The Truth about Whats Best Forum

[Al M.]

Absolutely ! I had a much more uniform bass response and treble dispersion with MDF instead of glass. When i knocked down the half brick wall and went from 6 m to 12 meter room dimensions, the extra length gave bass development in the room a big step forward, especially standing waves at 50-60 HZ disappeared, giving new details in the bass range. My system does go low in the bass range and the extra space was a big improvement. The larger room also looks better, and after having replicated the half wall in my "rack" ( i was using the top of the half wall for equipment) i still have the very solid foundation for my equipment, i can drop a anvil right next to my TT without skipping a beat !

It is refreshing to see an audiophile prioritizing the room. The best gear does not nearly sound as good as it could and should if the room is not right.

A big thumbs up, Milan!

***

While I have to live with the room that I have, I still try to improve it as much as possible, even though I am slower with that endeavor than I could be (and I have nobody to blame but myself).

 

[assessor43]

A

It is refreshing to see an audiophile prioritizing the room. The best gear does not nearly sound as good as it could and should if the room is not right.

A big thumbs up, Milan!

***

While I have to live with the room that I have, I still try to improve it as much as possible, even though I am slower with that endeavor than I could be (and I have nobody to blame but myself).

Agree. I think the room could be the most important component of all. I wish I had taken that into account earlier on.

 

[Lagonda]

It is refreshing to see an audiophile prioritizing the room. The best gear does not nearly sound as good as it could and should if the room is not right.

A big thumbs up, Milan!

***

While I have to live with the room that I have, I still try to improve it as much as possible, even though I am slower with that endeavor than I could be (and I have nobody to blame but myself).

I my case it probably helps that i don't have to consider the WAF ! I have driven two wife's running for the hills and my obsession with audio is probably one of the reasons ! I do think you can get a lot of improvements with home built concepts, not that i object to having a acoustician build your room for you. Doing it yourself, in increments, gives you a lot of before/after information that i find invaluable. I have often gone back to something i had previously, because the latest "improvement" did not sound right.

 

[KeithR]

Which dealer comes to set up any turntable or speakers properly? I think you are far too generous in characterizing the actual level of service provided by dealers.

Which dealer makes even just a tenth of the effort of people like Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle, who make system set-up a living and who spend one or two full days at a client?

It's not just the effort, it also seems that knowledge is often lacking among dealers.

Many dealers here. You need to get out of your Goodwins bubble more.

 

[Al M.]

Many dealers here. You need to get out of your Goodwins bubble more.

It's not just one dealer that I'm talking about.

 

[PeterA]

Many dealers here. You need to get out of your Goodwins bubble more.

Nice observation Keith. Bonzo made a very similar suggestion. Mike at Suncoast/Audioshark posts many photos of his speaker installations, as does Bob at Rhapsody. These guys seem to get out of their shops to help their clients.

 

[Al M.]

I my case it probably helps that i don't have to consider the WAF !

I don't either, fortunately. My room is fully dedicated to audio at this point.

 

[Joe Whip]

I have been fortunate to have had a room dedicated to audio since before we were married. My audio has never been in shall I say public spaces in our home. It has always helped immensely. When the room was demolished 4 years ago, I blew out the attic as part of the job and built the room just for audio. Looks like the old room only bigger when better dimensions. Couldn’t be happier.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Recently I was in my local hi end dealer and they were setting up some new speakers that were in excess of 200,000.00. I said to him are you sure they sound as good as the Klipschorn? Of course immediately the response was Cmon man. Well, just because its more expensive does not mean it will sound better and if it is indeed better, how much better? Klipschorns is the right system can sound pretty darn good, very alive. yes there are some diminishing returns when it comes to audio but if you have the means to chase your dreams, why not?

200grand...!
That's what I'm talking about. Also the point Doug was trying to make in his article.

Before spending 200grand, there are so many other areas to look at; room, equipment, racks, setup, AC wiring, grounding, cables and accessories and so on... after these have been fully assessed, and if it's the speakers that really need to be changed / upgraded to 200grand, then so be it. Obviously some those who can afford these types of systems will find it an absolute necessity to spend 200grand on speakers. There's no reconciliation, regardless of whether it's only a marginal improvement or not. I guess it's all about prestige, which is the core mindset of such.

The Klipsch horns for that matter will definitely sound very alive properly setup, and every high quality speakers for that matter. The only question remains is before spending 200grand, whether or not the new buyer would ever consider listening to anything for less...

I wish them all the best, and do hope they enjoy those fine tunes to come.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Speaking of dedicated rooms, over the decades never did so. Primarily because my dad allowed us to have our reference gear in the main living room. It was for all to share, not just get cooped up in there and close the door to rest of society and the household. As the years went by, the more people who we entertained actually ended up being our customers!

Then in 2001 I met my Mrs of my dreams and 20 years later (still the same wifey) she absolutely loves the audio gear. She never wanted me to place it in a dedicated room, for two reasons:
1. In case I fall asleep knocked out and I've disappeared off for few hours, she knows where to find me. Wake up with a good twist of the ears, ouch! To find the stylus hitting the inner edge of the LP label...
2. Since most of my listening sessions are around midnight, she can yell across from the room to let me know what she thinks of what's spinning... mostly Norah Jones, Anne Bisson and Cassandra Wilson lulls her to sleep. Then comes out the core jazz!

Of course during our dealership years, I had dedicated rooms but those were solely setup for demos and closing sales, nothing else.
Now with this careful plan of living room space, it's for all to enjoy and absorb those fine tunes. Infact, to think of it, I have converted a few into buying CJ gear and Martin Logan stats. So I guess that's a good thing. When I say everyone enjoys the tunes, including the cats. This one fella absolutely loves jazz and vocals! He's dozed off...

Cheers maties, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

 

[thedudeabides]

For most of us the only reason we don't have a mega-buck system is because we can't.

I hope not. Could I afford better, more expensive gear, yes. Do I want to, no. At some point, common sense and the performance / price equation has to be a major factor for ordinary, sensible folks. I've auditioned enough gear to know this is true. It is no secret that high end audio pricing, in many cases, is absurd. Wire is probably the prime example. Recycled technology to produce a claimed "newer and better" product, with a higher price tag, is another.

I admire and respect manufacturers who don't need to produce a new product line on a one to three year interval to stay in business and make a profit. Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm versus the exception in our hobby.

 

[Gregadd]

I recall when the Stax headphone/amp system inexplicably doubled in price. I was so upset I decided not to buy it. I could kick myself for not pulling the trigger before the price increase. This prompted people to buy it direct from Japan. Stax responded by refusing to honor the warranty.

 

[microstrip]

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - Rich Guys and Reviewers Running Amok in Hi-Fi

www.soundstagehifi.com

Nothing new in this article - I have read similar arguments on articles dozens of times.

The laws of diminishing return apply but are compensated by the subjective preference laws - if a components has specific aspects we appreciate better we are ready to consider it an excellent value.

Since long people have debated what is the optimum point of price versus performance without a concrete definitive answer. But , IMHO if properly spent, more expense means better performance. BTW fun is even harder to quantify than enjoyment and is also part of the hobby.

 

[Daverich4]

For example, in auto, a ferrari owner will never claim he bought it because it was the best for mileage or to move his family around, take the kids to school, or go shopping.

But audio is different. People who buy to make an announcement do often claim they did it because it also has better sonics.

A Ferrari owner won’t claim he bought it to take the kids to school but he will claim it’s the fastest or corners better or stops quicker, any of a number of things someone buying that class of car is interested in. In other words, no different at all from someone buying expensive audio. Whether the claims are true is something else.

 

[PeterA]

A Ferrari owner won’t claim he bought it to take the kids to school but he will claim it’s the fastest or corners better or stops quicker, any of a number of things someone buying that class of car is interested in. In other words, no different at all from someone buying expensive audio. Whether the claims are true is something else.

I agree. Whether it’s the owner/buyer or the press, claims are made about performance for both the Ferrari and for expensive audio gear. There is also the element of subjective preference because some people would rather have a Porsche or Maserati or Lamborghini.

 

[audioquest4life]

Hi Tima, since you're looking at simple cables, you might consider trying out the Tempo Electric wire: http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables_speaker-cables.htm.

It's simply 99.99% pure solid core silver wire in an oversized teflon jacket without terminations (and a 30-day home demo period). I was motivated to go the same route as you, where I knew exactly what I was buying and paying for... I initially had the Duelund tinned-copper but preferred the T.E. High quality solid core wire, low dialectic insulator (mostly air because the teflon is oversized), and no connectors to go through. No snake oil or BS possible. After I experienced the first speaker cables I replaced all the internal wire in my speakers (Coincident Pure Reference Extreme's) with the Tempo Electric.

I also use T.E. Pure solid core silver with Teflon jacket, but, I use it for interconnects between my Octave Jubilee preamp and the McIntosh MC2301 mono amps. Those interconnects are the last place I will ever think about changing. They do what they need to do exceptionally well.

Oh, the audacity of outsiders to call us WBF chaps rich men or women who run amok frivolously spending money without really knowing anything about what makes us tick, our system goals, and if anyone’s won the lottery lately The horror of it all! Who really cares at the end of the day? Not me, more important things to worry about, like, when my freaking back is going to heal after my recent spine surgery, so I can enjoy my lustful equipment tat I have acquired and amassed over the years.

 

[cal3713]

Thanks cal3713 for the suggestion. Sounds like the Tempo Electric solid silver wire works well for you. I also like no connectors. What did you think of the Duelund? The ones I'm trying probably are not broken-in yet.

Some time back I tried solid-core Anti-Cables from Paul Speltz - they were 'okay'. For now my inclination is to continue with copper.

I liked it, but thought that the solid core silver was a step forward in every way. I had a preamp with multiple identical inputs, wired internally with the Duelund. I put solid core silver on one input (VH Audio silver in a cotton sleeve), a single strand of Duelund inside of a teflon tube on another, and left the original on a third. I preferred them in that order. When comparing the stranded Duelund (in oiled cotton) to the single strand of Duelund (in oversized teflon), the single strand won. There was some blurring to the stranded. Fairly or not, I will never go back to stranded, be it copper or silver.

I also had the Anti-Cables at one point. I liked them for their no BS approach, but the truth is that they are just "OK" as you say. Far inferior to both the Duelund and Tempo Electric.

 

[tima]

I liked it, but thought that the solid core silver was a step forward in every way. I had a preamp with multiple identical inputs, wired internally with the Duelund. I put solid core silver on one input (VH Audio silver in a cotton sleeve), a single strand of Duelund inside of a teflon tube on another, and left the original on a third. I preferred them in that order. When comparing the stranded Duelund (in oiled cotton) to the single strand of Duelund (in oversized teflon), the single strand won. There was some blurring to the stranded. Fairly or not, I will never go back to stranded, be it copper or silver.

I also had the Anti-Cables at one point. I liked them for their no BS approach, but the truth is that they are just "OK" as you say. Far inferior to both the Duelund and Tempo Electric.

thanks for your follow-up.

 

[tima]

I admire and respect manufacturers who don't need to produce a new product line on a one to three year interval to stay in business and make a profit. Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm versus the exception in our hobby.

Yes, 'pity' the manufacturer who gets it right the first time. Although, word does get out and there are, as you say, exceptions. Often the exceptions are exceptional. Consider the Lamm basic phono stage. It was introduced in 2002 (LP2) and since had a single 'upgrade' (LP2.1) to include better parts not previously available. If a component was designed for the way we hear ... other than some high frequency loss, our ears don't change.

 

[cal3713]

If a component was designed for the way we hear ... other than some high frequency loss, our ears don't change.

+1. Well said.