Thunder and Rain

[Bobvin]

Riders on the Storm — a song that resonated deeply in me the first time I heard it, probably on a small, very, very cheap FM radio on my nightstand. I’ve listened many times since then, in better and better systems (even MikeL’s) but sadly for me I’ve never again had that deep emotional response as I did as a punk kid.

Maybe its a good sign, I did a lot of work to heal the dark days of my childhood. There are other songs too that I once resonated with that don’t move me now. Could it be said our musical tastes reflect our emotional evolution and maturity?

 

[Another Johnson]

Riders on the storm tape

It’s very nice, but aside from having a significant treble tilt, I thought the most positive difference between this tape and the original release is in the rendition of the keyboard. This is much better if one can discern differences from a YouTube copy of the commercially distributed tape played back on a computer. The original CD release copy that I have has very poor keyboard attack and sustain in my opinion. I may go digging further, but some of the digital files are much better than the original release. What I love about streaming is that so many versions of things like this are at your fingertips. Qobuz and Amazon Prime offerings overlap a bit, but each has content not offered on the other.

 

[Rob181]

It’s very nice, but aside from having a significant treble tilt, I thought the most positive difference between this tape and the original release is in the rendition of the keyboard. This is much better if one can discern differences from a YouTube copy of the commercially distributed tape played back on a computer. The original CD release copy that I have has very poor keyboard attack and sustain in my opinion. I may go digging further, but some of the digital files are much better than the original release. What I love about streaming is that so many versions of things like this are at your fingertips. Qobuz and Amazon Prime offerings overlap a bit, but each has content not offered on the other.

My assessment as well - the instruments sounded great - the voice lacking in tone - love the song...

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

I’m sure the tape must be really great … but the other versions that I have access to would not generally be dismissed as nondimensional or flat. There is a decent sense of space in the mix for the session. There is sparkle and they convey a sense of both despair and urgency.

The differences I hear from mix to mix are many. But focusing on the thunderstorm, the original release presents a storm that’s “cool”, but not endangering. It sounds like it was added as a layer. It is unconvincing as a part of the session. No real transient snap. No real room shaking rumble. Maybe these are present on the tape.
As you move through the historical sequence of mixes, the thunderstorm tends to become more real, though I would not describe it as real. I’m sure I’ve not heard them all, and I have not heard the tape, but the best Riders on the Storm thunderstorm I’ve heard is the one I mentioned above on Amazon Prime. There is more crack to the lightening and there is more rumble to the thunder in that mix. But it still sounds like the storm is not on top of the session. It still sounds removed.

Its not the crack of the lightning or the rumble of the thunder, its the dimensionality of the storm it sounds like its raining in the room. Any other version I have heard sounds like there is a wall across the front of the room and each musicians sound is coming through a small hole in said wall. On the tape the storm is going on all around you and the band is at the front of the room performing for you.
That is the best description I can put together in words.
I have heard it both at Steves and Mikes and its awe inspiring.

 

[Another Johnson]

Its not the crack of the lightning or the rumble of the thunder, its the dimensionality of the storm it sounds like its raining in the room. Any other version I have heard sounds like there is a wall across the front of the room and each musicians sound is coming through a small hole in said wall. On the tape the storm is going on all around you and the band is at the front of the room performing for you.
That is the best description I can put together in words.
I have heard it both at Steves and Mikes and its awe inspiring.

I agree on the other versions. The storm event is clearly nearby outside, but not closer. The tape must be yet another mix.

 

[Another Johnson]

I had a chance to listen to the 180 gram vinyl release of the 2021 remaster of the original mix yesterday.

It was actually a lot better than the copies of the 1971 mix that I had here.

The storm still presents the thunder away from the mikes (which sound as if they are in a recording studio recording sessions, which in fact they are).

The rain is more prominent than in the original master (the mix is supposedly the same), but it is behind the band outside of the studio.

Since we know that the storm is from another event (not from the recording session itself), layered into the mix, and since ALL of the versions that have been described put the thunder at a distance (without significant crack or rumble), it would appear that a rendition that puts the rain in the room where the band is entertaining the listener would be a less realistic rendition of the original mix.

It just makes me more curious about the tape and the systems where this seeming pleasing trick occurs.

I mentioned before that I was at one time s member of NARAS, and I’ve done comparisons with master tapes. Both Harry Pearson and Harry Weisfeld did (and have written about) comparisons between the best vinyl playback and the master tape in their systems. I don’t know how many times I heard them exclaim “It’s like master tape.”

So … unless there’s a different (seemingly unique) mix on that tape, or unless there’s some room equalization or other electronic trick in play to put the rain “in the room,” this one sort of defies logic. When the YouTube video was shared above, my general reaction was a significant equalization tilt to the treble, and generally better keyboard attack and decay. The 2021 remaster shares that hugely improved keyboard rendition, but it does not exhibit the treble tilt.

 

[Kingrex]

I always wondered what a re-issue really is. Do they take a 2 track master and make a new lacquer. Or do they take the 24 track and sit at a mixing board and dub it to a a 2 track, then make a lacquer.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I always wondered what a re-issue really is. Do they take a 2 track master and make a new lacquer. Or do they take the 24 track and sit at a mixing board and dub it to a a 2 track, then make a lacquer.

there is 're-press' and reissue. lots of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc, etc pressings. it's why the 1st pressings are best.

a reissue is a new mastering, new lacquer cut, and the whole process. this big issue is the source used for the mastering, condition, and provenance. and of course, who is doing it and how motivated and uncompromised they are.

potentially a re-issue can be better than later gen pressings from the original mastering. wide variance for that. with a digital master, in theory you can have unlimited pressings that are equal since you never wear out the master. in theory. it's how the idea of 50k MFSL One Step Thriller pressings indicated a digital master and caused that whole train wreck situation.

typically a re-issue is from a different organization than the original label. the original label and rights holder are not always the same.

re-mixing is less common. but it does happen, especially when the available masters are not in as good a shape as the work parts and the market demand can justify the effort.

 

[Another Johnson]

This thunderstorm discourse piqued my curiosity, so I dug around and found my sealed copy of MFSL-004, The Power and the Majesty.

I bought it new 40+ years ago. Side 1 is a thunderstorm in the High Sierras with rain and brief hail. Side 2 is a set of recordings at various locations along the route of a locomotive.

The storm was recorded quadraphonically on 30 ips half inch tape and then mixed to stereo and mastered using MFSL’s half speed mastering process. It was released in 1978.

As I’d mentioned in an earlier post, record reviewers of the day made fun of people who listened to thunderstorms or locomotives instead of music. I bought it just to have it because it struck me as a novelty.

This afternoon I opened it for the first time, cleaned it on my VPI MW-1, and played it.

On the bright side, it does present the “rain in the room” phenomenon, although not as surrounding rain. The rain is in front of the listener. It has a three dimensional quality, and in the case of the hail, there is vertical definition of the image as the hail bounces off roof, railings, and deck. The only augmentation of the storm by extraneous sound is the presence of a wind chime nearby. The wind was strong enough to excite it in parts of the recording. There is no accompanying musical track.

In the case of Riders on the Storm, the music is the real focus. The storm is literally a sound effect. Riders on the Storm is a far more powerful performance and when I listen to it, I am compelled to follow the music. There may be some psychoacoustics in play. I like the special effect of the storm, especially because it is so well incorporated into the mix. But in the mixes I’ve heard, it just doesn’t dominate the emotional feeling FOR ME. Someone else may cue into the storm more tightly than I do.

That cut referred to as “take 10” among the Amazon files is the most fun because it brings the back story of how the storm got into the mix. Qobuz has a long cut with the “take 10” banter, but they move on and don’t present the file that Amazon includes of the mixed performance.

Incidentally, I do not recommend The Power and the Majesty. After listening to it, I agree with the reviewers who dismissed this sort of material. It shows off technology of the day, but it doesn’t advance any serious musical agenda.

 

[Tuckers]

This is an area I have a lot of experience! I collect nature recordings, anything I can get my hands on. I first listened to nature recordings in the 70s as a high school kid. On vinyl! I have about 100 recordings now. I do actually find them a good test of a system, and are part of my Playlist when I evaluate equipment. On a good system recordings like ocean surf, rain, streams, they really can sound realistic. And it is a very different but valid point of view to add to my understanding of a piece of audio equipment. I listen to them late at night when I am trying to shut my brain off, sometimes when working or when I am feeling particularly stressed.

However, I have never heard a realistic recording of a thunderstorm, they are all pale distant copies. For one, all I have heard do not capture the low bass, most seem to roll off at about 80hz. Part of this is that field microphones that nature recordists generally use, roll off at about that frequency. And the dynamics are super hard to capture. Also, many newer recordings suffer from the same compression/loudness issues music does. Seems many of these recordings are meant to sound good in a massage studio on a boom box played really low. I have a few recordings that are in 24/48, but not higher. And those have potential.

 

[Tuckers]

Here are two recordings on Qobuz of thunderstorms. These both have pretty good examples of thunder and do get down lower.

Thunder Rumbling & Rain Falling in the Misty Mountains: One Hour (Loopable)​

Tropical Rain Sounds & Heavy Rolling Thunder in Bali: One Hour​

 

[Another Johnson]

Here are two recordings on Qobuz of thunderstorms. These both have pretty good examples of thunder and do get down lower.

Thunder Rumbling & Rain Falling in the Misty Mountains: One Hour (Loopable)​

Tropical Rain Sounds & Heavy Rolling Thunder in Bali: One Hour​

Thanks!
It turns out there are several more too. I did not realize that this was a popular subject for recording. One was done at a cabin on a Norwegian lake … but from listening to several of these storm tapes now, they all sound like rain to me. Riders on the Storm wins for me because the storm is a condiment, not the meat.

 

[Argonaut]

A very nicely thought out, filmed and produced home Doors video , A shame that the audio isn’t ? a recording of the system in room … However :

 

[Tuckers]

Two more thunderstorm recordings by Gordon Hempton. One in Amazon rainforest, and another in Kalahari desert. Gordon uses very wideband microphones, so both the top end and bottom end are represented well.

South America: Amazon Rain Forest

Desert Thunder

 

[Tabl10s]

The first Mobile Fidelity record I remember buying was entitled The Power and The Majesty.

The Power and the Majesty – U.S. Mobile Fidelity sound effects audiophile LP

I still have it and I’m pretty sure it’s still sealed.

Reviewers used to make fun of audiophiles who listened to thunderstorms and locomotives instead of music. But everyone recognizes these sounds as serious “limits of your system” tests.

Like David Wilson’s desire to get the Apollo 13 launch sound track right. He came up with the humongous XS subwoofers for this purpose.

When I was in the Air Force, I had disc's that were recordings of oceans, nature, etc. The madness stopped after I purchased a CD of Whale songs(no music)and tried to listen for a soundstage!

 

[Atmasphere]

Soil Festivities Movement 1

 

[Robh3606]

Thunder is visceral, sub sonic, so you really need good LF extension to even get close. My stereo can't shake my home to the foundation.

Rob

 

[Another Johnson]

Thunder is visceral, sub sonic, so you really need good LF extension to even get close. My stereo can't shake my home to the foundation.

Rob

At one house I ran powerful active subs. On Paula Cole’s Tiger, the whole three story house would vibrate. It scared me and pushed me to main systems installed on concrete slabs … which is my current set up (but I don’t use subs anymore, except in the HT.

 

[PeterA]

I agree, bass is a big factor on thunder. Rain is more about soundstage and depth. I was playing a bunch of track from Qbuz last night. Some are better than others. With my system, non have the depth or atmosphere to make me feel its real. It's pretty, but not real.
@stehno . I will stop by soon to judge your setup for you.

You’re talking about rain hitting something, right?

Since you mention Black Sabbath, first few minutes, first cut, first album. It sets a mood for the coming dread.

 

[Robh3606]

Just put on Jurassic Park the beginning T-rex scene. That whole rain sequence is good from a couple of drops to all hell breaking loose.