The Truth about Whats Best Forum

[Lagonda]

Wow - they look so cool, I've only seen them in black where the gold volume control against the black is quite .elegant.

I have the Black/Gold 928 to go with the black gold MBL amps. The 200 series is Stainless/Gold, Bo designed some of the nicest looking gear in my opinion.

 

[tima]

I have the Black/Gold 928 to go with the black gold MBL amps. The 200 series is Stainless/Gold, Bo designed some of the nicest looking gear in my opinion.

Pictures?

 

[microstrip]

I bough my 204 CD player used directly from Bo Chrstensen, the matching preamp came from Jamaica ! Bo sold me my first high-end system when i was in my early twenties , Martin Logan CLS and a set of his own Primare 928 pre/amp mid 80's, i still own it all. He was the importer of ML at the time. It was definitely a blast from the past when i picked up the CD player at his house 35 years later ! I also purchased a Bow Technology CD player and integrated amp directly from him for my 80 year old mom, she always gets compliments from her friends about the sound and looks of this gear and the Sonus Faber speakers i paired it with. Bow was the company he started after Primare.

Small world, I sold Bo Chrstensen my 204 for his own collection when I decided to part with the Primare's. A good friend became distributor of Primare during the 90's and I have bough him more than one 204 during its life time. At that time he send me photos of the new line he was designing in Artora Audio, his new company . I know the company was later bought by Roksan who got the design concept - no buttons at all - and looks.

My friend was also the Forsell and Cello distributor - great crazy days!

 

[PeterA]

Thanks for the suggestion, Brad. For now I'm trying to simplify my system in the power/cords/cables department, hoping to hear the components I have rather than 'tuned' components or components with auxiliaries, even when such may bring sonic appeal. Not exactly back to nature but having a baseline before adding something else.

Tim, do you feel that your current cables and power cords are adding a signature to the sound of your system? What are you currently using and what are you going to replace them with?

 

[tima]

Tim, do you feel that your current cables and power cords or adding a signature to the sound of your system? Where are you currently using and what are you gonna replace them with?

I've had Shunyata for 15 years or so and until recently had all their top model interconnects and power cords across that time, along with various wires from other tiers. They make quality products and do a top job describing what is in them and what they do in terms of measurement. I've reviewed several of their products. Product focus is on noise reduction and conductivity. Yes, I think it is fair to say there is a signature to their signal cables and a signature to the power cords and distributors.

Currently I am trying several longish (7m-8m) interconnects from preamp to amps. Among those are an XLR pair of Mogami 2534 that I had when I was using Atma-Sphere gear and new are RCA Canare L-4E6S ICs. I also have a couple pair of FMS Zero ICs from back when I had C-J electronics - I used to call them the Queen of Tonality. I'm trying 2m Duelund DCA12GA speaker cable w/out connectors. There are others on the way. All are inexpensive. I've been using CC power cords straight into the wall along with one tied to a Hubbel Quad. I'm not able to offer any assessment or conclusions for now - this will play out overtime.

Imo, other than for relative comparison "neutrality" is a myth. Every cable has measurements and a signature. Some have intent and are distinguished by their signature. I'm looking for something without intent; I want to hear the sound of my components and system.

 

[Lagonda]

I have the Black/Gold 928 to go with the black gold MBL amps. The 200 series is Stainless/Gold, Bo designed some of the nicest looking gear in my opinion.

I have no good pictures in my photo album, i will try to remember to take some when i get home. Patience, plenty of clutter to clean up first, my house is one big man-cave/audio project !

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Greetings from down unda, Melbourne is going back to normal slowly... but Sydney in a bit of a muddle, cases are increasing... in lockdown for at least another month.

Getting back to the topic about WBF and that we're rich guys running a mock. Well reading through the article, I clearly understand where he's coming from. However, reading on further I'm not quite sure why he's targeting WBF, seems like he's got some beef with someone or with audiophiles in general. Perhaps he doesn't like audiophiles, so be it!

In all my early years when I ran our dealership network, I've put together various systems for a large customer base over the years, and none of these customers had similar budgets. Although similar in tastes and brand selection but definitely not gear selection.

There were the rude snobs who didn't want to walk in or deal with us, simply because we didn't offer anything that was over 200grand... then there were those who were afraid to walk in thinking they would need to spend at least 100grand in order to gain our attention or interest. Back in the day, we didn't have social media or forums, just the Net and that was slowly kicking off.

Nonetheless, it took a little perceiverence to follow through and educate these new hifi enthusiasts, just like we all started at one point. After having setup at people's homes (which was a service we offered foc simply because we loved what we did), that person would invite others over for home-demos. So they would compare notes and view how we setup every item, and eventually started buying from us. Word gets around and that's how we took off. No advertising or magazine sponsorships whatsoever, just hard core positive setups, word of mouth and true dedicated customer service. Most of these people ended up being close friends and family mates, I guess it was a small country to deal with, within a fairly large and well connected region, being Sth East Asian. It all depends on trust.

Anyway, one thing we all learned was that no matter how well we setup the customers' room and their systems, we didn't know everything, merely because we don't live in their room/house. Only they will ever truly understand the way in which their systems perform vs room interaction. So we would get follow up calls saying that they moved their speakers a bit and adjusted this... and they were thrilled with the results, and that we should come over for a listen. And so we did! This not only reinforced the importance of further tweaking and minor adjustments but also reinforced the customer-dealer relationship, that was the strongest attribute I had.

However, as time went by my other full time job at Canon Inc took most of my time and business travel became more hectic. Eventually I resigned from the company, sold off the Audio business and migrated to Aus.

Having read through that article, I can relate to that quite closely but I'm not sure why the focus is on WBF. Anyway, at the end of the day, putting together a high-end system is an art form. It takes years to do so and even longer to develop the right ear for it. I've always offered one piece of advice to all my customers and dear mates, and that is, buy only what you can afford. Set it up properly by seeking advice from knowledgeable and trained professionals, and just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!

Whether price correlates to sound and performance, I don't know if that could be distinguished as simple as that. There are a vast number of systems that cost far less that can easily surpass the overall quality in sound compared to some lofty ones. However, there are some top line gear that very easily surpass anything in front of it, and the comparisons, arguments, debates and mud slinging goes on...

At the end of the day, what really counts is, whatever system you've put together at whatever price, in whatever shape size and form, if it makes you happy and fully satisfied, that's all that matters! I am with mine

I have had my fingers burnt many times and I've over spent in certain areas which were highly unnecessary but I didn't know better. Obviously learned the hard way... overall comparing the total bill of what I've spent on my entire system, heck! Some people here spend that kind of money just on speakers! So really speaking, I don't agree with the author that we're running a mock. Definitely not. Spend whatever you want and be happy!

Cheers maties, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
Big WOOF!!!
RJ

 

[Lagonda]

Pictures?

Sorry, i am not great at taking pictures !

https://www.primare.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/HFN-Feb-Vintage-Review_Primare-928-Reprint.pdf#:~:text=PRIMARE%20928%20PRE%2FMONO%20%28Vintage%29%20Both%20the%20928%20preamp,22V%20from%20a%20vanishing%20low%201ohm%20source%20impedance.

This is my homebuilt "rack" located behind a small brick wall shielding it from the main listening room. It is on a separate concrete foundation from the main room, and has a separate elevated wood floor. The center piece where the TT stands is made of 1000 Lbs of tile directly cemented on the foundation, i have cut a hole in the wood floor The side pieces are Vandersteen subs, with shelving made of granite. This serves as TV system, when i don't listen to music.

 

[cal3713]

I've had Shunyata for 15 years or so and until recently had all their top model interconnects and power cords across that time, along with various wires from other tiers. They make quality products and do a top job describing what is in them and what they do in terms of measurement. I've reviewed several of their products. Product focus is on noise reduction and conductivity. Yes, I think it is fair to say there is a signature to their signal cables and a signature to the power cords and distributors.

Currently I am trying several longish (7m-8m) interconnects from preamp to amps. Among those are an XLR pair of Mogami 2534 that I had when I was using Atma-Sphere gear and new are RCA Canare L-4E6S ICs. I also have a couple pair of FMS Zero ICs from back when I had C-J electronics - I used to call them the Queen of Tonality. I'm trying 2m Duelund DCA12GA speaker cable w/out connectors. There are others on the way. All are inexpensive. I've been using CC power cords straight into the wall along with one tied to a Hubbel Quad. I'm not able to offer any assessment or conclusions for now - this will play out overtime.

Imo, other than for relative comparison "neutrality" is a myth. Every cable has measurements and a signature. Some have intent and are distinguished by their signature. I'm looking for something without intent; I want to hear the sound of my components and system.

Hi Tima, since you're looking at simple cables, you might consider trying out the Tempo Electric wire: http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables_speaker-cables.htm.

It's simply 99.99% pure solid core silver wire in an oversized teflon jacket without terminations (and a 30-day home demo period). I was motivated to go the same route as you, where I knew exactly what I was buying and paying for... I initially had the Duelund tinned-copper but preferred the T.E. High quality solid core wire, low dialectic insulator (mostly air because the teflon is oversized), and no connectors to go through. No snake oil or BS possible. After I experienced the first speaker cables I replaced all the internal wire in my speakers (Coincident Pure Reference Extreme's) with the Tempo Electric.

 

[dcathro]

Sorry, i am not great at taking pictures !

https://www.primare.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/HFN-Feb-Vintage-Review_Primare-928-Reprint.pdf#:~:text=PRIMARE%20928%20PRE%2FMONO%20%28Vintage%29%20Both%20the%20928%20preamp,22V%20from%20a%20vanishing%20low%201ohm%20source%20impedance.

View attachment 80576View attachment 80577View attachment 80580

This is my homebuilt "rack" located behind a small brick wall shielding it from the main listening room. It is on a separate concrete foundation from the main room, and has a separate elevated wood floor. The center piece where the TT stands is made of 1000 Lbs of tile directly cemented on the foundation, i have cut a hole in the wood floor The side pieces are Vandersteen subs, with shelving made of granite. This serves as TV system, when i don't listen to music.

I definitely think that you should be awarded the "WBF run Amok" award for your efforts

 

[dcathro]

Getting back to the topic about WBF and that we're rich guys running a mock. Well reading through the article, I clearly understand where he's coming from. However, reading on further I'm not quite sure why he's targeting WBF, seems like he's got some beef with someone or with audiophiles in general. Perhaps he doesn't like audiophiles, so be it!


Having read through that article, I can relate to that quite closely but I'm not sure why the focus is on WBF.

Hey RJ, I didn't see where WBF was mentioned in the article.

 

[Lagonda]

I definitely think that you should be awarded the "WBF run Amok" award for your efforts

I have also knocked down a load bearing brick wall and covered my windows and 80% of the sliding glass doors with 2 inches of MDF to get better acoustics and a 39 foot listening room ! Yes i am bonkers !

 

[dcathro]

I have also knocked dowm a bearing brick wall and covered my windows and 80% of the sliding glass doors with 2 inches of MDF to get better acoustics and a 39 feet listening room ! Yes i am bonkers !

Definitely certifiable!!!!!!

Still, much better than spending gazzillions on a merry-go-round of uber product dumped in a poorly thought out, untreated room!

You get my vote.

 

[DaveC]

No snake oil or BS possible.

Except it'll corrode. That's a pretty big deal imo.

 

[tima]

Hi Tima, since you're looking at simple cables, you might consider trying out the Tempo Electric wire: http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables_speaker-cables.htm.

It's simply 99.99% pure solid core silver wire in an oversized teflon jacket without terminations (and a 30-day home demo period). I was motivated to go the same route as you, where I knew exactly what I was buying and paying for... I initially had the Duelund tinned-copper but preferred the T.E. High quality solid core wire, low dialectic insulator (mostly air because the teflon is oversized), and no connectors to go through. No snake oil or BS possible. After I experienced the first speaker cables I replaced all the internal wire in my speakers (Coincident Pure Reference Extreme's) with the Tempo Electric.

Thanks cal3713 for the suggestion. Sounds like the Tempo Electric solid silver wire works well for you. I also like no connectors. What did you think of the Duelund? The ones I'm trying probably are not broken-in yet.

Some time back I tried solid-core Anti-Cables from Paul Speltz - they were 'okay'. For now my inclination is to continue with copper.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey RJ, I didn't see where WBF was mentioned in the article.

Yeah, looks like I kind of missed that. Referring to the title of the thread "the truth about wbf" then referring to the article...

He does have very valid points though but price vs performance is something we can debate till the kookabas come home. I understand what he's trying to say and I've seen it go all too wrong in many cases over the years. Not only here but also in Sth East Asia, where they are very critical over price. Some of those guys won't even consider anything less than 50grand, and this is what Doug is referring to, I totally get that.

However, like I said it's upto those who want to know about real sound, vfm and what's out there. Once that is experienced there's always a win!

Cheers, RJ

 

[morricab]

And was

I have also knocked down a load bearing brick wall and covered my windows and 80% of the sliding glass doors with 2 inches of MDF to get better acoustics and a 39 foot listening room ! Yes i am bonkers !

it really worth it?

 

[morricab]

Except it'll corrode. That's a pretty big deal imo.

Silver oxide is electrically conductive still...unlike most other oxides...and in a low oxygen environment like in a Teflon sheath it will take a long time to significantly oxidize.

 

[Lagonda]

And was

it really worth it?

Absolutely ! I had a much more uniform bass response and treble dispersion with MDF instead of glass. When i knocked down the half brick wall and went from 6 m to 12 meter room dimensions, the extra length gave bass development in the room a big step forward, especially standing waves at 50-60 HZ disappeared, giving new details in the bass range. My system does go low in the bass range and the extra space was a big improvement. The larger room also looks better, and after having replicated the half wall in my "rack" ( i was using the top of the half wall for equipment) i still have the very solid foundation for my equipment, i can drop a anvil right next to my TT without skipping a beat !

 

[assessor43]

Recently I was in my local hi end dealer and they were setting up some new speakers that were in excess of 200,000.00. I said to him are you sure they sound as good as the Klipschorn? Of course immediately the response was Cmon man. Well, just because its more expensive does not mean it will sound better and if it is indeed better, how much better? Klipschorns is the right system can sound pretty darn good, very alive. yes there are some diminishing returns when it comes to audio but if you have the means to chase your dreams, why not?