the sound of tao - some video shares

[the sound of Tao]

The big horn project is unfolding better than even I had hoped. Things are just settling in still but they do real effortless room filling scale, they build a music window that is a theatre, but they also do nuance, texture, timbre, microdynamics and macrodynamics... their believability is really something. They convey music and also make fantastic sound but more they make convincing instruments with rightness, they pretty much are up to doing it all... and they are only still settling in for four of the eight woofers and xover.

The scale and ease they have is transforming the way I listen to music and am less concerned with where they are heading now and just enjoying the new paradigm as it unfolds.

Dave Douglas Quintet... on Quintets and Whither must I wander...

and captured earlier on the Trios

 

[the sound of Tao]

The ultimate deciding reason for buying my first Magnepans (3.7s) was how amazingly they portrayed piano... I was just sold by that realism. I’d never heard any speaker approach recreating piano that way.

Just marginally the 3.7s left hand of the keyboard didn’t have quite the weight needed and my uncle was a jazz pianist so I was brought up surrounded with that and have a deep love for piano music... but then the 20.7s did concert grand in a way I thought would not likely be equalled... with all the right tone and balance. But the new big horn’s bass energy and structure and athleticism has kicked in now plus add dynamic force... Steinway or Bosendorfer concert grands from piano strike and all textures and the tone to the energising of the room with a full scale realistic piano launch and attack. Complete believability with piano... I am beyond happy with this.

I was expecting some trade offs going to the bigger platform horn with more drivers and mid tweeter horns sitting up high. I expected more bass and energy and heft but figured I might lose a bit of coherency but not at all. The tweeter is high but canted over towards the listener so works absolutely fine. The extra woofers are actually doing less work and so less distortion and are even more seamless. I was thinking the big horn would be for big scale music and big electronic and rock and the smaller trio horn more for jazz and chamber music. But the big Quintet15 horn outpaces the Trio (as I had it) in everything.

Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances Op 45 (for 2 pianos) on the Quintets

and on the Trios

 

[the sound of Tao]

So I've got two horn projects on the go and now instead of my original thoughts of using the Trios as the benchmark to work on the Quintets I'm reversing it and going to use the larger Quintet15 (as they already are) as benchmark to further mod the Trios with an improved horn and bespoke larger bamboo baffles just to see where extra baffle area and added mass plus a beryllium compression driver can take this concept and just how far they can go towards the larger Quintet. If I get it further improved I’ll then trial those mods across on their bigger brother horn as well. Easy steps... all just one at a time.

I’m a bit surprised tbh... but I think it’s also more than just the extra woofers and extra hz. The speakers being almost as tall as the ceiling make for an infinite baffle so the whole side of the room is fully engaged and energised.

The extra bass fundamentals extend the soundstage back and make a deeper more scenic view, the 8 woofers are just loping along and only just moving and so distorting less. The added physical mass of the speakers also then drops the resonant frequency. All as a first order two way with just one cap and an inductor... coherency is seamless. Apparent speed and resolution are both increased. There is an ease and micro dynamic flow to the presentation that is temporally elastic. Things go quicksilver then stretch, just like great music with artistry can.


Prokofiev Cello Sonata in G minor Bruno Phillipe and Christoph Eschenbach

and again on Trio15 Horn

 

[ddk]

The ultimate deciding reason for buying my first Magnepans (3.7s) was how amazingly they portrayed piano... I was just sold by that realism. I’d never heard any speaker approach recreating piano that way.

Just marginally the 3.7s left hand of the keyboard didn’t have quite the weight needed and my uncle was a jazz pianist so I was brought up surrounded with that and have a deep love for piano music... but then the 20.7s did concert grand in a way I thought would not likely be equalled... with all the right tone and balance. But the new big horn’s bass energy and structure and athleticism has kicked in now plus add dynamic force... Steinway or Bosendorfer concert grands from piano strike and all textures and the tone to the energising of the room with a full scale realistic piano launch and attack. Complete believability with piano... I am beyond happy with this.

I was expecting some trade offs going to the bigger platform horn with more drivers and mid tweeter horns sitting up high. I expected more bass and energy and heft but figured I might lose a bit of coherency but not at all. The tweeter is high but canted over towards the listener so works absolutely fine. The extra woofers are actually doing less work and so less distortion and are even more seamless. I was thinking the big horn would be for big scale music and big electronic and rock and the smaller trio horn more for jazz and chamber music. But the big Quintet15 horn outpaces the Trio (as I had it) in everything.

Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances Op 45 (for 2 pianos) on the Quintets

and on the Trios

So I've got two horn projects on the go and now instead of my original thoughts of using the Trios as the benchmark to work on the Quintets I'm reversing it and going to use the larger Quintet15 (as they already are) as benchmark to further mod the Trios with an improved horn and bespoke larger bamboo baffles just to see where extra baffle area and added mass plus a beryllium compression driver can take this concept and just how far they can go towards the larger Quintet. If I get it further improved I’ll then trial those mods across on their bigger brother horn as well. Easy steps... all just one at a time.

I’m a bit surprised tbh... but I think it’s also more than just the extra woofers and extra hz. The speakers being almost as tall as the ceiling make for an infinite baffle so the whole side of the room is fully engaged and energised.

The extra bass fundamentals extend the soundstage back and make a deeper more scenic view, the 8 woofers are just loping along and only just moving and so distorting less. The added physical mass of the speakers also then drops the resonant frequency. All as a first order two way with just one cap and an inductor... coherency is seamless. Apparent speed and resolution are both increased. There is an ease and micro dynamic flow to the presentation that is temporally elastic. Things go quicksilver then stretch, just like great music with artistry can.


Prokofiev Cello Sonata in G minor Bruno Phillipe and Christoph Eschenbach

and again on Trio15 Horn

Aside from the recording volume is the only change in the 2 videos the speakers?

david

 

[the sound of Tao]

Aside from the recording volume is the only change in the 2 videos the speakers?

david

Yes David, exact same iPhone (just an iPhone 6s) and same seating position and all the gear, source, amp pre and the tubes in these, the ics and speaker cables are all unchanged. I keep it simple as it’s just a way of having some reference and recall points in terms of shift. It does for me reflect much of the change. The characteristic change that you can hear in the quintet and trio recordings are reflective of the nature of the change in the sound between the two speakers but the change itself in terms of the experience is for me even greater.

I genuinely am surprised that greater energising of the room by the bigger speakers is as fundamental and palpable in the room. When I went from Magnepan 3.7 to 20.7 it was like that but not to this degree.

 

[ddk]

Yes David, exact same iPhone and same seating position and all the gear, source, amp pre and the tubes in these, the ics and speaker cables are all unchanged.

Wow, pretty amazing difference! In both posts the 2nd video with Trios kills the first one which is boring, bland and homogenized with glassy top end. The Trio videos sound wonderful!

david

 

[bonzo75]

The trios are sounding great. So much more energy, dynamic range, life, nice tones, swing. Nice bass integration. These videos are much superior to the videos you had put up some months ago

 

[the sound of Tao]

The new speakers are just settling in. The woofers really shift their characteristics over quite a few hundred hours. The parts in the crossover also make a difference and only the Mundorf cap has time up on it. But the music has always come through these so for me neither setup has been boring. I listen to everyone’s videos and wonder how it all translates to experience. Videos give clues but never the complete picture.

But these are only just early works in progress and not the finals and hope as a designer (different context but same process) with 40 years of open sharing of my work with clients and peers and students to figure people will have some understanding of that these are purely developmental stages. Shifting to beryllium radian compression drivers and a horn (as yet undetermined) will be the next exploration. The mix of changes will take quite a deal more time to arrive at something that may be more like a resting place lol.

I’m confident where I’m heading is in a good direction though and when I’m finished may share again using these as current references. They are just videos though and have limits in what elements they best expose.

I’ve worked in film and landscape design, built form and some architecture and now am underway with these speakers. To be honest I’m just enjoying and following the process.

 

[bonzo75]

What amp are you using? Is the quintet harder to drive? Also, the woofers you said you are using with the trios, are they active or fed by the same amp?

 

[the sound of Tao]

All fed with the same amp Ked. The line magnetic LM805ia with a Microzotl MZ3 up front. I’ve got two SETs and the pre has two line outputs so can trial active down the track. But I’m driving the setup as high as I would and on the new setup the meters are running in the very early parts of their travel only.

I am playing music generally at quite a degree lower volume settings with the new speakers and really happy playing at quite low settings. Guessing it’s because the room is generally more energised. A mate is going to bring his mic and I’ll get some proper data when I get the Radian compression drivers in at any rate. At the moment I’m just playing in the new woofers. The additional woofers are in parallel and not wired in series so easier to drive that way.

I had planned to begin some separate folded OB subs project as well but the way the new additional woofers are delivering bass I am less likely to go that way... but who knows what potentials also the radian beryllium drivers may open up and how that may take the process.

Though as the guys who have been working on their speaker projects may attest getting things into ballpark as opposed to finishing the game are two very different things. I’m not expecting to hit it out of the park first time at the plate... at this early point I’m mainly just hoping not to get hit by the balls lol.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Wow, pretty amazing difference! In both posts the 2nd video with Trios kills the first one which is boring, bland and homogenized with glassy top end. The Trio videos sound wonderful!

david

I also get where you are coming from as well David and in some ways the earlier trios represent a summative sign off on all the small points of culminating and being wonderfully happy with those. I don’t have a video record of all the times the mix wasn’t quite right with them and all the small changes in getting them to the point of being completely at ease with their performance.

Now bringing in extra woofers and going back to scratch with refining a crossover, even just dialling the new speakers in which for dipoles is really completely make or break stuff... so many nights spent just getting the speakers to pop into that right pocket... all those points of refinement that took me over a year with first OB horns is ahead of me again. But the essential quality of getting bass fundamentals in place so that they can now be more realistic in scale is worth it all.

I sit here knowing there is still so much to do to bring to complete rightness with this new iteration but that I also can play music every night and love the music with either versions of theses speakers. Comparative stuff does tend to overshadow the big picture of am I essentially happy.

I’m lucky to have two horn systems now that I believe will both be great listening spaces for music. Might easily take me a year (or two ) to get through to their best though. But I did launch into this new phase to give me something to design and work to refine on. The listening to music side I do now have covered. This is more
the joy for me of working on gear stuff.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Wow, pretty amazing difference! In both posts the 2nd video with Trios kills the first one which is boring, bland and homogenized with glassy top end. The Trio videos sound wonderful!

david

Apologies David, had thought I’d posted a like for your comment as I very much appreciate the input. I find it great how you hear things. I’m still hearing some early promising elements here with the new project so comfortable it is going to pay off in a new scale of presentation but clearly they still haven’t realised that energetic ease and togetherness as they are still just settling in. It will be my work to get the rightness in that I really enjoy with the trios as well.

I possibly went a bit early on release of some videos not because I thought they were finalised but simply I enjoy the sharing of process and happy for it to unfold as it goes. Hopefully it will get to that good place of essential rightness again where everything comes together.

I caught up with a mate to play some pinball, have a coffee and make up some additional hookup cable for the wide range horn. So now the drivers have all got the spec of hookup cable as intended and things are already even now more of a piece and the treble is simply more right. A two way OB horn is as I’m figuring you know quite a revealing beastie so am expecting the ride to continue to both surprise and challenge. As long as the music and sanity prevails

 

[ddk]

Apologies David, had thought I’d posted a like for your comment as I very much appreciate the input. I find it great how you hear things. I’m still hearing some early promising elements here with the new project so comfortable it is going to pay off in a new scale of presentation but clearly they still haven’t realised that energetic ease and togetherness as they are still just settling in. It will be my work to get the rightness in that I really enjoy with the trios as well.

I possibly went a bit early on release of some videos not because I thought they were finalised but simply I enjoy the sharing of process and happy for it to unfold as it goes. Hopefully it will get to that good place of essential rightness again where everything comes together.

I caught up with a mate to play some pinball, have a coffee and make up some additional hookup cable for the wide range horn. So now the drivers have all got the spec of hookup cable as intended and things are already even now more of a piece and the treble is simply more right. A two way OB horn is as I’m figuring you know quite a revealing beastie so am expecting the ride to continue to both surprise and challenge. As long as the music and sanity prevails

No need for any apology Graham, I can live without a"like" click ! Horns are challenging to get right, out of curiosity what about the PAPs made you want to modify them to this extent?

Hope that pinball was the real deal, analog and mechanical!

david

 

[the sound of Tao]

I really liked the Pap speakers and the essential concept behind them from the start. Two way OB horn was a fascinating concept to me. These are designed as modular in concept and also designed to a price point but then allow exploration of different drivers, wiring and xover components as well. So for me the chance to explore all this and learn about horns was perfect.

I spent maybe about a year getting to know the original Pap trio speaker and getting it closer to what I felt was a version of it’s best for me. I got what I feel is a great balance of attributes. It’s energy and nature work on a wide range of music. But I felt it was a best fit for music at medium large through to more intimate scales. On the largest scale works and in larger space it was still good but just not as convincing as it was in playing more moderate scaled music where it has great believability.

So now going to a larger design is for me essentially about getting a speaker designed to energise larger rooms and also engage better with the larger scales of music. More effortless when the going gets big.

Also for me getting to the rightness of a thing is the challenge and horns are such fantastically subtle and nuanced instruments. As both these are still two way OB both keep it simple and in terms of coherence both are really great which is a quality I find immediately obvious when it’s missing.

The trio was designed to be modular and within a brief that invited people to explore modifying some of it’s parts. So easy to change an element and hear the nature of the change and understand the outcome and what it means to the music. It has taught me a good deal about the impacts in changing parts and changing or shaping sound... and then how that sound then shapes musical experience.

Most designers I know engage in the design process because of wanting to explore an understanding of something including getting some sense of the purpose and in the meaning and experience of things. It is very much the same for me. I essentially like to explore the nature of change itself. Also the way these experiences are then phenomenal. The nature of change in the parts and the whole and then how that characteristic nature then shapes experience. So the Pap speakers are a great platform for that.

Also I grew up in a world of analogue both in records and reel to reel and also analogue bikes and analogue pinball, analogue pool and snooker and luckily have a good mate close by who has a couple of turntables, big horns and a couple of pinball machines. For me all wonderfully mechanical and I will always be very much drawn to all of that

 

[tima]

Having modded and lived with (and come to love) the Pureaudioproject Trio15 Horn1 I have now bought into the bigger Quintet15 with it's 8 x 15 inch woofers to use as a base to explore and develop and potentially roll in some other horn combinations.

I'm just getting caught up with my reading here and find the discussion at msg #60 forward to be very interesting. Thanks for that and the videos, Graham. I also appreciate your contrast and commentary on the Magnepans - those were my first high-end speaker some years back and it was the way they portrayed a piano and Ella Fitzgerald that opened my ears. Interesting enough here to lead me to the PureAudioProject Web site to learn more about their speakers. I see they have a home audition program which is pretty amazing by itself. I gather you have made purchases.

Keep it coming.

edit: PS - try the Letter Duet from Le Nozzi with Kiri Te Kanawa and Lucia Popp

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Tim,
I’m really loving the experience of these speakers. They have a lot of opportunity to explore and play... and it is the 2 way open baffle and dipole nature that give them (for me) an immediacy and coherence that reminds me of my experience of panel speakers. But with the dynamics of horn.

Their upgradability takes them considerably forward in my experience. The exploration in simple cap and resistor mods pays back immediately. With the trios the thing seems to me to build on the basic great musical qualities and then to tease out the bass which is something that really brings them to fruition. With the quintets this simply is not a concern. They are capable of great scale. They are just settling in and shining through with more capability every session.

I am sold on them. My next explore will be to try out a pair of beryllium Radian CDs.

I do find these speakers deeply engaging and the flow and ease with musical aliveness is compelling. Their affordability also makes that exploration a good deal easier. Happy to share what has worked better in my experience either way.

 

[tima]

My next explore will be to try a pair of beryllium Radian CDs.

Is that as a driver in one of your PAP speakers? Or...

 

[the sound of Tao]

Or... try it in either or both.

Part of my plan is to try in a different horn CD combination to get a better idea of comparative performance... that said I could easily live with the stock compression driver in the Pap biradial horn which does so many things right.

 

[christoph]

I am sold on them. My next explore will be to try out a pair of beryllium Radian CDs.

I would LOVE to see a project (pun intended) with the big Heil AMT midrange/tweeter driver, also used in the Heil Kithara.

Oskar Heil

This driver IMHO literally begs to be used in a full range dipole speaker.

Around 95 dB and a true dipole.
I'm very confident that a PAP Quintet with the big Heil driver would make for an absolutely brilliant speaker

 

[the sound of Tao]

That’s very cool Christoph, I hadn’t seen the Kithara heil before.