressively tapped in digital music. And at the end of the day, digital needs analog output. For audio, in technical terms, it takes a village.

Phil

Great post!

Lots of valid points in this compelling capture of the big picture (even though I don't agree with every detail).
 

Ron Resnick

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I agree, and is this not what Ron is contending that Paul is disputing about analog and digital? If I understand it correctly, Paul is suggesting that the whole notion of an "analog sound" and a "digital sound" is antiquated, no longer meaningful. Or is he suggesting something else? We are all discussing preferences which is not what Ron started this thread about. From what I read, those with both mediums, clearly prefer analog. And there are plenty of digital only guys who prefer digital or hear little or no difference. But Paul is going way beyond that now and telling us that the language describing what we all hear must change.

Ron, what do you think?

Hi Peter,

In my opening post I was seeking to report objectively Paul's contention without advancing any contention of my own.

Are you asking what I think subjectively about the substance of Paul's contention?
 
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Ron Resnick

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A history of analog versus digital recording tour de force, Phil, which seems very accurate to me! Thank you!
 

Lagonda

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Hi Peter,

In my opening post I was seeking to report objectively Paul's contention without advancing any contention of my own.

Are you asking what I think subjectively about the substance of Paul's contention?
Where you by chance the Captain of your debate team Ron ?;)
 
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Ron Resnick

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Ron Resnick

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I disagree with Paul's contention. I think the terms have importance, relevance and enduring meaning today. Words are useful only to the extent they help us distinguish certain things from other things. And I think "analog" and "digital" continue to help us distinguish a lot.

Paul is entitled to his subjective view that the sound of analog and the sound of digital have merged such that they have become redundant synonyms. I was so shocked by Paul's declaration last year that he prefers the sound of digital to the sound of analog that I opened this thread at that time:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/paul-mcgowan-prefers-digital.27508/

Paul's linguistic point yesterday seems to be his evolution of this underlying premise.

I also disagree with Paul's underlying premise -- that digital today provides a more emotionally satisfying and a more believable reproduction of recorded music than does analog.
 

Kingsrule

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[QUOTE="Ron Resnick, post: 662369, member: 6496" They experience a greater suspension of disbelief with analog than they do with digital. I know I do.[/QUOTE]

100% spot on. The point however is do u hear this "suspension of disbelief" when u attend a music performance? I know I don't. And if all you analogue guys were truthful you would say you don't. Analogue is wonderful, our foundation that we started with for sound reproduction, but is ultimately not real.....
 

Ron Resnick

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[QUOTE="Ron Resnick, post: 662369, member: 6496" They experience a greater suspension of disbelief with analog than they do with digital. I know I do.

100% spot on. The point however is do u hear this "suspension of disbelief" when u attend a music performance?

. . . [/QUOTE]

Of course not. There is no disbelief to suspend during a live music performance.
 

Ron Resnick

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100% spot on. The point however is do u hear this "suspension of disbelief" when u attend a music performance? I know I don't. And if all you analogue guys were truthful you would say you don't. Analogue is wonderful, our foundation that we started with for sound reproduction, but is ultimately not real.....


Respectfully, to suggest that analog devotees are untruthful to you or to themselves suggests to me that you are trying too hard to defend your digital sound preference and to justify your digital-only system.
 
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morricab

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A history of analog versus digital recording tour de force, Phil, which seems very accurate to me! Thank you!

Even before the switch from analog to digital in studios, there was a transition from tube to transistors and many engineers at the time noted a signficant drop in sound quality from the older tube laden studio gear. An album like Way Out West was recorded all with tubes...AND analog.
 
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morricab

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I disagree with Paul's contention. I think the terms have importance, relevance and enduring meaning today. Words are useful only to the extent they help us distinguish certain things from other things. And I think "analog" and "digital" continue to help us distinguish a lot.

Paul is entitled to his subjective view that the sound of analog and the sound of digital have merged such that they have become redundant synonyms. I was so shocked by Paul's declaration last year that he prefers the sound of digital to the sound of analog that I opened this thread at that time:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/paul-mcgowan-prefers-digital.27508/

Paul's linguistic point yesterday seems to be his evolution of this underlying premise.

I also disagree with Paul's underlying premise -- that digital today provides a more emotionally satisfying and a more believable reproduction of recorded music than does analog.
Well put Ron.
 

Kingsrule

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Respectfully, to suggest that analog devotees are untruthful to you or to themselves suggests to me that you are trying too hard to defend your digital sound preference and to justify your digital-only system.

Actually, that's exactly what most of the analogue guys do, over and over and over.... I'm stating a global fact
And Ron, I don't need to "defend" my preferences to anyone
 
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