The Upgrade Company

[DonH50]

Curious... Ferrite material on top of chips has been done many times in the past but I don't doubt that it was never patented before for your specific application. It might help control RFI if you provide enough shielding; it could also help control EMI by reducing edge speeds to/from the chips. It could also make them run hotter, slowing CMOS chips down somewhat (and speeding up bipolar chips).

I wonder how much RFI actually is captured from outside a chassis, since it is typically shielded (most components are in metal boxes). I suspect shielding specific chips from RFI/EMI within the box could be helpful...

Increased amplitude could improve performance if the rise time stays the same, providing a higher slew rate. That would tend to open the width of the eye. Of course, higher slew rates generate more RFI... I would love to see before and after eyes -- that shouldn't give away any secrets and could show definitively the benefits of shielding (plus whatever). I suppose the catch is the BER may be so small it doesn't matter (and then we can debate the definitions of "small" and "doesn't matter").

 

[welwynnick]

I wonder how much RFI actually is captured from outside a chassis, since it is typically shielded (most components are in metal boxes). I suspect shielding specific chips from RFI/EMI within the box could be helpful...

I think the thrust of this is that the RFI comes from inside the box, from digital and audio processors, clocks, receivers, transmitters, switching power supplies, front panel displays, that sort of thing.

Nick

 

[fas42]

RFI comes from inside the box, from digital and audio processors, clocks, receivers, transmitters, switching power supplies

And outside as well. David is correct that RFI is indeed a key part of solving the sound quality problem, this is something that I am particularly playing with at the moment. When you get a system to a certain state of performance it becomes remarkably easy to hear the impact of a single mobile or cell phone being on or off (unless it's Jack's! ), so work definitely needs to be done in this area ...

Frank

 

[mrssrs69]

A little over one year ago I had decided to find a Home theater processor to replace my Proceed AVP2. When I purchased the Proceed I thought it was future proof. Before that I changed equipment like most people change their socks. After some research, I decide on an Onkyo 885 and found a new one for a good price on Audiogon. I received the unit, hooked it up and was very impressed by the vidio portion and it's wide range of features. One of my main reasons for changing was for the new HD audio codecs and the one cable HDMI feature. The stock unit is very good but is very lacking in the quality of it's audio section. After looking around on the internet for a few weeks, I came across an article about the upgrade company and David Schulte. David and I emailed back and forth for a while before I decided to send him my unit for his signature upgrade. In the meantime , my best friend sold his B&K processor and purchased an 885 also. We both sent our 885's to Dave at the same time for upgrade. I will admit that Dave is very cautious about his procedures. I tried everything to get Photos, a list of parts, anything on the upgrade. I guess that if I were in his shoes with all of the negative crap he has to put up with, I would be cautious too. FYI, Every once in a while Dave will send me few photos of the new stuff he is working on. I guess I earned his trust. After about three weeks our units arrived back and were back into our systems within just a few days. The very first thing we noticed was how much improved the video was, now granted we are using wireworlds very best silver HDMI cables but even with run of the mill cables, the richness of the picture and the depth of the blacks will blow you away. It took a little while for the audio to come around but after it did I would put it up against the best out there. This last june I had a chance to buy a Halcro processor for a very good price. I had the unit on loan for two weeks in my system and finally declined the offer because in my opinion the Moddified Onkyo is just as good. I like the Onkyo so well that I recently Purchased an almost new 5507 and sent my 885 back to David for his additional upgrades. My 885 is finished now and on it's way home. As soon as it arrives, I will be sending my 5507 to him to work his magic on. I am allready looking forward to the completion of my 5507 and my 885 will be going to my Son for the start of his new system. I am a firm believer in good quality Mod's and upgrades to good equipment and over the last few years I find myself doing that more often than purchasing new. My buddy and I are planning to send our OPPO 93's to Dave in the very near future, We both feel that compared the the money we have spent on new equipment or cables, the money we spent having Dave upgrade our Processors was better spent. My advise is not to listen to the negative B.S. look and listen to the improvement he can make in your components. You will be glad you did.

 

[amirm]

First, welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.

The very first thing we noticed was how much improved the video was, now granted we are using wireworlds very best silver HDMI cables but even with run of the mill cables, the richness of the picture and the depth of the blacks will blow you away.

Let me ask you this. Do you think there is anything David can do to your notebook computer to make the pictures you have on it look brighter and better? How about the text files in your word documents sharper?

 

[welwynnick]

And outside as well. David is correct that RFI is indeed a key part of solving the sound quality problem, this is something that I am particularly playing with at the moment. When you get a system to a certain state of performance it becomes remarkably easy to hear the impact of a single mobile or cell phone being on or off (unless it's Jack's! ), so work definitely needs to be done in this area ...
Frank

I think there's a lot to be said for this - DSPs, DACs and amps seemed to have reached a very high level of performance when tested in the lab, in isolation, but put them in a real environment and the promise isn't realised. I suspect that digital video has a lot to do with this. I've been through a lot of players, processors and amps in the last few years, and some patterns emerge. In general, AV equipment doesn't perform as well as stereo gear, but I don't think its simply down to having more channels - we're just not comparing like with like. Stereo equipment doesn't touch digital video,

So I play stereo audio, by analogue and spdif connection, into AV gear. I found that switching off all the players and the displays helped SQ, and disconnecting them entirely helped even more. That helps to level the playing field with stereo equipment. The mere existence of digital video over HDMI seems to be enough to degrade the SQ of any AV receiver or processor. I can't help being negative about HDMI, but it really does seem like putting audio and video down one cable causes a lot of pollution in the sending and receiving equipment.

As an example, I used to have a Meridian HD621, which takes HDMI inputs and extracts 4 x spdif outputs for Meridian controllers. I suspect there's a lot to be said for this approach - keeping all digital video away from the audio processor. However, the 621 also has an HDMI output that can still carry digital audio. I was playing a few months ago, and cheekily used this to drive an HDMI receiver, wondering if it had better digital audio quality than other HDMI "sources". Perhaps it did, slightly, but I did get a real surprise. When playing a CD, I switched from the HDMI to the spdif output from the 621, and I got the expected improvement in SQ.

However, when I disconnected the HDMI cable completely, it got even better. With HDMI connected - unused but obviously piping digital video into the receiver - I heard a "hashy" sound at the top end. I went backards and forwards several times, and it became quite identifiable and quite unpleasant. Although I was using the 621 the wrong way, and I was only listening to CDs, it made me wonder what digital video must be doing to high definition audio, which only comes hand-in-hand with video.

Its ironic that we tend to isolate audio replay functions in order to reduce interaction
- separate the transport from the DAC,
- separate the power amp from the pre-amp,
- even the power supply from whatever
- all in the name of keeping the signals clean.
Yet now, with HD pre-pros, we are necessarily throwing digital audio and video together - the two signals that should really be kept apart. So I'm convinced that a processor has to keep them apart and avoid interaction within the box.

My 0.02, Nick

 

[JackD201]

When I was setting up my home theater, I was getting the strangest buzzing like alien morse code. It turned out the projector's AC supply was connected to the automation system by mistake. The only connection to the audio chain was via a the HDMi cable from the processor to the projector. The AC line was removed from the system and the buzzing disappeared. Go figure.

Frankie, I always keep my phone well away from my audio equipment. I hate that Tat-tat-tat-ta sound when a message is coming in. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

First, welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.

Let me ask you this. Do you think there is anything David can do to your notebook computer to make the pictures you have on it look brighter and better? How about the text files in your word documents sharper?

Since I've had my MacBook Pro tweaked, my posts on WBF have become much more insightful. No doubt about it.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Frankie, I always keep my phone well away from my audio equipment. I hate that Tat-tat-tat-ta sound when a message is coming in. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

"Frankie" is a big no-no! Mum would be very upset to hear me called that!!

But seriously, that sounds pretty savage sensitivity on the part of your gear there. If it is really that bad I would put some major effort into tracking down where the setup is picking it up; the problems I have dealt with is that the phone just being on, not actively functioning per se, is enough to add a harshness to the SQ, even when some distance away.

Frank

 

[Steve williams]

A little over one year ago I had decided to find a Home theater processor to replace my Proceed AVP2. When I purchased the Proceed I thought it was future proof. Before that I changed equipment like most people change their socks. After some research, I decide on an Onkyo 885 and found a new one for a good price on Audiogon. I received the unit, hooked it up and was very impressed by the vidio portion and it's wide range of features. One of my main reasons for changing was for the new HD audio codecs and the one cable HDMI feature. The stock unit is very good but is very lacking in the quality of it's audio section. After looking around on the internet for a few weeks, I came across an article about the upgrade company and David Schulte. David and I emailed back and forth for a while before I decided to send him my unit for his signature upgrade. In the meantime , my best friend sold his B&K processor and purchased an 885 also. We both sent our 885's to Dave at the same time for upgrade. I will admit that Dave is very cautious about his procedures. I tried everything to get Photos, a list of parts, anything on the upgrade. I guess that if I were in his shoes with all of the negative crap he has to put up with, I would be cautious too. FYI, Every once in a while Dave will send me few photos of the new stuff he is working on. I guess I earned his trust. After about three weeks our units arrived back and were back into our systems within just a few days. The very first thing we noticed was how much improved the video was, now granted we are using wireworlds very best silver HDMI cables but even with run of the mill cables, the richness of the picture and the depth of the blacks will blow you away. It took a little while for the audio to come around but after it did I would put it up against the best out there. This last june I had a chance to buy a Halcro processor for a very good price. I had the unit on loan for two weeks in my system and finally declined the offer because in my opinion the Moddified Onkyo is just as good. I like the Onkyo so well that I recently Purchased an almost new 5507 and sent my 885 back to David for his additional upgrades. My 885 is finished now and on it's way home. As soon as it arrives, I will be sending my 5507 to him to work his magic on. I am allready looking forward to the completion of my 5507 and my 885 will be going to my Son for the start of his new system. I am a firm believer in good quality Mod's and upgrades to good equipment and over the last few years I find myself doing that more often than purchasing new. My buddy and I are planning to send our OPPO 93's to Dave in the very near future, We both feel that compared the the money we have spent on new equipment or cables, the money we spent having Dave upgrade our Processors was better spent. My advise is not to listen to the negative B.S. look and listen to the improvement he can make in your components. You will be glad you did.

As Amir said welcome to the forum. With this being your first post I am sure it is fair to say that the preceding was a solicited post from none other than David S himself

Great to hear your testimonials as we have with at least several other members whose testimonials have appeared as first posts in this thread as well. One cannot ever deny a happy camper. What we at WBF are saying is "caveat emptor"

As Amir has pointed out many times here you cannot improve the video quality by HDMI so doesn't it seem like so much voodoo that all of these testimonials come from people who have not seen these processors working side by side, one modded and a similar one unmodded. How can you espouse how much more improved your unit was? Simple recollection, or what

 

[Kal Rubinson]

We both sent our 885's to Dave at the same time for upgrade.

Perfect opportunity for a valid comparison is missed.

 

[mrssrs69]

I guess from the last two posts that no-one is reading my post completely. As I said previuosly, I have purchased an almost new 5507. That is a much newer version of the 885 and supposedly a better one. I had the unit for a week before sending the 885 back to David and did some comparison listening as well as vewing several Blurays on both Processors. The 885 definently wins hands down. I set all of the settings on both units exactly the same to start with and the player and TV are connected via HDMI. Not only is the audio much better on the 885, the video has a completely better look. These are the reasons I am sending the 5507 back to dave as soon as I receive my 885 back. I don't claim to know what he does to the units to improve them and also I am not an engineer of any kind. But i do know what I can see and hear, there is clearly a big difference in the performance of the units after his upgrades, whatever they are. Even my wife could see the difference between the Video's and she could care less.

 

[Steve williams]

As Kal said, you missed a golden opportunity to do your own test on the same unit rather than sending them both back

 

[RUR]

.... with all of the negative crap he has to put up with...My advise is not to listen to the negative B.S....

With respect, asking for objective evidence of improvement isn't what I'd call "negative B.S.", Ron.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I guess from the last two posts that no-one is reading my post completely.

Wrong but I am guessing from your two posts that you do not appreciate the logic of a scientifically appropriate comparison test.

 

[Steve williams]

Wrong but I am guessing from your two posts that you do not appreciate the logic of a scientifically appropriate comparison test.

Kal

IMO therein lies the tragic flaw for all of these people with their "solicited" endorsements for TUC

 

[naturephoto1]

Kal

IMO therein lies the tragic flaw for all of these people with their "solicited" endorsements for TUC

I took a lot of flack on AVS inititally when I reported my observations of the performance of my upgraded Onkyo 885 compared to many much more expensive Preamps and not to a stock 885. As it turns out, and much later, I did make comparisons in performance of my upgraded 885 to a stock 885 in my system in my old home with my rebuilt Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers as my speakers. At the time I had offered others from the Blu-ray.com to participate in the testing but I had no takers. The two units were set up side by side in my rack and I did all of the testing myself without any assistance and it was not a blind test so many of you may say that the testing was not valid. It took time and it was difficult to move the cabling and connections to and from the Pre/Pros and the sources and amps. I reported these observations in a thread on Blu-ray.com.

Each Onkyo used identical Power Cords, tweaks, etc. I will say that both the stock and the upgraded units did improve their performance with burn-in.

As to the sound, there is no question that the 2 units did sound different. The upgraded Onkyo 885 was definitely more open sounding with better more controlled bass, had better imaging, better soundstage, clarity, dynamics (both micro and macro), better focus, more detail, more lively, more emotional, much more natural and relaxed performance, smoother, more real sounding (voices and instruments), more "bell-like" qualities, blacker background, etc. The sound of the upgraded unit was just more involving and much more enjoyable. The stock unit sounded fairly good, with fairly good imaging, soundstage, and bass. It did not sound nearly as musical and was trumped by the upgraded unit in every area. The upgraded unit sounded much more refined than the stock unit, just as would be expected from an expensive Preamp or Pre/Pro. In my estimation, the improved performance of the upgraded Onkyo PR-SC885 would be considered a bargain and I have compared the early upgrade of this unit versus some very expensive Preamps and thought that it sounded better.

Since that comparison, my Onkyo 885 has gone through many additional upgrades further improving the performance of my unit.

Additionally, and as a result of my findings Nick made quite a number of comparisons in the performance of his upgraded versus a stock 885 that he reported on on a number of websites. His testing was performed in his home in the UK.

Rich

 

[amirm]

Rich, I would be delighted to take you up on video side-by-side comparisons . Here is the thing about video: there is ONLY ONE RIGHT ANSWER! There, first time in my life I have typed everything in capital letters .

Unlike audio, we can freeze the video and see if it complies with a standard. There is no need then to rely on subjective evaluation. We can put up an image, use a spectrometer and measure brightness, color, etc. As I noted above, there can only be one answer. So either your old machine was broken or the new if you are perceiving differences in digital video. I realize you don't have the necessary instrumentation but any ISF tech should have it. And should we be in the same place, I can bring my Minolta CS-200.

 

[naturephoto1]

Rich, I would be delighted to take you up on video side-by-side comparisons . Here is the thing about video: there is ONLY ONE RIGHT ANSWER! There, first time in my life I have typed everything in capital letters .

Unlike audio, we can freeze the video and see if it complies with a standard. There is no need then to rely on subjective evaluation. We can put up an image, use a spectrometer and measure brightness, color, etc. As I noted above, there can only be one answer. So either your old machine was broken or the new if you are perceiving differences in digital video. I realize you don't have the necessary instrumentation but any ISF tech should have it. And should we be in the same place, I can bring my Minolta CS-200.

Hi Amir,

I have never attempted to make any video performance comparisons of the units, only the audio. But, I will say that the unit in its upgraded form is exceptionally sharp. However, I can not say without question that the video performance is better. I suspect that I am seeing or percieing the image as sharper than it used to be. This may however may have to do with making and relying on my Pioneer Elite Pro-111 making all of the fine adjustments automatically as I have the TV set.

It would make for an interesting session and testing. But, you are in Washington State and I am in eastern PA. Possibly something could be done in the future.

Rich

 

[audioguy]

I am sure it is fair to say that the preceding was a solicited post from none other than David S himself

When I read his post earlier today, I was going to respond: "This Advertisement has been brought to you by The Upgrade Company" but chose not to.

Without getting into the whole subjective/objective urinating contest, the only way the non-believers (apparently there are lots of them/us) are going to be satisfied is a blind and side by side comparison.

EVERYONE wants their new purchase/upgrade to sound "better" so they already have built-in and subconscious bias.

There used to be a guy who posted on AVS (and I never knew if he was pulling our collective legs) who had all kinds of crap (aluminum foil, etc) stuck on and in his components and posted photos of them. When I looked at some of the earlier posted photos of the mods of TUC, that is what I was reminded of.