American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

[bonzo75]

The den on was introduced as one example of a good sounding turntable for not much money. I consider it an excellent value. I have no idea what else you are talking about. You can’t seem to support your jewelry or OCD comment.

Yes you set your strawman and did a compare to justify your purchase. Congrats on your 100k deal.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The motor has to do very little to keep the platter rotating and motor noise traveling to the platter over the thread is reduced by the tension and type of thread.

Peter,

Can you to tell us what is the measured percental variation of speed per second of you turntable when you remove the belt?

Then we can easily calculate the energy that is transferred to the platter by the motor.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I agree with you about the stability of the sound. I hear it as a calmness. That’s an interesting looking project you’ve got going. Have you experimented with non- stretch belts or threads? Have you experimented with tension and different torque from the motor?

For me it is important to have a good grip on the flywheel + turntable so that it reaches the target speed in one minute. This really has to work reliably because the flywheel is heavier than the platter of the rx 5000, for example. The non-stretchable fabric tape is rubberized with dip paint for tool handles. Once the speed is reached, it has so much power that it is difficult to stop the platter with one hand. Best i have in the moment
Cleaning the LP with a brush during playback does not result in any variation in the speed.

 

[PeterA]

For me it is important to have a good grip on the flywheel + turntable so that it reaches the target speed in one minute. This really has to work reliably because the flywheel is heavier than the platter of the rx 5000, for example. The non-stretchable fabric tape is rubberized with dip paint for tool handles. Once the speed is reached, it has so much power that it is difficult to stop the platter with one hand. Best i have in the moment
Cleaning the LP with a brush during playback does not result in any variation in the speed.

That sounds like good grip and good torque.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Can you to tell us what is the measured percental variation of speed per second of you turntable when you remove the belt?

Then we can easily calculate the energy that is transferred to the platter by the motor.

If the same motor maintains the same platter speed using a rubber belt, a tight thread, and a loose thread, would the energy transfer be the same with all three interfaces?

I will see what I can do about measuring how the speed changes per second when the thread is removed from 33.333RPM. It is not constant, and I do not really know how I would measure it. I do get a readout on the tachometer at each rotation of the platter, but each rotation is slower than the previous one. How do you suggest I measure what you are looking for, and what will the energy amount being transferred tell you?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Do not tell our purists about the Studer, the Studer/Revox controllers use a PLL based feedback system. Serious audiophiles are are supposed to hear the continuous error and correction system catching the speed! As far as I remember the original Apolyt turntable (around 1990) used a Revox motor and control board sourced from a B77.

Correct answer

 

[microstrip]

If the same motor maintains the same platter speed using a rubber belt, a tight thread, and a loose thread, would the energy transfer be the same with all three interfaces?

No, the air bearing platter friction forces would be different for different belt tensions. A perfect air bearing turntable would have balanced symmetrical drive.

I will see what I can do about measuring how the speed changes per second when the thread is removed from 33.333RPM. It is not constant, and I do not really know how I would measure it. I do get a readout on the tachometer at each rotation of the platter, but each rotation is slower than the previous one. How do you suggest I measure what you are looking for, and what will the energy amount being transferred tell you?

Remove the belt when turning at 33.33 and record speed at each rotation. Or make a video of the tachometer for us. It would be great to have also this information with the tonearm playing.

 

[PeterA]

No, the air bearing platter friction forces would be different for different belt tensions. A perfect air bearing turntable would have balanced symmetrical drive.



Remove the belt when turning at 33.33 and record speed at each rotation. Or make a video of the tachometer for us. It would be great to have also this information with the tonearm playing.

Yes, the stylus in the groove introduces more friction. I had to adjust speed while listening on my old SME because stylus drag slowed the platter down too much. On my new table, I can not remove the thread while the motor is driving the platter. But I can hand spin the platter up to 33.333 and and observe it slow down. I can also turn off the motor and watch the readout, but there will be some thread/motor pulley contact so it slows down faster. I'll move this discussion over to my system thread. This thread is about a different table.

 

[Verdier]

For me it's not important how long the turntable spins, it's just a sign that it's well constructed.
Much more important is how consistently the energy from the drive acts on the turntable and helps it to achieve an absolutely stable speed.
There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel. Once you've heard something like that, normal turntables are hard to bear(a little exaggerated).
You have to listen toall your LPs again, because there's a completely different stability to the sounds, whether it's piano or bass, for example.
It will be finished in the summer, when all the rotating parts will be powder-coated the same color, and will look nicer.for me the final solution.View attachment 143186

Cool! Is this your listening room, your turntable?

"There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel."
Maybe. But there are probably other opinions too: https://www.thales.swiss/thales-reference1.html

 

[DasguteOhr]

Cool! Is this your listening room, your turntable?

"There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel."
Maybe. But there are probably other opinions too: https://www.thales.swiss/thales-reference1.html

No, this not my room , I bought it from a friend who gave up analogue playback. At the moment it is in pieces and there are still some work areas. I don't want to take credit for other people's work, he did so many things brilliantly but there are a few things that can still be improved my opion but maybe I'm wrong.
Melt the fabric tape together with heat and then coat it with rubber dip paint. That was the first modification and the running noise was extremely quiet. A flywheel with a 1:1 ratio is dangerous, I still need a stable attachment, it weighs like an aluminum rim with tires. If there is an imbalance and it comes off on its own, no one will be hurt.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Peter,

Can you to tell us what is the measured percental variation of speed per second of you turntable when you remove the belt?

Then we can easily calculate the energy that is transferred to the platter by the motor.

It would maybe be easier to use an energy meter and note how much power the motor/TT draws and multiply with a typical motor efficiency ? With motor running and not etc

 

[Balle Clorin]

There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel.

Depends also on the belt quality I think , I have checked some massive 20+kg platter designs with horrible speed performance, the only explanation I could think of is a mediocre belt . I was astonished how bad it performed despite a massive TT and platter. Mass does not help if the implementation is not good.

 

[mtemur]

If the same motor maintains the same platter speed using a rubber belt, a tight thread, and a loose thread, would the energy transfer be the same with all three interfaces?

I will see what I can do about measuring how the speed changes per second when the thread is removed from 33.333RPM. It is not constant, and I do not really know how I would measure it. I do get a readout on the tachometer at each rotation of the platter, but each rotation is slower than the previous one. How do you suggest I measure what you are looking for, and what will the energy amount being transferred tell you?

Would you please measure your turntable with AM software in terms of speed and wow & flutter and share the results with us? Alternatively, you can install the “Turntable Speed” app on your phone to perform the measurement. While it’s not as reliable as the AM software, it’s free and it will still provide an idea of the turntable’s performance.

I’m making this request because you often post about how long it takes your AS2000 to come to a full stop, emphasizing its speed stability and wow & flutter performance. You frequently highlight its performance by referencing its spin-down time, frictionless bearing but no meaningful results.

Please conduct a proper wow & flutter test that provides a clear, measurable result, rather than posting videos of a laser pointing at a spot on the wall, which does not yield any readable data. A long spin-down time or a laser hitting the same spot on the wall does not necessarily guarantee excellent wow & flutter performance. While you’re at it maybe it’s a good idea to check your Micro Seiki too.

 

[PeterA]

Would you please measure your turntable with AM software in terms of speed and wow & flutter and share the results with us? Alternatively, you can install the “Turntable Speed” app on your phone to perform the measurement. While it’s not as reliable as the AM software, it’s free and it will still provide an idea of the turntable’s performance.

I’m making this request because you often post about how long it takes your AS2000 to come to a full stop, emphasizing its speed stability and wow & flutter performance. You frequently highlight its performance by referencing its spin-down time, frictionless bearing but no meaningful results.

Please conduct a proper wow & flutter test that provides a clear, measurable result, rather than posting videos of a laser pointing at a spot on the wall, which does not yield any readable data. A long spin-down time or a laser hitting the same spot on the wall does not necessarily guarantee excellent wow & flutter performance. While you’re at it maybe it’s a good idea to check your Micro Seiki too.

Mtemur, That is not quite accurate. I simply shared the free spin time to stop as an interesting observation of smooth operation not assuming anything else. I am not an engineer and do not presume anything beyond that. I never made any claims about how or even if this affects speed stability and wow and flutter performance. I presume those results depend on the interaction of the platter/motor/controller/thread as a system. That is you making assumptions about my posts. I do not have those measuring devices to make the measurements you seek, and I do not think I will buy them and spend the time to learn how to use them. I do appreciate that you and others are interested in these results from various turntables.

I sold the Micro Seiki.

I do think it would be interesting to read a thread devoted to turntable performance. You should start one and perhaps those with these devices will share the data you seek about their turntables.

 

[mtemur]

I do not have those measuring devices to make the measurements you seek, and I do not think I will buy them and spend the time to learn how to use them.

You may not want to buy AM, which is understandable, but Turntable Speed is a free app you can download to your phone. It’s not a device, it’s free, and there’s no learning curve—you simply place it on the platter and run it.

You mentioned not wanting to spend money or time learning to use proper wow & flutter measuring tools, yet you invest time and money in a laser device that points at a spot on the wall without providing meaningful, readable output. Moreover, you take the time to record videos of that same laser, upload them to YouTube, and even discuss the spin-down time of the AS2000 platter. All these activities are related to wow & flutter and indicate that you’re interested, yet you choose not to measure it directly. I find this contradiction hard to understand.

 

[Balle Clorin]

While it’s not as reliable as the AM software, it’s free and it will still provide an idea of the turntable’s performance.

AnalogMagik states the w&f readings below 0,5% AES is average and 0.3 is good. This is crazy poor values. In reality below 0,05 on test records is a good value. So using AnalogMagik (or any test record) is not a reliable w&f check, it all depend on the record quality, and how well it is centered or not , if you see values above 0,1 the result is not good , but you do not know if it is the record or TT that is the cause. ( off center record may be easy to detect)
Phone apps may not give accurate absolute speed , but years of measuring TT with records, phones and gyro/motion sensor has shown me that phones are fine and mostly far better than records to see speed variation. Just place the phone correctly on a tape roll placed over the spindle. Just be aware of what the numbers represent, shown deviation numbers is not necessarily the same as DIN/AES W@W or WRM/JIS or 2S or peak… For absolute speed I only trust a strobe disk and quartz strobe light.

Or just buy a ShaknSpin , how people can live with belt drives without Shaknspin I do not understand.Shaknspins need to be verified/ calibrated by Strobe disk too. Mine is at 33.333 when showing 33.42 if not calibrated. My phone has a deviation against strobe too…

 

[PeterA]

You may not want to buy AM, which is understandable, but Turntable Speed is a free app you can download to your phone. It’s not a device, it’s free, and there’s no learning curve—you simply place it on the platter and run it.

You mentioned not wanting to spend money or time learning to use proper wow & flutter measuring tools, yet you invest time and money in a laser device that points at a spot on the wall without providing meaningful, readable output. Moreover, you take the time to record videos of that same laser, upload them to YouTube, and even discuss the spin-down time of the AS2000 platter. All these activities are related to wow & flutter and indicate that you’re interested, yet you choose not to measure it directly. I find this contradiction hard to

Thank you for all the advice

 

[mtemur]

AnalogMagik states the w&f readings below 0,5% AES is average and 0.3 is good. This is crazy poor values. In reality below 0,05 on test records is a good value. So using AnalogMagik (or any test record) is not a reliable w&f check, it all depend on the record quality, and how well it is centered or not , if you see values above 0,1 the result is not good , but you do not know if it is the record or TT that is the cause. ( off center record may be easy to detect)
Phone apps may not give accurate absolute speed , but years of measuring TT with records, phones and gyro/motion sensor has shown me that phones are fine and mostly far better than records to see speed variation. Just place the phone correctly on a tape roll placed over the spindle. Just be aware of what the numbers represent, shown deviation numbers is not necessarily the same as DIN/AES W@W or WRM/JIS or 2S or peak… For absolute speed I only trust a strobe disk and quartz strobe light.

I don't know why you're telling these to me.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Just a general comment that test records have their own problems. You know this I am sure, based on your post you seem very skilled and knowledgeable . I was kind of surprised to see AM quite such high W&F numbers...as average..only extremely poor records or defect turntables can produce W&F EAS/DIN of 0.5%

 

[mtemur]

You know this I am sure, based on your post you seem very skilled and knowledgeable .

Thanks, but I don't claim that I'm knowledgeable, I'm learning.

I was kind of surprised to see AM quite such high W&F numbers...as average..only extremely poor records or defect turntables can produce W&F EAS/DIN of 0.5%

A smartphone app can provide an idea of wow & flutter, even if it’s not entirely accurate. AM remains the best wow & flutter measuring tool available despite its inherent limitations. I believe we covered the reasons for this in the “Calibration Devices” section.