That excellent Heil AMT Mid/Tweeter driver deserves a full range dipole foundation very badly
You have the Quintet and I have the Kithara, your place or mine?
the sound of tao - some video shares
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You have the Quintet and I have the Kithara, your place or mine?
Just did a quick measure up Christoph, not sure that the Quintets at 2150mm and 70 kilos each will qualify as carry on luggage
The Heil AMT drivers are quite manageable in comparisonJust did a quick measure up Christoph, not sure that the Quintets at 2150mm and 70 kilos each will qualify as carry on luggage
So it has to be your place
Even better
Hi Graham,I really liked the Pap speakers and the essential concept behind them from the start. Two way OB horn was a fascinating concept to me. These are designed as modular in concept and also designed to a price point but then allow exploration of different drivers, wiring and xover components as well. So for me the chance to explore all this and learn about horns was perfect.
I spent maybe about a year getting to know the original Pap trio speaker and getting it closer to what I felt was a version of it’s best for me. I got what I feel is a great balance of attributes. It’s energy and nature work on a wide range of music. But I felt it was a best fit for music at medium large through to more intimate scales. On the largest scale works and in larger space it was still good but just not as convincing as it was in playing more moderate scaled music where it has great believability.
So now going to a larger design is for me essentially about getting a speaker designed to energise larger rooms and also engage better with the larger scales of music. More effortless when the going gets big.
Also for me getting to the rightness of a thing is the challenge and horns are such fantastically subtle and nuanced instruments. As both these are still two way OB both keep it simple and in terms of coherence both are really great which is a quality I find immediately obvious when it’s missing.
The trio was designed to be modular and within a brief that invited people to explore modifying some of it’s parts. So easy to change an element and hear the nature of the change and understand the outcome and what it means to the music. It has taught me a good deal about the impacts in changing parts and changing or shaping sound... and then how that sound then shapes musical experience.
Most designers I know engage in the design process because of wanting to explore an understanding of something including getting some sense of the purpose and in the meaning and experience of things. It is very much the same for me. I essentially like to explore the nature of change itself. Also the way these experiences are then phenomenal. The nature of change in the parts and the whole and then how that characteristic nature then shapes experience. So the Pap speakers are a great platform for that.
Also I grew up in a world of analogue both in records and reel to reel and also analogue bikes and analogue pinball, analogue pool and snooker and luckily have a good mate close by who has a couple of turntables, big horns and a couple of pinball machines. For me all wonderfully mechanical and I will always be very much drawn to all of that
Rereading the posts I'm a little puzzled as to what we're listening to in these videos. Are both these videos of the same PAP Trio 15, one stock and one with your crossover or one of them is the Quintet modified or stock? Are you just playing around with parts exchanges in the crossovers or you're making other modifications to the speakers?
david
Hi David,
The videos that are shot at 90 degrees are of the new Quintets 15 (shown with the 4 woofers per side) during initial running in and the second (comparison) videos shot landscape format are the same earlier recordings that were made with the Trio 15 (2 woofers per side) configuration after I’d fairly much optimised it.
The primary initial changes I’ve made (to each) are a mix of crossover and hookup cable upgrades. I have changed caps and resistors out for better spec (and characteristics) Mundorf and Pathaudio and also remounted them both as external crossovers set up on bamboo boards.
Once I’ve got some measure of the new Quintets and the impact of the additional woofers, baffle area and mass that comes with that as a platform I’ll next move then on to introduce different compression drivers also and possibly different horns or wave guides as well and ultimately aim to end up eventually with two different speakers with (depending on outcome) with different roles based on most likely scale/type of music. The outcome isn’t fixed but thinking one speaker will be primary and maybe more for dedicated listening and the other secondary and in the upstairs area which is to be more a shared listening eating open plan space.
I have two types of crossover at this stage that I can also try in with the woofers wired as parallel or series configuration in the new Quintet speakers. It also allows me to try the speakers if I want as three way options or 2.5 way (or possibly with OB subs) but I do like two way coherency and at this early stage am not wanting any more extension with either at any rate.
I have gone with some new cable that I ordered in when I started the new project and as of the last few days have got it installed and now using it as hookup cable and trialled it initially on the wide ranger horns in the Quintet. It is a cable that I used in making up some long runs of IC three or 4 months ago that for me was improvement over the existing cable I have used in terms of just being less in the way of the sound and the music and more immediate and natural. This same quality has come through with the wide ranger horn in the Quintet already but I’ll play it in to confirm either way.
Next up is to then make a pair of speaker cables with this same wire and if it keeps working as well as with the other new cables possibly eventually swap to one consistent cable throughout for the Quintets from amp and xover through to drivers.
Everything I trial through some time and each change is allowed time to settle it all in which is giving me time to appreciate what that is doing in part and in whole. So the cable change will take me a month or two to get a fuller gauge on at least. I’ll get the Quintets fully run in (the 15 inch woofers do appreciably free up over some months) and also get the other horn drivers in and established before I make any other changes to the gear which will likely then be some upgrades to output and driver tubes in the SET amps.
The plan is largely open ended and where I’ll end up is moveable. I do use music appreciation as my guide. I can atomise and analyse when I have to but mostly I’m essentially holistic in whether I’m at rightness or moving towards it or away from it. If I break this and find I’m becoming musically disengaged with either speaker project I can always just head back to where I was previously. So analysis happens periodically when needed. The changes are always intended to build towards less and less awareness about what is going on with the gear and just more towards what is going on with the music.
The videos that are shot at 90 degrees are of the new Quintets 15 (shown with the 4 woofers per side) during initial running in and the second (comparison) videos shot landscape format are the same earlier recordings that were made with the Trio 15 (2 woofers per side) configuration after I’d fairly much optimised it.
The primary initial changes I’ve made (to each) are a mix of crossover and hookup cable upgrades. I have changed caps and resistors out for better spec (and characteristics) Mundorf and Pathaudio and also remounted them both as external crossovers set up on bamboo boards.
Once I’ve got some measure of the new Quintets and the impact of the additional woofers, baffle area and mass that comes with that as a platform I’ll next move then on to introduce different compression drivers also and possibly different horns or wave guides as well and ultimately aim to end up eventually with two different speakers with (depending on outcome) with different roles based on most likely scale/type of music. The outcome isn’t fixed but thinking one speaker will be primary and maybe more for dedicated listening and the other secondary and in the upstairs area which is to be more a shared listening eating open plan space.
I have two types of crossover at this stage that I can also try in with the woofers wired as parallel or series configuration in the new Quintet speakers. It also allows me to try the speakers if I want as three way options or 2.5 way (or possibly with OB subs) but I do like two way coherency and at this early stage am not wanting any more extension with either at any rate.
I have gone with some new cable that I ordered in when I started the new project and as of the last few days have got it installed and now using it as hookup cable and trialled it initially on the wide ranger horns in the Quintet. It is a cable that I used in making up some long runs of IC three or 4 months ago that for me was improvement over the existing cable I have used in terms of just being less in the way of the sound and the music and more immediate and natural. This same quality has come through with the wide ranger horn in the Quintet already but I’ll play it in to confirm either way.
Next up is to then make a pair of speaker cables with this same wire and if it keeps working as well as with the other new cables possibly eventually swap to one consistent cable throughout for the Quintets from amp and xover through to drivers.
Everything I trial through some time and each change is allowed time to settle it all in which is giving me time to appreciate what that is doing in part and in whole. So the cable change will take me a month or two to get a fuller gauge on at least. I’ll get the Quintets fully run in (the 15 inch woofers do appreciably free up over some months) and also get the other horn drivers in and established before I make any other changes to the gear which will likely then be some upgrades to output and driver tubes in the SET amps.
The plan is largely open ended and where I’ll end up is moveable. I do use music appreciation as my guide. I can atomise and analyse when I have to but mostly I’m essentially holistic in whether I’m at rightness or moving towards it or away from it. If I break this and find I’m becoming musically disengaged with either speaker project I can always just head back to where I was previously. So analysis happens periodically when needed. The changes are always intended to build towards less and less awareness about what is going on with the gear and just more towards what is going on with the music.
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The bigger horns keep easing back... they do flow plus, I’m now a complete 16 ohm big woofer for jazz and classical convert. Everyone sounds so very cool. Interesting to read Ralph (atmasphere) talk about the great 16 ohm virtues... especially on low level info, I am so now getting that.
Microdynamics and nuance along with pure musical flow is exactly where I am finding it to be. The 8 mid woofers are just fairly cruising and keeping rhythm and the horn sails in over the top. The flow is entrancing.
Then having the other Trio horns set to an 8 ohm presentation gives that slight gear shift up on attack and a bit more bite and fierceness. The trio is the perfect PA system for the music lover. Dance, rock and trance bass driving it all as it should be.
Think I’ve lucked onto an aspect of system shaping that I just hadn’t grasped before. The essential difference between an 8 ohm v 16 ohm presentation, with 16 ohm natural flow and decay and using plasticity to stretch the musical thread or then instead using an 8 ohm energy to bring a shade more attack to help enliven and delineate the edges.
Small shifts in energy but shaping the experience that relates to a shift also in musical styles and even then reflective of the energy of relative periods but also the essential nature of the culture and the times in life and in the spirit of our being.
Microdynamics and nuance along with pure musical flow is exactly where I am finding it to be. The 8 mid woofers are just fairly cruising and keeping rhythm and the horn sails in over the top. The flow is entrancing.
Then having the other Trio horns set to an 8 ohm presentation gives that slight gear shift up on attack and a bit more bite and fierceness. The trio is the perfect PA system for the music lover. Dance, rock and trance bass driving it all as it should be.
Think I’ve lucked onto an aspect of system shaping that I just hadn’t grasped before. The essential difference between an 8 ohm v 16 ohm presentation, with 16 ohm natural flow and decay and using plasticity to stretch the musical thread or then instead using an 8 ohm energy to bring a shade more attack to help enliven and delineate the edges.
Small shifts in energy but shaping the experience that relates to a shift also in musical styles and even then reflective of the energy of relative periods but also the essential nature of the culture and the times in life and in the spirit of our being.
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I have always found horns to be in many cases the ideal way to enjoy music. However, I have also found that many systems with horns just do not sound right. They can have a harshness and shouty nature that only years in this hobby and many trial and error sessions with them can alleviate. You really need to have the "RIGHT SYSTEM and ROOM" IME to find the synergy in components and horn speakers. Once you find it, it can definitely be Audio Nirvana sounding as real as live music as one could ever want.
I’ve come to confirm much the same. They are for me the best avenue to the music. I’ve been fortunate to have come across a range of horns that don’t do the shouty thing and that have been very room friendly if perhaps not so much demure in scale. Would be fabulous if it wasn’t a thing but for me the better ones are the biggish beasts.
But definitely very much agree about having the system and especially amp to match. This is I spose the same for most speakers but good horns don’t gloss over anything. With the Magnepan 20.7s a mate of mine calls them scalpels because they reveal most everything and I find that my current horns are just as honest and in ways more open again.
I’m genuinely slow on the uptake and it takes me ages to get some deeper grasp of all that’s going on but these last few years focussed with horns and having heard quite a range of different ones with some length of exposure I’m feeling that there is more diversity of characteristic latitude in this type of speaker than others and that even small shifts between them create for very different experiences. They are very much fascinating beasts for sure. They are a key to unlocking to a flow of musical connection if not perhaps the only key.
But definitely very much agree about having the system and especially amp to match. This is I spose the same for most speakers but good horns don’t gloss over anything. With the Magnepan 20.7s a mate of mine calls them scalpels because they reveal most everything and I find that my current horns are just as honest and in ways more open again.
I’m genuinely slow on the uptake and it takes me ages to get some deeper grasp of all that’s going on but these last few years focussed with horns and having heard quite a range of different ones with some length of exposure I’m feeling that there is more diversity of characteristic latitude in this type of speaker than others and that even small shifts between them create for very different experiences. They are very much fascinating beasts for sure. They are a key to unlocking to a flow of musical connection if not perhaps the only key.
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I would love to hear those Maggies 20.7 driven by Lamm hybrids.
I was often times underwhelmed when I heard Maggies but mostly blamed the amps for that. I wonder if the Lamm hybrids would synergize with the Maggies...
Genuinely great thought Christoph and not one I’d considered.
At this point I’m happily so far up SET creek without a paddle that I might indeed never find my way back to the good ship SS.
I’ve been dominantly a hornoholic for a few years solid now and I feel that is as much about the SET as it is about the horns.
At this point I’m happily so far up SET creek without a paddle that I might indeed never find my way back to the good ship SS.
I’ve been dominantly a hornoholic for a few years solid now and I feel that is as much about the SET as it is about the horns.
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Same here
BUT: you can always have several systems to enjoy
Tbh, on the Apogee Studio Grands I prefer even the (30 SET watts) KR Audio VA 350 over the Lamm M1.1
On the Acoustats, the Lamms really shine but even though, I wouldn't keep the Lamms for the Acoustats alone. The Sphinx Project 14 hybrids also work wonderfully on the Acoustats.
I think I only keep the Lamms because deep inside me I haven't completely ruled out ever owning a pair of Apogee FullRange some day
You owe it to the Maggies (and yourself) to try the Lamms if the opportunity ever presents itselfThough you have got me thinking now
The seed has been sownYou owe it to the Maggies (and yourself) to try the Lamms if the opportunity ever presents itself
It’s like one of those things that you can’t unsee or unhear lol
I mean the Maggies are standing around anywaysThe seed has been sown
Hahaha... cracks me upI mean the Maggies are standing around anyways
I've never known any man be happy with just one (*insert item of choice HERE) when he can dally with more.
I dally daily, but sometimes the thought is even more dangerously attractive than the reality. I’ve got 12 months of journeying around the horn planned and budgeted... we are in many ways simply lost souls waiting to shipwreck ourselves... again. But the compass points clearly to the radians and the winds and SEOS waveguides me towards the new beryllium and we SET sails in the morrow
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You think you have it tough, Graham? Pity the poor fellows deliberating multiple tts/arms/carts.
And in these days of piss poor returns on selling gear, I could almost see myself running horns with my Zus still in tow.
If I'm gonna spend upwards of £50k on favoured horns with the right SETs, relying on saving no more than 10-15% by selling current gear isn't a deciding factor. I might as well run both. In any hypothetical situation, you understand.
And in these days of piss poor returns on selling gear, I could almost see myself running horns with my Zus still in tow.
If I'm gonna spend upwards of £50k on favoured horns with the right SETs, relying on saving no more than 10-15% by selling current gear isn't a deciding factor. I might as well run both. In any hypothetical situation, you understand.
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