The Truth about Whats Best Forum

[bonzo75]

Which point is that? Sometimes you are cryptic.

That the final price stickers of the two cannot be compared on a like for like basis. So even for those who think price correlates to quality, a 4k phono from a manufacturer that sells direct should not be perceived less than a 40k phono of a well distributed marketed company that then sells via retail where dealer sells at discount to the retail price.

 

[cjfrbw]

It's a creative hobby. There is a need to create at all levels of pomp, grandiosity, extremism and bombast. I can't say I don't enjoy the insanity and the extremism of it. Pepulz got dough, they wants to spend it on something shiny, impressive, and huge. Most experienced audiophiles know that there is not necessarily a correlation, so why not let the oligarchs have their fun. It's fun to watch.

 

[bonzo75]

It's a creative hobby. There is a need to create at all levels of pomp, grandiosity, extremism and bombast. I can't say I don't enjoy the insanity and the extremism of it. Pepulz got dough, they wants to spend it on something shiny, impressive, and huge. Most experienced audiophiles know that there is not necessarily a correlation, so why not let the oligarchs have their fun. It's fun to watch.

That I agree with. It is only when they claim it is sonically superior because they paid more and without evidence of investigating alternatives, that is the problem.

 

[tima]

So even for those who think price correlates to quality, a 4k phono from a manufacturer that sells direct should not be perceived less than a 40k phono of a well distributed marketed company that then sells via retail where dealer sells at discount to the retail price.

You can 'should be' as you like, but that is not realistic. Manufacturers selling direct are likely doing so for a reason - their products are perceived as commodities, they cannot find a distributor, they're in it for the short term going for volume, they expect product support will be minimal. I suspect most direct sales are for stuff that requires minimal support like cables and tweaks, not Gryphons or CH or Magicos.

Give me an example of a 4k direct sales phono stage that 'should be' perceived as equal to or better than a 40k phono stage from a dealer, given a buyer who can afford both. Maybe its a particular Euro thing, I can't speak to that.

I believe people find value in having a dealer for many reasons. Who comes to setup mail order turntable or speakers for 4k?

 

[Al M.]

You can 'should be' as you like, but that is not realistic. Manufacturers selling direct are likely doing so for a reason - their products are perceived as commodities, they cannot find a distributor, they're in it for the short term going for volume, they expect product support will be minimal. I suspect most direct sales are for stuff that requires minimal support like cables and tweaks, not Gryphons or CH or Magicos.

Give me an example of a 4k direct sales phono stage that 'should be' perceived as equal to or better than a 40k phono stage from a dealer, given a buyer who can afford both. Maybe its a particular Euro thing, I can't speak to that.

I believe people find value in having a dealer for many reasons. Who comes to setup mail order turntable or speakers for 4k?

Which dealer comes to set up any turntable or speakers properly? I think you are far too generous in characterizing the actual level of service provided by dealers.

Which dealer makes even just a tenth of the effort of people like Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle, who make system set-up a living and who spend one or two full days at a client?

It's not just the effort, it also seems that knowledge is often lacking among dealers.

 

[DiWil]

I read quite a lot of that... and still am really connected to my ancient separates of 'yester' year.. my love of music for moi, has overpowered any sense I did have, did I ever, debatable,...when perfect sound systems are just more talked of than listening....
My Husband is fairly deaf, really that has it's advantages, he is stuck well and truly in the 60's Cliff Richard is ok in moderation but I have moved with the times and go from cool ballads to fairly heavy Rock 'N Roll.
Trust me, the Beatles at Finsbury Park were lapping up the screaming girls in the 60's. Doing a re run one day of some old tapes, they sure sang rough b ack then...Still appreciate them though....

 

[bonzo75]

You can 'should be' as you like, but that is not realistic. Manufacturers selling direct are likely doing so for a reason - their products are perceived as commodities, they cannot find a distributor, they're in it for the short term going for volume, they expect product support will be minimal. I suspect most direct sales are for stuff that requires minimal support like cables and tweaks, not Gryphons or CH or Magicos.

Give me an example of a 4k direct sales phono stage that 'should be' perceived as equal to or better than a 40k phono stage from a dealer, given a buyer who can afford both. Maybe its a particular Euro thing, I can't speak to that.

I believe people find value in having a dealer for many reasons. Who comes to setup mail order turntable or speakers for 4k?

I didn't say turntable. I said phono. Or preamp, for example. It is not necessary these get "set up" even at higher prices.

Manufacturers are sometimes doing that because hifi as a business is not easily sustainable for profits today. They do it made to order. For artisan products, it is a great model. To build a business that has good marketing and distribution requires organisation building acumen, and has nothing to do with product quality.

One of the best managed companies in the past 100 years sells sugared water, that will sell more even if Gods chose to sell their nectar. That has to do with company management and not core product.

In Euro, direct sales are common. Thomas Mayer, for example, is highly regarded and his preamp is the best I know of (in valves), it has direct sales in many countries. It is not 4k but the silver one is 18k euro. Imo, well worth the value compared to AR Ref 10, for example, which is crazy money through the retail. There are just too many countries to have distributors and dealers everywhere. US, possible because of the size, seems to have dealers and distributors for everything.

Silvercore 833c amps, while not the best, were excellent value for money and were sold direct and popular in the EU. He can do custom amps much superior.

Misho's 4k phono direct is brilliant. Highly nuanced, full of life, and transparent.

In terms of service, there are many well distributed products at high retail facing service issues. Many threads on various forums complaining on various brands. That said, if you prefer a product as local service in your district is good, that is a fair reason to buy, and should be part of the rationale, separate from sonic attributes.

 

[Lagonda]

You can 'should be' as you like, but that is not realistic. Manufacturers selling direct are likely doing so for a reason - their products are perceived as commodities, they cannot find a distributor, they're in it for the short term going for volume, they expect product support will be minimal. I suspect most direct sales are for stuff that requires minimal support like cables and tweaks, not Gryphons or CH or Magicos.

Give me an example of a 4k direct sales phono stage that 'should be' perceived as equal to or better than a 40k phono stage from a dealer, given a buyer who can afford both. Maybe its a particular Euro thing, I can't speak to that.

I believe people find value in having a dealer for many reasons. Who comes to setup mail order turntable or speakers for 4k?

Companies like Schitt and PS Audio have embraced the direct sales model with success, i am sure their product support surpasses that of Krell and Aesthetix !

 

[bonzo75]

Separate to the above, it is worth distinguishing types of "set-up"

- Sometimes, a product requires product specific knowledge (TT/arm/carts installs, for example). This is where dealer knowledge to dial in is handy.
- Room measurements and acoustic treatment set up requires the person to have done it before a few times before.
- Some products require matching knowledge - this does not require in room set up, but requires one to say what amp or preamp your speaker/amp will better match. the choice here is to trust the dealer, a forum, or to investigate with your own ears. The last is the most rare. Once you identify the right match, you can just plug it in, like connecting an amp to a speaker or a pre to a power. Often, a lot of sales happen here because audiophiles are willing to trust the package from the dealer, or they keep buying randomly from the used market, blindly, till they get a match. In this case the dealer will often be a good enough though not necessary optimal.
- In order to match products properly, a dealer with a big portfolio is handy, e.g. you can go to Rhapsody's and try out various amps for Magico, push pull, SS class A, AB, etc. So if you identify the product you want to match with and a dealer with a big portfolio on that front is helpful.
- Speaker position requires zero dealer knowledge. The audiophile is either lazy or not lazy. He is willing to just let the speakers plop down, or he will spend time moving the speakers around, toe in and toe out. Now, if he cannot hear at what position in his room the speaker sounds best, and requires a dealer to tell him which is the ideal position, this is not set up. That same audiophile would have been clueless either way, he is just accepting the dealer suggestion.
- Same with chair position as above. If you can't judge your chair spot yourself, you might as well sit anywhere.
- For many audiophiles, knowing what to listen for is a learning process - they often learn this from the dealer - yes this is technically set up, but this results due to limited knowledge of the audiophile and his inability to listen to the right points and to make a judgement on the resultant sound to set up his system. Often, it leads to bad practices of using foo music on foo CDs and looking for weird attributes.
- A large part of set up comes from the fact that the audiophile does not know what is the optimal sound his gear can get. Most people have never heard optimally the gear they bought and installed themselves and did not hear set up in a better place. This is why they rely on dealers to make that best judgement
- Mike's room sounds great because after his room was designed 20 years ago, he spent hours daily tuning in his speaker position, his acoustics, himself. I have met a lot of people, Mike is by far the hardest working audiophile I know. And the General when it comes to LP, LP cleaning, music, performances and pieces etc. It is just not they bought something and it worked, they worked long hours and years at what they did. Similarly, check the Avalon system on my ZD page. A lot of time has been spent positioning those speakers and seat, not because of dealers. Jazzhead's room is small but his positioning is excellent. Again, no dealer.
- The truth is audiophiles just don't have time for this learning curve. They will just pay up, get someone to do the install or hire a consultant to do the set up.

 

[PeterA]

Which dealer comes to set up any turntable or speakers properly? I think you are far too generous in characterizing the actual level of service provided by dealers.

Which dealer makes even just a tenth of the effort of people like Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle, who make system set-up a living and who spend one or two full days at a client?

It's not just the effort, it also seems that knowledge is often lacking among dealers.

I have heard that some dealers actually charge extra for the service of setting up the speakers you just bought from them.

 

[christoph]

I have heard that some dealers actually charge extra for the service of setting up the speakers you just bought from them.

Where the speakers bought at list price?

 

[PeterA]

Where the speakers bought at list price?

I assume so because this dealership never gives a discount. It may only be for their less expensive models, but I really don't know. I just heard it is their new policy. Perhaps they don't have the staff.

I spoke to Jim Smith about this topic pretty extensively when he set up my speakers year ago. I bought them used and after a couple of years called in Jim for help. He told me that when he was a dealer, the type of service he offered was generally included in the purchase of a product. I don't know the details and whether that was for the purchase of a whole system or just speakers, or a preamp, but he suggested that set up service is lacking today. I called my local dealer to see if I could pay them to set up the speakers and they said, sure, for a fee, but you can just as easily move them around in the room until they sound good. That told me all I needed to know. I declined the offer.

The dealer from whom I bought my first serious system came to set it all up for me. When he was aligning the cartridge on my new SME Model 10, he said that he thought only two dealers in all of MA were capable of setting up a turntable. That was in the mid 1990s.

 

[PeterA]

Separate to the above, it is worth distinguishing types of "set-up"

- Sometimes, a product requires product specific knowledge (TT/arm/carts installs, for example). This is where dealer knowledge to dial in is handy.
- Room measurements and acoustic treatment set up requires the person to have done it before a few times before.
- Some products require matching knowledge - this does not require in room set up, but requires one to say what amp or preamp your speaker/amp will better match. the choice here is to trust the dealer, a forum, or to investigate with your own ears. The last is the most rare. Once you identify the right match, you can just plug it in, like connecting an amp to a speaker or a pre to a power. Often, a lot of sales happen here because audiophiles are willing to trust the package from the dealer, or they keep buying randomly from the used market, blindly, till they get a match. In this case the dealer will often be a good enough though not necessary optimal.
- In order to match products properly, a dealer with a big portfolio is handy, e.g. you can go to Rhapsody's and try out various amps for Magico, push pull, SS class A, AB, etc. So if you identify the product you want to match with and a dealer with a big portfolio on that front is helpful.
- Speaker position requires zero dealer knowledge. The audiophile is either lazy or not lazy. He is willing to just let the speakers plop down, or he will spend time moving the speakers around, toe in and toe out. Now, if he cannot hear at what position in his room the speaker sounds best, and requires a dealer to tell him which is the ideal position, this is not set up. That same audiophile would have been clueless either way, he is just accepting the dealer suggestion.
- Same with chair position as above. If you can't judge your chair spot yourself, you might as well sit anywhere.
- For many audiophiles, knowing what to listen for is a learning process - they often learn this from the dealer - yes this is technically set up, but this results due to limited knowledge of the audiophile and his inability to listen to the right points and to make a judgement on the resultant sound to set up his system. Often, it leads to bad practices of using foo music on foo CDs and looking for weird attributes.
- A large part of set up comes from the fact that the audiophile does not know what is the optimal sound his gear can get. Most people have never heard optimally the gear they bought and installed themselves and did not hear set up in a better place. This is why they rely on dealers to make that best judgement
- Mike's room sounds great because after his room was designed 20 years ago, he spent hours daily tuning in his speaker position, his acoustics, himself. I have met a lot of people, Mike is by far the hardest working audiophile I know. And the General when it comes to LP, LP cleaning, music, performances and pieces etc. It is just not they bought something and it worked, they worked long hours and years at what they did. Similarly, check the Avalon system on my ZD page. A lot of time has been spent positioning those speakers and seat, not because of dealers. Jazzhead's room is small but his positioning is excellent. Again, no dealer.
- The truth is audiophiles just don't have time for this learning curve. They will just pay up, get someone to do the install or hire a consultant to do the set up.

Nice comprehensive post with some good opinions, Bonzo. Did you reach these conclusions on your own, or did you learn them from others? Perhaps some combination. You visit people, research alternatives, and compare components, perhaps more than anyone else on this forum, so even if you have a steep learning curve, you are learning rapidly.

Some tinker and experiment and improve and learn and this is the hobby for them. Others having less time or other interests, want to buy a good system they enjoy and listen to music and relax. And there are many other ways to approach the hobby in between.

Can I ask you how one can know "the optimal sound of his gear"? The ability to improve the sound of one's system is a skill. He can learn it by doing, or he can learn it from others, or he can have others do it for him. He can try to hear the gear set up really well somewhere and try to emulate it until he gets it close or better sounding, but how does he know when he is done that it is indeed optimal? What is the reference or basis by which he can judge? If it is real music, he will not reach it. He can keep trying to improve until he gives up either thinking he has achieved what is possible or realizing that he can't get there, but either way, how does he know what the optimal sound of his system is and how can he verify it?

ddk knows my system really really well. He lived with the gear and knows how it can perform. But was it optimized in the CES ballroom? Is that when it sounded its best? Is that sound in a home setting even achievable for an audiophile?

I think not knowing what is optimal and striving to get it ever closer to real is what motivated the audio hobbyist. Then a point comes when he simply wants to relax and enjoy his music. He has tried to optimize long enough. I think this point comes for each of us at a different time. What you are doing by traveling and enjoying other people's systems and gaining knowledge through comparisons is something different, and I think it gives you a somewhat unique perspective. You have the luxury of not having committed to one system in your own room. This frees you of limitations.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

 

[Al M.]

The dealer from whom I bought my first serious system came to set it all up for me. When he was aligning the cartridge on my new SME Model 10, he said that he thought only two dealers in all of MA were capable of setting up a turntable. That was in the mid 1990s.

Wow.

 

[bonzo75]

Nice comprehensive post with some good opinions, Bonzo. Did you reach these conclusions on your own, or did you learn them from others? Perhaps some combination. You visit people, research alternatives, and compare components, perhaps more than anyone else on this forum, so even if you have a steep learning curve, you are learning rapidly.

Some tinker and experiment and improve and learn and this is the hobby for them. Others having less time or other interests, want to buy a good system they enjoy and listen to music and relax. And there are many other ways to approach the hobby in between.

Can I ask you how one can know "the optimal sound of his gear"? The ability to improve the sound of one's system is a skill. He can learn it by doing, or he can learn it from others, or he can have others do it for him. He can try to hear the gear set up really well somewhere and try to emulate it until he gets it close or better sounding, but how does he know when he is done that it is indeed optimal? What is the reference or basis by which he can judge? If it is real music, he will not reach it. He can keep trying to improve until he gives up either thinking he has achieved what is possible or realizing that he can't get there, but either way, how does he know what the optimal sound of his system is and how can he verify it?

ddk knows my system really really well. He lived with the gear and knows how it can perform. But was it optimized in the CES ballroom? Is that when it sounded its best? Is that sound in a home setting even achievable for an audiophile?

I think not knowing what is optimal and striving to get it ever closer to real is what motivated the audio hobbyist. Then a point comes when he simply wants to relax and enjoy his music. He has tried to optimize long enough. I think this point comes for each of us at a different time. What you are doing by traveling and enjoying other people's systems and gaining knowledge through comparisons is something different, and I think it gives you a somewhat unique perspective. You have the luxury of not having committed to one system in your own room. This frees you of limitations.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

Peter,

you heard the MS and VDH optimized at ddk. After you came home, did the vdh sound similar, or completely different? I have also heard vdh sound extremely bad. Now, I know when this happens this sample is not right, or there is some mismatch, but someone listening for the first time or buying it blindly, might not know that.

Same with any speaker. When I owned Martin Logans, I visited different installs to learn about how much space they need from the back, different electronics, etc. I heard them with Krell, Levinson, Devialet, Audio research (later with many others). Then I saw one audiophile with better gear than I having his MLs right next to the wall in corners. That is the worst way to set up any panel. He had bought them used and never heard them set up properly.

Now visiting audiophiles I see this with everything. Their carts can often sound bad, Lampis with mismatched valves, underdriven speakers because they have never heard their speakers with different types of amps.

To your specific example, yes you heard your vitavox system optimally set up at ddk. CES would not have been an ideal location. Anyone who wants to buy the vitavox corner horn should now visit you to decide if they like it or not. Anyone who wants an Altec horn should visit Misho in Bulgaria - there are too many awful Altecs around. For each product, whether a speaker, a turntable, etc, there will be some excellent set ups and some poor ones. If you buy one of these and it sounds very unlike the set up you heard that impressed you, you know that something's wrong. Unfortunately those who buy blind, never hear what their components can achieve. They buy, try, sell off.

Actually, unless you have a massive budget, you will never be able to line up various amps, carts, etc at your place to find out which suits your component best. Good carts and speakers can be extremely bad sounding purely due to mismatch of components. You see so many questions here, I have got XYZ speaker what amp should I get? The guy then buys based on the recommendation of a forum poster he has no experience with listening. Just because he likes his online persona. Since he cannot go out and investigate, he will be better off buying from a dealer.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

you heard the MS and VDH optimized at ddk. After you came home, did the vdh sound similar, or completely different? I have also heard vdh sound extremely bad. Now, I know when this happens this sample is not right, or there is some mismatch, but someone listening for the first time or buying it blindly, might not know that.

Same with any speaker. When I owned Martin Logans, I visited different installs to learn about how much space they need from the back, different electronics, etc. I heard them with Krell, Levinson, Devialet, Audio research (later with many others). Then I saw one audiophile with better gear than I having his MLs right next to the wall in corners. That is the worst way to set up any panel. He had bought them used and never heard them set up properly.

Now visiting audiophiles I see this with everything. Their carts can often sound bad, Lampis with mismatched valves, underdriven speakers because they have never heard their speakers with different types of amps.

To your specific example, yes you heard your vitavox system optimally set up at ddk. CES would not have been an ideal location. Anyone who wants to buy the vitavox corner horn should now visit you to decide if they like it or not. Anyone who wants an Altec horn should visit Misho in Bulgaria - there are too many awful Altecs around. For each product, whether a speaker, a turntable, etc, there will be some excellent set ups and some poor ones. If you buy one of these and it sounds very unlike the set up you heard that impressed you, you know that something's wrong. Unfortunately those who buy blind, never hear what their components can achieve. They buy, try, sell off.

Actually, unless you have a massive budget, you will never be able to line up various amps, carts, etc at your place to find out which suits your component best. Good carts and speakers can be extremely bad sounding purely due to mismatch of components. You see so many questions here, I have got XYZ speaker what amp should I get? The guy then buys based on the recommendation of a forum poster he has no experience with listening. Just because he likes his online persona.

Bonzo, you make it sound very simple. I think we have different notions about what optimal means. First, you were describing a system performing at its optimal. This is quite different from picking the cartridge and assessing if it is set up as well as possible. The system is a much greater challenge, and it includes its context, the room.

I presume I heard David's vdH, along with his Neumann optimized in Utah. David knows what he is doing with cartridge set up. Is it the optimal vdH set up, the best that particular sample is capable of sounding? I think so, but how can I truly know? How would that same sample sound in AJ vdH's own set up? And how could one really separate its sound from the rest of the system to know if we are hearing everything it is capable of delivering? The best we can do is conclude that it sounds better in one context than in another. Good, better, and best are knowable after some comparisons. Optimal, or the best it is capable of ever sounding, especially for an entire system, is something else entirely.

After I came home from Utah, my different sample vdH, sounded different in my system. Yes, it sounded like a vdH Colibri, but the nuance and resolution were not at the same level. When I got the new system, that same sample suddenly sounded worse because the output was too much for the gain and efficiency of the new system. The high output was better matched for the Pass/Magico system. So back it went to the Netherlands for a complete modification. After hearing the result, I sent my second GC back for the same treatment.

I agree that many people have heard vdHs set up poorly, matched poorly, and had defective samples. There are all sorts of reasons things can sound poor, and people may simply have a different taste.

Regarding my specific example, no, I did not hear my Vitavox system set up optimally @ddk 's. The room was all wrong for those speakers and my Micro Seiki was not set up fully to hear the most from those speakers. We tried to modify the room to improve the sonics, but I ended up moving the speakers out into the room away from the corners, to hear their potential. They were far from optimal (best) sounding, but I could still hear some magic that I did not hear from the other speakers with the exception of his big Bionors. The Vitavoxs sound much better in my room.

People who heard a slightly later version of my Vitavoxs at CES still rave about them. I do not think they are optimal in my system and room because the room is too small. I would love to hear them in a much larger room with high ceilings and no protruding fireplace in between them. Despite that, they sound fantastic, and two visitors who have heard them, want to get them now. That is, if they can find them.

I agree with you that one can compare components in different set ups to judge relative sound and reach a preference. However, judging components in different system contexts and rooms is very different from judging an entire system as being set up optimally, which is what your earlier post was about. And judgements about relative performance is a far cry from knowing the component or system is fully "optimized", the best that it is capable of sounding. The best one can hope for is hearing the system or a set of components sound better than he has heard them before, and at a high enough level compared to what ever reference he is using, to be satisfied.

You have referred to MikeL's room as very special and perhaps the best room you have heard. Does that mean that a system heard in another room will always sound better in Mike's room? Can we really know if Mike's system would not sound even better than it now does if it were moved to an even better room?

The point I am trying to make is that we do what we can to the best of our own abilities or those of someone we hire. We make assessements based on our own experience and judgement and reference. At some point most of us reach a point and give up and simply relax to enjoy the music. A few never give up and keep trying to optimize. AJ vdH is one of those. But how can we ever be sure that a system is sounding optimal, the best that it is capable of sounding? I think the best we can hope for is that we have exhausted our attempts to hear it sound better elsewhere. That usually ends the pursuit for that system. And it is enough for the time being.

 

[bonzo75]

Hifi is very simple if you listen enough and stay sensible. Most problems happen due to impulse buying, lack of listening, and various incorrect perceptions formed by reading. I will reply in more detail later, I am headed to the gym now. I know, strange on the forum

 

[Folsom]

 

[bonzo75]

I presume I heard David's vdH, along with his Neumann optimized in Utah. David knows what he is doing with cartridge set up. Is it the optimal vdH set up, the best that particular sample is capable of sounding?

HI Peter, maybe my use of optimal is incorrect. By optimal, I mean excellent sounding, does the magic on the listener enough to amke him want to buy, and if the listener goes and checks out other installs, he hears it at a similar level when sounding good. I have heard vdh in Tang's, and those set up by Shick, Shroeder, and Kevin Scott of Vox. I also heard it sounding excellent at an audiophile in Norway, and I heard it sound bad as well. I also heard it set up by vdh in his room at Munich. I would say all these were optimal, in the sense they repeated the magic of vdh at similar levels. None of them was stonkingly better than the other, nor was meh or bad. I was able to compare to other carts on other tables and arms in Norway, to the Tsar DST on the other table in the Schich Schroeder room, and in Tang's. Even with some dissimilarities, the vdh magic was evident. I also heard another one compared through Aesthetix IO Eclipse and Allnic H5000 in another set up. My least favorite was actually through the VDH grail in VDH room, so I concluded that unless proven otherwise, I will settle for it in a valve phono. I would love to listen to it through the Mayer in Audioquattr room

I did not know you had not heard the vitavox optimally set up. My bad

I agree that many people have heard vdHs set up poorly, matched poorly, and had defective samples. There are all sorts of reasons things can sound poor, and people may simply have a different taste.

In this case you can say they have different tastes only if you know they heard one of those good set ups that you liked and they didn't like it. Today, I do not know if kodomo and bazelio (based on their vdh reports) have different tastes because they could simply have heard a bad sample.

You have referred to MikeL's room as very special and perhaps the best room you have heard. Does that mean that a system heard in another room will always sound better in Mike's room? Can we really know if Mike's system would not sound even better than it now does if it were moved to an even better room?

I have heard MM3 and 458 in another room, it sucked. This is optimal enough. After hearing many systems, and seeing most rooms untreated (you can simply look around at pictures), those which are treated poorly treated, and trusting the process of filtration (Mike has had a 100+ visitors I guess), I am fine with the fact that there might be a remote lurker somewhere with a better treated room, but that is not going to change the data point much. And in my example above, I was trying to point out that his success comes from hard work. Moving speakers around, chair around, etc. He could have easily chosen not to do it. As does my Avalon buddy or jazzhead on a smaller scale.

I do not think they are optimal in my system and room because the room is too small. I would love to hear them in a much larger room with high ceilings and no protruding fireplace in between them.

Your room is optimal for a corner horn. In a much larger room, one would get a full horn that can be pulled outside. Part of your vitavox magic is that it makes living and music possible in normal rooms, for which yours is ideal. The average London flat has your room size. The budget goes up drastically once you look for 20 feet x 14 feet plus

I agree with you that one can compare components in different set ups to judge relative sound and reach a preference. However, judging components in different system contexts and rooms is very different from judging an entire system as being set up optimally, which is what your earlier post was about.

You have the choice to listen to the entire system you buy, or the component you do, in your context. If you listen to it in only one, you will not be able to separate the sound from the context. If you listen to it in multiple, and check for differences with other similar components, you will get repeatable sound signatures (like I found with vdh, or with Lampi,or any gear heard properly in multiple contextsc). With red sparrow, we managed to establish it sounds great with linear trackers and sucks with pivots. When you get your mind to it if you want to figure out what a component does, and what a system does, you can.

Now, let me give you some typical examples that I had in mind when I wrote my original post that you replied to
1. one survey done by Davey on WBF, showed that 95% or some such ridiculous number bought their carts unheard.
2. Today itself, we have two posts on the forum:
a. One proudly stating he has always bought his entire gear unheard, and he will upgrade to the next version of Magico S7 when it comes out
b. Another listening to Dartzeel 468 on Estelon, loving it, and considering it for his high efficiency PAP horns. And not even the 468, but the 108. How crazy is that connection? He should simply get the Estelons instead.
3. Another friend, high budget, very sensible if you are sitting and listening with him, was interested in an expensive pair of amps. He went to check them out in Munich. The room sucked, he thought so too. Yet, after a few days, he bought them. he just wanted to buy the amps, checking out at Munich was just rationalizing a decision.

What I am trying to highlight with 1, 2, and 3, is that with such decision making, which is common, not exceptions, no one will get a nice set up except by accident. Such people have to use a dealer.

 

[DaveC]

In most product categories you can spend whatever you like... cars, clothes, bikes, etc.

Similarly there are a wide range of competencies, distribution models, etc. in all manner of products at all price ranges.

But why is audio so different that people have to put down what others have? The article referenced at the beginning of the thread laments high prices for audio gear. Why isn't this more common with cars? Seemingly nobody lament the existence of Buggatis, Ferraris and Astons, and if they do it's seen as sour grapes, complaining about something you can't afford is not seen as reasonable behavior in so many other hobbies or product categories. Yet in audio it's very common to complain about prices, with high $ items seen as negative and low-priced gear often seen as inferior with seeming disregard for actual sonic performance at both price ranges. I've never seen so much concern for what's available, combined with conspiratorial views of "the industry" trying to take advantage of us. I think it's ridiculous.

I've been involved in racing my car for a couple years now and I see a lot of similarities. I go to races and compete against cars that cost from $5k to $250k. But for some reason people in that hobby are not so concerned with the costs and don't judge other people and cars according to cost. It's true that some can't afford much and run less expensive cars that cost little in consumables, others run cars that might cost what a decent audio system costs in consumables every year, cars can make even the highest end audio systems seem like small potatoes. With that said, maybe people don't understand that for some, dropping $1M on an audio system just isn't that big of a deal. This allows audio companies to design and build without regard to cost, which advances the art and eventually benefits items that are designed to a price point. Same with cars, if nobody could afford cost-no-object cars the world wouldn't be quite as exciting as it is. And lesser priced cars wouldn;t benefit from all the money put into the high-$ designs.

So I have to totally reject the misplaced complaining about the existence of cost-no-object goods. I think it's an indefensible position with questionable motivations behind it.

I also want to point out this doesn't mean I think the current wealth disparity in the world today is healthy, that's not exactly related. There's some overlap, but it's not straightforward imo. There's always going to be folks with a drive to create businesses and others that would simply like to live in a monastery. The world is big enough for both ends of the spectrum, and it's more a question of people having opportunity rather than having money, which is why I don't think it's closely related. So I also reject the thought that wealth is some sort of a problem, which seems to be a basis for condemning high-$ audio gear. Without wealth there could be no cost-no-object goods, which would be worse for everyone as described above.

On other only slightly related topic is that of direct-sale... It's not nearly as easy as some might assume, including myself before I started a direct-sale business. The value of distributors and dealers, if they do a good job, is not to be underestimated. I still think direct-sale is a great way to go, but a direct sale business has a massive amount of extra work to do vs a company that never interacts with customers directly. I think you can get a much better value direct, if you're willing to do the research and don't require the services and convenience a dealer can provide. I think we should be grateful that both exist, they are really for different types of customers though.