Thorens & Goldmund Reference Turntables - European Expressions of the Art of Beyond

[Anerol]

Talking of super turntables from a European perspective you can’t ignore Transrotor. These are some pictures of my Transrotor Quintessence. It was designed a bit later than the Thorens Reference. Not sure at all if it was ever exported to the US. Has anyone seen one on your side of the pond?

Simpler than that is not possible. No electronics that can fail. Just a power supply and Pabst Aussenläufer Motors and speed adjustment is done by pushing the motor housing closer or further away from the platter. The secret of the design though is that every element stands on its own feet. No tension between any of the elements of the table.

Provides for an extremely relaxed but precise sound.

 

[Lagonda]

Beautiful TT, Tranrotor do love those multi motor setups ! Is it sitting on the floor ?

 

[jespera]

David,

a gentleman called Pierre Lurne was involved with the development and production of some of the
goldmund tables. He later marketed his own tonearms and turntables under the names Lurne and
Audiomeca. Superficially, they look a lot like the goldmunds. How do you rate these products?

Jesper

 

[Anerol]

Beautiful TT, Tranrotor do love those multi motor setups ! Is it sitting on the floor ?

Sorry but YES. These are the actual pictures from the guy who sold it to me. This table is a giant and does not fit naturally on any standard rack. I use the table on the top shelf o& my rack but it eats up the whole space you need normally for two turntables.

 

[Lagonda]

Sorry but YES. These are the actual pictures from the guy who sold it to me. This table is a giant and does not fit naturally on any standard rack. I use the table on the top shelf o& my rack but it eats up the whole space you need normally for two turntables.

Transrotors are often works of art as much as functional TT’s How does that beauty sound ?

 

[ddk]

I have a question to the Thorens Reference owners among you. Did you ever try a hard mat on this table while replacing the felt mat it comes with? What was your experienc?

I have tried a hard graphite mat and a copper mat with with mine mostly because I find the armboards too high in respect to platter height and my tonearms bottom out with some cartridges. In both instances the sound firmed up specially in the bass but I still preferred to the overall sound with the felt mat. I actually love the Reference's sounds, it's somewhat colored when compared to something like the AS2000 but it has a mesmerizing beauty not found in excellent but ordinary turntables, hence the Beyond title.

Talking of super turntables from a European perspective you can’t ignore Transrotor. These are some pictures of my Transrotor Quintessence. It was designed a bit later than the Thorens Reference. Not sure at all if it was ever exported to the US. Has anyone seen one on your side of the pond?

Simpler than that is not possible. No electronics that can fail. Just a power supply and Pabst Aussenläufer Motors and speed adjustment is done by pushing the motor housing closer or further away from the platter. The secret of the design though is that every element stands on its own feet. No tension between any of the elements of the table.

Provides for an extremely relaxed but precise sound.

I owned a Transrotor in the past and have clients who own/owned them too, sorry to be harsh and I hope that you don't take offense but IMO they're middle of the road quality at best and have nothing to do with turntables in the Beyond category here. The only reason there's not even a simple frequency controller with this table is because Transrotor doesn't know how to build one to sync the motors. Adjusting speed by tightening up the belt, and in this case multiple belts, is the most primitive and inconsistent way a turntable manufacturer can come up with to adjust speed. There are electronic speed controllers going back to the 60's and still working today, they wont fail if built right. Tightening and loosening of the belt also affects the sound quality!

david

 

[ddk]

David,

a gentleman called Pierre Lurne was involved with the development and production of some of the
goldmund tables. He later marketed his own tonearms and turntables under the names Lurne and
Audiomeca. Superficially, they look a lot like the goldmunds. How do you rate these products?

Jesper

The Audio Meca J1 was pretty much a slightly updated Goldmund Studio and it sounded pretty much the same, never saw the Romance but doesn't look like much in the pictures.

david

 

[jespera]

The Audio Meca J1 was pretty much a slightly updated Goldmund Studio and it sounded pretty much the same, never saw the Romance but doesn't look like much in the pictures.

david

The j1 was a belt drive though. I used to own one. It was eaten by a lenco. But thats a story for another thread.

Jesper

 

[Lagonda]

The j1 was a belt drive though. I used to own one. It was eaten by a lenco. But thats a story for another thread.

Jesper

Jesper you need to keep your Lencos on a leash, apparently

 

[jdza]

I have a question to the Thorens Reference owners among you. Did you ever try a hard mat on this table while replacing the felt mat it comes with? What was your experienc?

Like DDK I found the armpods too high for proper VTA setting on some of my my preferred arms. Using lower profile pods doesn't help as the arms still hit the top of the table itself. Not wishing to mess with the sound of the turntable too much I use the thick Achromat on top of the felt. The reasoning behind this being to have essentially a thicker record.Seems to work for me. The arms that will fit i.e. EMT 997 and Reed 3P just have to live with that.

Thorens seems to have worked very hard to remove any hint of metal sound from the platter. To me,introducing a metal mat seems contrary to the original design aims. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Anerol]

I have tried a hard graphite mat and a copper mat with with mine mostly because I find the armboards too high in respect to platter height and my tonearms bottom out with some cartridges. In both instances the sound firmed up specially in the bass but I still preferred to the overall sound with the felt mat. I actually love the Reference's sounds, it's somewhat colored when compared to something like the AS2000 but it has a mesmerizing beauty not found in excellent but ordinary turntables, hence the Beyond title.

Let me start by saying that I am very pleased to be able to exchange with other owners of this table. Hard to find people who own them and are really interested in them.

I agree with the observation that the armboards are sometimes too low to properly install a tonearm. I have this problem with a Fidelity Research 64-S at present. And I hear your comments on felt mat against hard mat. Did you ever try to double the felt mat? Wouldn’t that get you away with both problems. Maintaining the sound and having enough headroom?

I owned a Transrotor in the past and have clients who own/owned them too, sorry to be harsh and I hope that you don't take offense but IMO they're middle of the road quality at best and have nothing to do with turntables in the Beyond category here. The only reason there's not even a simple frequency controller with this table is because Transrotor doesn't know how to build one to sync the motors. Adjusting speed by tightening up the belt, and in this case multiple belts, is the most primitive and inconsistent way a turntable manufacturer can come up with to adjust speed. There are electronic speed controllers going back to the 60's and still working today, they wont fail if built right. Tightening and loosening of the belt also affects the sound quality!

david

No hard feelings on the Transrotor. I own two. The Iron which I redid for two tonearms 9 and 12 inches. And I own the Quintessence. It doesn’t bother me, that the speed adjustment isn’t electronically regulated and adjustable. Once it is done it is done.

The sound of a table is a difficult thing. I don’t have identical arms and cartridges for two tables. Furthermore, you might argue that each table has a preferred combination which you have to find first and than compare the two. Anyway, I take your comment on board and listen carefully again.

 

[ddk]

No hard feelings on the Transrotor. I own two. The Iron which I redid for two tonearms 9 and 12 inches. And I own the Quintessence. It doesn’t bother me, that the speed adjustment isn’t electronically regulated and adjustable. Once it is done it is done.

The sound of a table is a difficult thing. I don’t have identical arms and cartridges for two tables. Furthermore, you might argue that each table has a preferred combination which you have to find first and than compare the two. Anyway, I take your comment on board and listen carefully again.

Hi Anerol,
I have no such argument, preferred combination is personal. IME you can pretty much tell the character of a real high end turntable with any decent tonearm and cartridge that one is familiar with.

david

 

[silviajulieta]

Direct Drives really don't qualify in this category, they're very competent but only basic machines. The high end Micros and these tables are a lot more than that

Dear friend: a heavy/huge DD turntable disqualification and I respect that opinion even that I can't agree with: Look in those old times Japanese TT designs was full of BD TTs that were on sale by price for one kg. and that was how the final sale price came.

The first heavy weigth ( with no true facts/foundations for but in reality the other way around. ) TT was the Thorens Reference in 1980 followed by Micro en 1922 and one year latter American Sound ( japanese. ) AS-1000Xthat set you back 1.2 KK Yens but the Micro SZ ( this perhaps the more beautiful BD/DD TT ever. ) came that same year for 1.7KK Yens an all those were $$$ out beated by the Final Paruthenon with 2.7KK Yens.

I own or owned the Micro 5000/8000 and listened the Goldmund Reference, EMT, Final.

Micro makes a big mistake shared by AS and that was that the four arm mount are a top the all metal TT ( all TT. ) foots where all kind of vibrations/resonances and the like must pass through contaminaiting directly all the tonearms and degrading in big way the cartridge signal quality performance no matters what. Other issue with Micro was its platter that just rings as a bell, the best Micro TT characteristic design is the TT bearing because the motor came from Matushita group Panasonic/Technics enterprise.

The Final has a design characterisitc that outperformed all the other heavy weigth TT and that characteristic was an is its kind of motor/power supply that develops its own electrical signal and this was an is a serious achievement in those old times and extremely important for all those vintage BD TTs: the Final is immune to any electrical changes.

Specs on those Japanece BD TT really basic and even that all are heavy weigth the designers forgotten that a heavy mass loading in movement develops internal vibrations as more heavy as higher that kind of distortions. Yes, those heavy weigth BD designs use the weigth in the platters to take advantage of the mass inertia trying to mantain its spind speed stability even that it's not the best way to achieve that stability and accuracy.


If we take a look to the best Japanese vintage DD designs any one of them beats easy any of the BD TTs. Way different in design not heavy weigth champions not accepting four tonearms and not that impressive looking of any BD with four tonearm mounted on it where the eyes and jaws of your friends just been wide open and jaws dropped in the floor. This kind of look and weigth is what japanese people die for and they almost do not care about anything else because there is not much to ask to those BD TTs.

Here the DD coreless motor by Kenwood: http://www.thevintageknob.org/kenwood-L-07D.html

here the famous Technics SP10MK3: http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SP-10MK3.html ( its today anniversary brother comes with a coreless motor that the MK3 does not shared with. )

I love Denon: http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-100.html

Yamaha: http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000.html and top of the line: http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000x.html

btw, Yamaha platters came from MS. The DD motors are coreless too.

Specs of all DD unit are outstanding and speaks by it self. Yes, no one is so impressive as the multi-tonearms havy weigth BD TTs. DD in the light weigth side and with only one tonearm capacity: not enough for the japanese people or today audiophiles but a TT is more than a " pretty face " and the " ugly " ones as those vintage DDs are way better overall quality performers than their BD " camarades " . Well the today Wave Kinetics is a good example of a DD " pretty face " with options for more than one tonearm as the Technics coreless today anniversary model and all DD way less expensive than those " pretty face " BD ones.

Some BD advocates do not like the bi-directional servos in the DD TT but the motors in the recording cutting machines comes by Technics and are DD units.

Anyway and even that I own too BD and DD I know that DD are better but BD works fine too. What is out of sense are the very high prices of yesterday or today BD TTs where exist almost not a rocket science/engeneering levels and indeed the BD designs ( any ) is really simple, DD is more complicated an a challenge to any designer and are way inexpensive against the BD units that for me can't justify 250K-300K dollars or more: where are hidden all that money? they sale the simple steel at higher price that true and shiny gold metal. ! ! Why ? is the question because I can't see true facts to justify its existence.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.

 

[theophile]

Hello Raul.

 

[ddk]

Dear friend: a heavy/huge DD turntable disqualification and I respect that opinion even that I can't agree with: Look in those old times Japanese TT designs was full of BD TTs that were on sale by price for one kg. and that was how the final sale price came.

The first heavy weigth ( with no true facts/foundations for but in reality the other way around. ) TT was the Thorens Reference in 1980 followed by Micro en 1922 and one year latter American Sound ( japanese. ) AS-1000Xthat set you back 1.2 KK Yens but the Micro SZ ( this perhaps the more beautiful BD/DD TT ever. ) came that same year for 1.7KK Yens an all those were $$$ out beated by the Final Paruthenon with 2.7KK Yens.

I own or owned the Micro 5000/8000 and listened the Goldmund Reference, EMT, Final.

Micro makes a big mistake shared by AS and that was that the four arm mount are a top the all metal TT ( all TT. ) foots where all kind of vibrations/resonances and the like must pass through contaminaiting directly all the tonearms and degrading in big way the cartridge signal quality performance no matters what. Other issue with Micro was its platter that just rings as a bell, the best Micro TT characteristic design is the TT bearing because the motor came from Matushita group Panasonic/Technics enterprise.

The Final has a design characterisitc that outperformed all the other heavy weigth TT and that characteristic was an is its kind of motor/power supply that develops its own electrical signal and this was an is a serious achievement in those old times and extremely important for all those vintage BD TTs: the Final is immune to any electrical changes.

Specs on those Japanece BD TT really basic and even that all are heavy weigth the designers forgotten that a heavy mass loading in movement develops internal vibrations as more heavy as higher that kind of distortions. Yes, those heavy weigth BD designs use the weigth in the platters to take advantage of the mass inertia trying to mantain its spind speed stability even that it's not the best way to achieve that stability and accuracy.


If we take a look to the best Japanese vintage DD designs any one of them beats easy any of the BD TTs. Way different in design not heavy weigth champions not accepting four tonearms and not that impressive looking of any BD with four tonearm mounted on it where the eyes and jaws of your friends just been wide open and jaws dropped in the floor. This kind of look and weigth is what japanese people die for and they almost do not care about anything else because there is not much to ask to those BD TTs.

Here the DD coreless motor by Kenwood: http://www.thevintageknob.org/kenwood-L-07D.html

here the famous Technics SP10MK3: http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SP-10MK3.html ( its today anniversary brother comes with a coreless motor that the MK3 does not shared with. )

I love Denon: http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-100.html

Yamaha: http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000.html and top of the line: http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000x.html

btw, Yamaha platters came from MS. The DD motors are coreless too.

Specs of all DD unit are outstanding and speaks by it self. Yes, no one is so impressive as the multi-tonearms havy weigth BD TTs. DD in the light weigth side and with only one tonearm capacity: not enough for the japanese people or today audiophiles but a TT is more than a " pretty face " and the " ugly " ones as those vintage DDs are way better overall quality performers than their BD " camarades " . Well the today Wave Kinetics is a good example of a DD " pretty face " with options for more than one tonearm as the Technics coreless today anniversary model and all DD way less expensive than those " pretty face " BD ones.

Some BD advocates do not like the bi-directional servos in the DD TT but the motors in the recording cutting machines comes by Technics and are DD units.

Anyway and even that I own too BD and DD I know that DD are better but BD works fine too. What is out of sense are the very high prices of yesterday or today BD TTs where exist almost not a rocket science/engeneering levels and indeed the BD designs ( any ) is really simple, DD is more complicated an a challenge to any designer and are way inexpensive against the BD units that for me can't justify 250K-300K dollars or more: where are hidden all that money? they sale the simple steel at higher price that true and shiny gold metal. ! ! Why ? is the question because I can't see true facts to justify its existence.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.

Raul, you're entitled to your opinion but while you've heard and read vintage knob brochures of some of these turntables I own/owned them all and as a dealer in the past sold many of them including DP-100, all versions of Technics SP10, many of the Yamahas and the Victors too. I was the Final Lab distributor too so I know all their models very well. That's what I base my opinions on, not brochures, third hand information and some specs.

david

 

[silviajulieta]

read vintage knob brochures of some of these turntables

Dear friend: I listened in very well know systems and at least one in my system and owned Technics and MS, I knew and know about not for brochures. I never heard the Thorens for example.

In the other side I'm not questioning your first hand experiences about but not so deep as you I have too first hand experiences.

Rergards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

 

[ddk]

Dear friend: I listened in very well know systems and at least one in my system and owned Technics and MS, I knew and know about not for brochures. I never heard the Thorens for example.

In the other side I'm not questioning your first hand experiences about but not so deep as you I have too first hand experiences.

Rergards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

You’ve had the same discussions over and a over and over on audiogon for years I’m aware of your position and like I said before you’re entitled to your opinions.
david

 

[silviajulieta]

you’re entitled to your opinions.

Dear friend: not exactly, I'm always willing to learn this is my attitude always but how can I learn with out facts behind some audio subjects? I can learn by first hand experiences or from other gentlemans with facts, that's all.

Several human beens just are not willing to learn, so they are " entitled ". You can be sure I'm not, maybe you are entitled I don't know for sure.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.

 

[silviajulieta]

Hello

Hi: I love your Yamaha and I can see you own a SimsAudio phono stage, good and congratulations by your choices.

Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

same discussions over and a over and over on audiogon for years

Dear friend: Weird that you said that and I will explain why " weird ". Btw, I did not knew that you read Agon, I just be aware from you in the last 2-3 weeks that I started to post in this forum.

Ok, years ago you posted " Vintage horn designs is where my heart is at, haven't heard anything even close to their speed, dynamics and natural ease. "
I'm with you about speed but not exactly to your other both adjectives. Before that what you really like were planar speakers ( even if different designs. ) as Sound Labs that till today I really like it. Latter on you owned the Apogee that were really good too.

Everything to this " moment " almost ok. Then in those years posted:

"" until I met Vladimir Lamm 16 years ago. "" and that statement was 5 years ago and today you follow "entitled " with Lamm with no serious foundation that can honor your system targets MUSIC/sound reproduction that you stated in 2015 but I respect what you like.

In that same year ( 2015 ) posted:

" I find the constant adjustment and intrusion of the servo very intrusive and unnatural, hence why I don't have any DD tables. The servo's intrusion is most apparent in the lower frequencies that I find essential. "

the only part of that statement that I'm in agreement with you is about the importance of low frequency range in a room/system, as a fact and till this ( 2005 ) I'm " entiltled " with that critical issue:


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058


but in 2015 additionally you posted in reference to a question on the Denon DP-100:


" dp100: it would the only DD that I know that belongs in this group " and I wonder how is that if you are against the servos and that DD TT has a servo control and when you talked about " this group " you was refering to all those mainly BD " reference " TTs: the best for you.


And you followed as today " entitled " against servos when posted:

"" The SP-1000 mk3 is a superior built and engineered product than the other two. Sound is very detail but a little cooler (not wrong) than the other two, specially compared to the Garrard. What I can't get past is the Servo Controller unit which is in the DNA of direct drives ""

" little cooler? " since when? because in that thread owners that I know very well and with excellent room/systems posted against that TT cooler word you used and that you posted with out founded true any fact.

You just followed " entitled " against servos in this thread:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/idlers-vs-direct-drive-vs-belt-drive.18869/page-2

where in posts #32/64 even that proved with measurements that what you said about servos belongs only to your imagination because does not exist you said: NO.


But things are " critical " for say the least about your " entitled " against servos because the recording LP cutting machines uses DD non-coreless motors as the Technics Sp-02 on the Neumann or the servo controled ( as the Sp-02 ) Parker motor in the Lyrec lathes. In Scully lathes some gentlemans used the MK3 Technics motor. Altivar was other used motor and obviously its own Neumann one and even Denon.

Btw, in those very old times Neumann came with the 3012 tonearm ( that you are entitled with and that for today quality standards the only true about is that " destroy " the cartridge signal. Other " incredible " thing " about is that some 3012 owners say that the original internal wiring is 2 outstanding ". Makes no sense to me but they like it. ) that latter was changed by the japanese Grace 12" ( that never was in the market for home use/audiophiles ) and latter on Neumann builded its own along a cartridge because in those times one of the cartridges used was Stanton.

So the LPs you listen was recorded with those servos ( not the bidirectional as Denon or JVC and not coreless motors as JVC, Yamaha or Kenwood. ) and even that that kind of " servo intrusion " especially in the low bass range you just can't be aware of it in the BD or idler drive TTs when that " servo intrusion " in case of exist must be appeared any time with any TT spin design, it comes ( according that exist that servo problem. ) rigth from the cutting lathe. So, You can´t be aware of it because just does not exist ( you are not aware of it in BD designs. ) or your romm/system has not really and true high resolution. There are no other alternatives down there.

Measurements and pure common sense means that your " entitled " servo issue is a misunderstood that you posted and post " over and over through the years. Yes and as many of us I'm entitled too to some kind of audio items but always try to give facts/common sense to explain why I like it so much. I think that no one of us are free of that " entitled ". Don't you think?

That's why I said: " it's weird.

In other issue I read in other thread that you like the Technics MM EPC100CMK4 MM cartridge and due that you have very good contacts in Japan try to find out the LOMC 305MK2 by Technics too.

Btw, this is maybe the " best " MM/MI quality performer, try to listen it:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/adc-26-best-pritchard-cartridge-ever-or-best-cartridge-ever




Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.

"