American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

[Balle Clorin]

I would like to ask about the part of your comment that states "The interaction between motor, belt/string and platter determines the speed performance”.

Based upon my experience, I would have written The interaction between motor, belt/string and platter affects but does not exclusively determine a turntable's speed performance.

There are other factors involved in the speed performance of The Absolute Nothing turntable.

Do you agree?

It is easier to measure speed errors than to hear them . Somethings have more impact than others . Most people so not notice errors below 0.2% on speed .?But when you first notice it, it is difficult to ignore. For many technical performance is not the goal as long as it does not interfere with musical enjoyment. silky Nerds like me feel more pride of ownership when also the technical parts are in order and top notch ,even if well below audible limits. I still enjoy my playing on my beutiful belt drive more than my perfect pitch DD, so I am not very consistent myself …

 

[cdk84]

It is easier to measure speed errors than to hear them . Somethings have more impact than others . Most people so not notice errors below 0.2% on speed .?But when you first notice it, it is difficult to ignore. For many technical performance is not the goal as long as it does not interfere with musical enjoyment. silky Nerds like me feel more pride of ownership when also the technical parts are in order and top notch ,even if well below audible limits. I still enjoy my playing on my beutiful belt drive more than my perfect pitch DD, so I am not very consistent myself …

Hello BC,
I like the tenor of your response and agree. Isn’t it about the involvement, the degree to which a performance is re-presented in our listening environment?
Cheers and Happy Holidays,
David

 

[PeterA]

It is easier to measure speed errors than to hear them . Somethings have more impact than others . Most people so not notice errors below 0.2% on speed .?But when you first notice it, it is difficult to ignore. For many technical performance is not the goal as long as it does not interfere with musical enjoyment. silky Nerds like me feel more pride of ownership when also the technical parts are in order and top notch ,even if well below audible limits. I still enjoy my playing on my beutiful belt drive more than my perfect pitch DD, so I am not very consistent myself …

0.02% is a speed variation of 0.067 from 33.33RPM, right? Do you mean 33.33 RMP +/- 0.0335 (33.297 - 33.364) for a variation around 33.33 of 0.067, or do you mean 33.33 vs 33.397 (0.067 too fast) and 33.33 vs 33.263 (0.067 too slow)?

 

[Balle Clorin]

The average absolute error does not matter much. It is the constant variation that is annoying and audible as a wavering unsteady sound. 0.2% is very audible on test tones, but mostly obscured by pop music. I can easily hear 0.05 % wow on a test tone, even 0.02% can be noticed.

One thing to note is that the wow at the inner tracks can reach 0.3% wow just due to an a normal hole size deviation if 0.2mm . … so it is a hopeless battle to fight wow , just get it as good as you can

0.2% wow is a variation between 33,2663 and 33,3997.

 

[Loheswaran]

The average absolute error does not matter much. It is the constant variation that is annoying and audible as a wavering unsteady sound. 0.2% is very audible on test tones, but mostly obscured by pop music. I can easily hear 0.05 % wow on a test tone, even 0.02% can be noticed.

One thing to note is that the wow at the inner tracks can reach 0.3% wow just due to an a normal hole size deviation if 0.2mm . … so it is a hopeless battle to fight wow , just get it as good as you can

0.2% wow is a variation between 33,2663 and 33,3997.

I will repeat a mantra of mine that came following a discussion with my audiologist cousin and also Martin Colloms from Hifi critic - people have different sensitivities- we’re different. In my case I’m apparently very timing sensitive - this manifests itself in my hi Fi choices (dd’s and a high torque belt drive) also sealed speakers (ns1000m’s) and incisive/quick amp Lavardin IT. I found with my string drive deck (Amazon model one) it timed well to a point with inertia - but when playing complex passages the tiny slurring was audible to me.

 

[Balle Clorin]

If you want perfect sound stream it..

 

[hb22]

The average absolute error does not matter much. It is the constant variation that is annoying and audible as a wavering unsteady sound. 0.2% is very audible on test tones, but mostly obscured by pop music. I can easily hear 0.05 % wow on a test tone, even 0.02% can be noticed.

One thing to note is that the wow at the inner tracks can reach 0.3% wow just due to an a normal hole size deviation if 0.2mm . … so it is a hopeless battle to fight wow , just get it as good as you can

0.2% wow is a variation between 33,2663 and 33,3997.

LPs have more deviations than 0.2 mm and play perfectly. If it weren't like that, we wouldn't listen to vinyl. With an uncentered test disc, my turntable has about 0.12% wow, with max. centered even up to 0.03% wow. Flutter cannot be measured. There is no point in dealing with wow. You can hear flutter, but that's it.

 

[Loheswaran]

LPs have more deviations than 0.2 mm and play perfectly. If it weren't like that, we wouldn't listen to vinyl. With an uncentered test disc, my turntable has about 0.12% wow, with max. centered even up to 0.03% wow. Flutter cannot be measured. There is no point in dealing with wow. You can hear flutter, but that's it.

I get ur point - but what you have there is a bump/blip. When you get drag it’s over that section of the complex/busy music and it acts like a slipper clutch. That is then over and above the inherent ‘flaws’ in vinyl that you already rightly point out.

 

[PeterA]

You choose your jewellery, to me a setting up a system for real sound, natural sound, and absolute sound can be done at lower prices as long as it is done right, rest is the person’s OCD.

I fully agree. Excellent sounding systems can be "done" at lower prices. I just listened to my old Denon DP45F and it sounded very good, basically because it did nothing wrong. However, when compared to better, differences can be heard and appreciated by some listeners. Describing it as jewellery or a person's OCD simply demonstrates differences in values. I did not appreciate the value of such differences until I actually lived with various turntables and continued to compare their differences. One can surely be satisfied at different levels of listening experiences.

 

[PeterA]

I've been reading the topic from the beginning and this made me laugh. You were probably joking when you wrote this?

Hello hb22. I am interested in the subject of turntable design. Having just learned that you have been designing turntables for 45 years and sell a turntable you designed, I am curious to learn what specific comments I made in the post above made you laugh. I assure you I was not joking, and I am happy to learn where my comments may be wrong. Thank you.

 

[bonzo75]

I fully agree. Excellent sounding systems can be "done" at lower prices. I just listened to my old Denon DP45F and it sounded very good, basically because it did nothing wrong. However, when compared to better, differences can be heard and appreciated by some listeners. Describing it as jewellery or a person's OCD simply demonstrates differences in values. I did not appreciate the value of such differences until I actually lived with various turntables and continued to compare their differences. One can surely be satisfied at different levels of listening experiences.

I can think of many lower priced tables that will sound better than Denon (I have only compared Holbo to the Denon 100). The fact that you found a 100k table to sound better than Denon proves that it should be more expensive than Denon DP4SF, that is all.

 

[PeterA]

I can think of many lower priced tables that will sound better than Denon (I have only compared Holbo to the Denon 100). The fact that you found a 100k table to sound better than Denon proves that it should be more expensive than Denon DP4SF, that is all.

You are simply confirming what I wrote and avoiding my criticism of your use of OCD and jewelry. That may be true in some cases, but certainly not universal.

 

[hb22]

Hello hb22. I am interested in the subject of turntable design. Having just learned that you have been designing turntables for 45 years and sell a turntable you designed, I am curious to learn what specific comments I made in the post above made you laugh. I assure you I was not joking, and I am happy to learn where my comments may be wrong. Thank you.

I find this incredibly funny.

There is friction caused by the air under pressure on the surface of the base and the bottom of the platter. If there were no friction it would spin continuously indefinitely. But it in fact stops free-spinning after 30 minutes from 33.333 rpm. I made a video of this on my YouTube channel. I presume the new turntable will have a longer free spin to rest time, but I do not know if this has been tested.

 

[bonzo75]

You are simply confirming what I wrote and avoiding my criticism of your use of OCD and jewelry.

At no point do I remember saying all inexpensive tables are good and all expensive tables compared to all inexpensive tables are OCD. Are you trying to develop some strawman compares to prove AS 2000 is worth the money?

 

[DasguteOhr]

I find this incredibly funny.

There is friction caused by the air under pressure on the surface of the base and the bottom of the platter. If there were no friction it would spin continuously indefinitely. But it in fact stops free-spinning after 30 minutes from 33.333 rpm. I made a video of this on my YouTube channel. I presume the new turntable will have a longer free spin to rest time, but I do not know if this has been tested.

For me it's not important how long the turntable spins, it's just a sign that it's well constructed.
Much more important is how consistently the energy from the drive acts on the turntable and helps it to achieve an absolutely stable speed.
There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel. Once you've heard something like that, normal turntables are hard to bear(a little exaggerated).
You have to listen toall your LPs again, because there's a completely different stability to the sounds, whether it's piano or bass, for example.
It will be finished in the summer, when all the rotating parts will be powder-coated the same color, and will look nicer.for me the final solution.

 

[hb22]

For me it's not important how long the turntable spins, it's just a sign that it's well constructed.
Much more important is how consistently the energy from the drive acts on the turntable and helps it to achieve an absolutely stable speed.
There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel. Once you've heard something like that, normal turntables are hard to bear(a little exaggerated).
You have to listen toall your LPs again, because there's a completely different stability to the sounds, whether it's piano or bass, for example.
It will be finished in the summer, when all the rotating parts will be powder-coated the same color, and will look nicer.for me the final solution.View attachment 143186

This sentence is ridiculous and not true!

"There is friction caused by the air under pressure on the surface of the base and the bottom of the platter."

 

[DasguteOhr]

This sentence is ridiculous and not true!

"There is friction caused by the air under pressure on the surface of the base and the bottom of the platter."

I don't think I'm the right person to talk to about air bearings because I don't like them.
They are actually designed for top speeds of up to 350.000rpm* and not for 33.33rpm.
I use other bearing technology. My bearing can also support a platter mass of 300kg with excellent low friction values.

*At the high speed, the air cushion makes sense because it cools the axis of rotation.

 

[Salectric]

For me it's not important how long the turntable spins, it's just a sign that it's well constructed.
Much more important is how consistently the energy from the drive acts on the turntable and helps it to achieve an absolutely stable speed.
There's no better way to do this than with a heavy turntable combined with a heavy flywheel. Once you've heard something like that, normal turntables are hard to bear(a little exaggerated).
You have to listen toall your LPs again, because there's a completely different stability to the sounds, whether it's piano or bass, for example.
It will be finished in the summer, when all the rotating parts will be powder-coated the same color, and will look nicer.for me the final solution.View attachment 143186

That’s very cool! It reminds me of a system I heard 20 years ago where a Garrard 301 had a thread around the platter to drive a second 301 sitting next to it. With a Schroeder Reference arm on the second 301 and a cartridge I no longer recall, that was one very good sounding combination.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I don't think I'm the right person to talk to about air bearings because I don't like them.
They are actually designed for top speeds of up to 350.000rpm* and not for 33.33rpm.
I use other bearing technology. My bearing can also support a platter mass of 300kg with excellent low friction values.

*At the high speed, the air cushion makes sense because it cools the axis of rotation.

so what is that arm bearing, if not an airbearing?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't think I'm the right person to talk to about air bearings because I don't like them.
They are actually designed for top speeds of up to 350.000rpm* and not for 33.33rpm.
I use other bearing technology. My bearing can also support a platter mass of 300kg with excellent low friction values.

*At the high speed, the air cushion makes sense because it cools the axis of rotation.

there is a captured air bearing, and an air float platter/plinth. two different approaches. my CS Port LFT1 uses a low pressure, low flow air float where the air pressure lifts then bleeds past the platter in a controlled way. i believe that the American Sound tt designs use a somewhat similar approach, but don't know the details as it's a secret handshake hush-hush kinda thing.

air bearing linear tracking tonearms also do the air float thing with air bleeding past the machined surfaces.

my Rockport Sirius III had a captured air bearing for the platter. sounded quite marvelous.