The Worlds Best Listening Room?

Fellow WBF members, I found this video earlier today outlining the building and design of the Elbphilharmoni concert hall in Hamburg. I was blown away by the architecture, yet more importantly, the painstaking efforts to create the world's most awesome listening room.

We often debate on WBF what constitutes the most faithful reproduction of sound. Undoubtedly, the room is our most significant component. The Elphilharmoni is a space I hope to experience someday soon for the sheer joy of it but also to better inform my work in the field.

It's a YouTube, so please skip the commercial

 

It is interesting that the more recent 'grand concept' halls undergo quite a bit of tweaking after the fact... not unlike the 'expert' custom crafted listening rooms of audiophiles that as often as not go over like a lead balloon and wind up barely recognizable after subsequent years of tweakish alterations to suit.

I can't find file photos of Disney when new, but it looks like it has changed a bit from conception.

So much for the cults of expertise.

"I don't know how it will actually sound after the billion spent, but at least I can promise you it will LOOK impressive!"

 

The narrative that old halls are great and new halls are rubbish is not really the case .. I would bet that there is a much higher percentage of "good " halls these days due to the far better knowledge of acoustics.
One of the great contributors to this knowledge is Tapio Lokki and his colleagues ... This paper relates to the 2 hall types under discussion and,
in my view, nails it !

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333314921_Architectural_Features_That_Make_Music_Bloom_in_Concert_Halls

These buildings are the cathedrals of our time and there are many egos and preconceptions to deal with .. not a simple task

 

A Notoriously Jinxed Concert Hall Is Reborn, Again​

David Geffen Hall, the New York Philharmonic’s Lincoln Center home, is reopening after a $550 million renovation aimed at breaking its acoustic curse — and adding a dash of glamour.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/29/arts/music/david-geffen-hall-reopening-lincoln-center.html

"It was the first theater to open at Lincoln Center, in September 1962. Patrons, dressed to the nines, tiptoed through still-wet concrete...

That first evening, patrons — Jackie Kennedy, Nelson Rockefeller, Dean Rusk and Adlai Stevenson among them — mounted escalators to an auditorium that was a symphony in deep blue and gold, with swooping balconies. Leonard Bernstein, classical music’s answer to the Beatles, strode onstage. The New York Philharmonic exploded with the first exultant notes of “Gloria” from Beethoven’s “Missa Solemnis.”

And everyone with ears instantly realized that the new hall was a disaster.

Musicians couldn’t hear each other. Listeners couldn’t hear the violas and cellos. Trumpets, trombones and clarinets echoed like yodelers in the Alps. Bernstein later described an “acoustical-psychological” effect: in such an extremely big, long hall, where nearly a third of the audience was more than 100 feet from the stage, the orchestra, which doesn’t use amplification, sounded distant because it appeared as if “through the wrong end of a telescope.”

“Tear the place down and start over again,” was George Szell’s verdict after conducting the Cleveland Orchestra there.

The new design team included Gary McCluskie of the Toronto-based firm Diamond Schmitt Architects; Joshua Dachs, the veteran theater consultant, and the architects Tod Williams and Billie Tsien...The team also included the acoustician Paul Scarbrough, of the firm Akustiks. In past iterations of the building, acousticians always played second fiddle to architects. It says a lot about Geffen’s priorities that Akustiks got to set the specifications for the hall, recommended the layout and signed off on everything."

 

"It says a lot about Geffen’s priorities that Akustiks got to set the specifications for the hall, recommended the layout and signed off on everything"


Clearly a good approach .. the design team collaborating always produces the best results.. although I did see in the press that the acoustic engineers stated they measured all the decorative features on famous shoebox halls to repeat the acoustic effect .. hope they used some modern theory as well .. must be opening soon

 

One of the great contributors to this knowledge is Tapio Lokki and his colleagues ... This paper relates to the 2 hall types under discussion and, in my view, nails it !

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333314921_Architectural_Features_That_Make_Music_Bloom_in_Concert_Halls

Thanks for the link to an interesting paper. There is a tension between the visual and the acoustic for the audience. In many recent halls, the balance has tipped in favor of the visual. Lots of seats with good views but with compromised acoustics.

 

"Bruckner's Eighth comes across as a frontal acoustic assault. Quiet works better. A comparative journey through European concert halls, accompanied by experts like Kent Nagano. [...] " (post #2)

[please forgive my poor English]

@Walter66,
You seem to have quoted that review. May we know the source? (I cannot find it back on the Web: search).
That review was very unflattering for the Elbphilharmonie.
I will make a 600Km trip to attend a concert there the 1st of May 2024 (Wagner, Walküre, on period instruments, Kent Nagano conductor).

The husband of my cousin once played in the Elbphilharmonie (first violin) one or two years ago. Though I heard my cousin this afternoon, she did not spontaneously mentioned acoustical issues in the hall (she is a violin teacher, and attended the rehearsal of the orchestra in the concert hall). But I admit I did not asked her explicitly either (we talked about Hamburg, as a city: how much days should I stay, etc).

If initial issues were real, did they fix them in the meantime, by fine-tuning the hall? Are those "youthful illnesses" a thing of the past ?

---

Additionally,
Is this thread about concert halls, or listening rooms? (I do not understand the title - "The Worlds Best Listening Room?" - and then the OP post about the Elbphilharmonie. Should the title be updated?
I think there are already other nice threads about listening rooms, elsewhere on WBF.
(sure, a concert hall can be considered as a "listening room" to some extend, but I have been mislead by the title...)

 

The title created was intended as a play on words. Most folks got this once they saw the first post so no, I don't think the title is misleading. Audio enthusiasts can benefit greatly by listening to acoustic music in real space, whether small works or large. Sharing which halls are worth the trip is valuable and IMO should be a priority to anyone engaging in a serious discussion of electronically reproduced sound at home. That said, it's all a personal journey and expression of ones likes, dislikes and priorities and that is in part where the fun lies. There are no absolute truths!

 

...

Undoubtedly, the room is our most significant component....

Untrue as I've yet to encounter any sonic proof of such a statement nor do I think it's possible to prove. Why? Because once any room is complete, it will still sound inferior until speakers are placed optimally within the room.

On the other hand, if you were to say something like ...

The quality of the acoustic coupling or interface between speaker AND room is one of the more critical elements to a playback config.

That I would say is undoubtedly true. But aside from having a somewhat reasonably dimensioned and minimally furnished room without aftermarket acoustic treatments, the room all by its lonesome makes little or even no never mind.

 

That is a listening room at Shenzhen/ China.
Another superb one.
View attachment 98394

Come on!

Is this replica of Mike's room?

 

I used to use the third floor listening room as tidy as this one.

But now the current systems set up on the second floor may look messy with tangled cablrs although it sounds much more dynamic with realistic soundstage.

I may move Lansche 4.1 back to the third floor or get new speaker set up there.

 

As far as I’m concerned, the world’s best listening room is my room (or rather the room
In which I’m currently listening to music, and since I have 5 vastly different systems with very different components, the sound varies a lot).

As you get older, you get a bit wiser, and one of the many things you learn is that it is absolutely meaningless to certify something as “best”. Is there a “best” composer? A “best” artist? A “best “ singer ? A “best” wine? Indulging in such speculations is an absolute waste of time, IMHO.

Instead, one should develop an appreciation for different points of view, different perspectives, whether it in the choice of a music hall, a listening room, a loudspeaker, a wine or a composer. Can one compare Mozart to Stravinsky? Picasso to da Vinci? The question is meaningless.

I’m fortunate to own a house in the Bay Area large enough to accommodate multiple systems. My loudspeakers range from a 60-year-old Quad ESL to a one year old Klipsch La Scala to several dynamic loudspeakers. Listening rooms vary in size from over 6000 cu ft to diminutive. My ESLs I listen to in the near field about 5-6 ft away and get enveloped in their oh so gorgeous sound. My La Scalas, on which I’m listening right now to the majestic sound of John Coltrane playing the blues, are much further away, like 13-14 feet. Horses for courses.

I’ve been fortunate to visit all the major concert halls in Europe and the US and the iconic Sydney Opera House. They all sound as different as cheese and chalk. Heck, even the grungy sounding Barbican in London sounded magnificent as the great Gustavo Dudamel showed when I heard him conduct the magnificent Mahler Fifth with the LA Philharmonic a few years back. As did the maestro Ricardo Muti with the Chicago Symphony orchestra playing Brahms Symphonies 2 and 3 at the Berkeley music hall, a dowdy university performance venue.

Great conductors tune the sound of orchestras to the venues they are playing in, to the orchestras they are conducting, to the music they performing. As do great singers.

So, give up this rather futile quest to label something as “best”. One of the many things I’ve learned over the past 40+ years of listening to great orchestras and hifi systems.

 

As far as I’m concerned, the world’s best listening room is my room (or rather the room
In which I’m currently listening to music, and since I have 5 vastly different systems with very different components, the sound varies a lot).

As you get older, you get a bit wiser, and one of the many things you learn is that it is absolutely meaningless to certify something as “best”. Is there a “best” composer? A “best” artist? A “best “ singer ? A “best” wine? Indulging in such speculations is an absolute waste of time, IMHO.

Instead, one should develop an appreciation for different points of view, different perspectives, whether it in the choice of a music hall, a listening room, a loudspeaker, a wine or a composer. Can one compare Mozart to Stravinsky? Picasso to da Vinci? The question is meaningless.

I’m fortunate to own a house in the Bay Area large enough to accommodate multiple systems. My loudspeakers range from a 60-year-old Quad ESL to a one year old Klipsch La Scala to several dynamic loudspeakers. Listening rooms vary in size from over 6000 cu ft to diminutive. My ESLs I listen to in the near field about 5-6 ft away and get enveloped in their oh so gorgeous sound. My La Scalas, on which I’m listening right now to the majestic sound of John Coltrane playing the blues, are much further away, like 13-14 feet. Horses for courses.

I’ve been fortunate to visit all the major concert halls in Europe and the US and the iconic Sydney Opera House. They all sound as different as cheese and chalk. Heck, even the grungy sounding Barbican in London sounded magnificent as the great Gustavo Dudamel showed when I heard him conduct the magnificent Mahler Fifth with the LA Philharmonic a few years back. As did the maestro Ricardo Muti with the Chicago Symphony orchestra playing Brahms Symphonies 2 and 3 at the Berkeley music hall, a dowdy university performance venue.

Great conductors tune the sound of orchestras to the venues they are playing in, to the orchestras they are conducting, to the music they performing. As do great singers.

So, give up this rather futile quest to label something as “best”. One of the many things I’ve learned over the past 40+ years of listening to great orchestras and hifi systems.

I have a lot of fond memory of attending concerts in Bay area in 80's.

Pinkas Zuckerman playing double concerto with San Francisco Symphony.

Nathan Milstein solo recital iat UC Berkeley symphony hall on 1982.

He was 78 years old then.

Beaux Arts trio playing Dumky trio at UB Berkeley music department hall with around 600 seats.

Where do you live in Bay Area?

 

In my opinion, two of the theaters and/or concert halls where an enthusiast must go at least once in their life are the "Colon" theater in Buenos Aires and the one located in my beautiful city of Palermo, the "Massimo" theater. both with wonderful acoustics. (curiosity. the Teatro Massimo is the one where “The Godfather III” is set) I would like to hear one of your wonderful systems placed in the center of the proscenium of one of these theatres. How to say the sacred and the profane, the virgin and the holy water… why not Mike Lavigne's

 

In my opinion, two of the theaters and/or concert halls where an enthusiast must go at least once in their life are the "Colon" theater in Buenos Aires and the one located in my beautiful city of Palermo, the "Massimo" theater. both with wonderful acoustics. (curiosity. the Teatro Massimo is the one where “The Godfather III” is set) I would like to hear one of your wonderful systems placed in the center of the proscenium of one of these theatres. How to say the sacred and the profane, the virgin and the holy water… why not Mike Lavigne'sView attachment 126477View attachment 126478View attachment 126479View attachment 126480View attachment 126481

Nice to have a theatre named after you
It is a beauty .. interestingly the flat floor removes " seat dip" that you get with tiered seating and the walls between the boxes reduce early side wall reflections and the lovely high ceiling reduce ceiling reflections so it ticks a lot of boxes.
I will definitely try and get there .. I have only been to LA Scala in Italy

Cheers
Phil