Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[sbnx]

Thanks again for sharing. This is definitely one of the best threads in the history of this forum - for its positive tone and educational value - so different from the regular fair here where guys are arguing about different tastes and approaches, about experiences they never shared together (and never will), or some arrogant idiot assuming everyone should feel the same emotions from his (expensive) concoction of stereo.

I need to re-read this thread from the beginning again to get the full picture, but didn't you have Sterling Trayle at your place previously or did I misunderstand? If so, what were the goals of the first session vs this one.

Also, if possible, can you please let me know if the "Key to the Highway" track on Junior Wells Album On Tap sounds acceptable to you, especially the incredible guitar solo by Sammy Lawhorn at about 2;10 minute mark. (I talked to many guys in the blues industry there in the studio with him, and if this guy wasn't a drunk, he would definitely be considered one of the greatest guitarists.) Likewise, if your streaming service offers this, does "First Time I met the Blues" from Buddy Guy Live at Hiroshima sound? No videos necessary - just curios if one can listen to normal music on this system without the system being over-analytical and presenting normal recordings in a non-offensive way.

Many Thanks!

Caesar,

Thank you for the kind words. I like to keep my forum posts civil and focused more on objective things we can talk about. I did have Stirling over back in August to help me with the left spacehorn. I was struggling with it as I was raking it forward to match the trio and I didn't have nearly enough height. In that day we were able to get the space horn orientation largely figured out. We did capitalize on that experience when setting up the whole system. I will listen to those two songs and report back to you how I think they sound. I will pay specific attention to the sectoins you mentioned.

 

[bonzo75]

Jbl Everest are poor

 

[sbnx]

I am no longer a fan of visually imposing audio systems but yours is one of the very few that I find absolutely stunning.

Question. Have you and Jason / TAS consulted with each other on the Trios, components, etc. and had an opportunity to hear each others current system?

Thank you for your kind remarks. I can understand your stance on "visually imposing" as this one definitely qualifies. Sometimes less is more. For me right now I am just going for it.

Jacob and I have not talked. I have never even met him. Perhaps I can arrange a trip to his place sometime to compare how the two systems differ in presentation.

 

[bonzo75]

I think it really depends on your experiences. Many older horns from the 70s, 80s, 90s to my ears sounded like Scott said; my experiences were - want concert - like volume but want your ears to bleed, get horns, otherwise get planars or cones. About 10 years back, I heard the JBL Everest and they were abysmal. Tinny, non - coherent however, I do recall the gear not being anything special, FWIW.

However, there are still great newer choices. For example, the Aries Cerat dealer near me had the Symphonia speakers and they weren't remotely shouty or ear -bleeding via highs. But, they're also expensive and had $$ AC tube gear backing them FWIW. Still not my cup of tea, but miles better than what I experienced in the past. YMMV.

Jbl Everest are poor. So nothing here disagreeing with my experience. Just that I have heard too many horns where I and others can listen fatigue free for 6 hours or so and they excel on everything from small chamber and solos to orchestra and rock. And too many examples posted

 

[remdeck]

@sbnx ,

Thanx for this awesome thread about your Trio G3.
I've yet to hear the new generation Avantgarde Acoustic, using Uno (from 2004) for 9 years now.

I'm so happy for you, you got to this level with all your commitment and dedication.
I've set up quite some speakers, but your way doing it was new to me. I would also like to try this.
Can you once explain how to do it?
As I understand, you start with 1 speaker. You wrote, turn the other speaker away. I think you mean also switch it off?
And when you listen to this one speaker, do you use a mono signal as input? (summed L & R channels) Otherwise it can sound strange with diffuse signals from the other side.

Regards, Remco

 

[Audiohertz2]

Here is a pic of the final system

Wow, supernova setup ....



Regards

 

[caesar]

Jacob and I have not talked. I have never even met him. Perhaps I can arrange a trip to his place sometime to compare how the two systems differ in presentation.

Wouldn't that be something? I believe Heilbrunn has an excellent room, looking at pictures. But I wonder how many reviewers would have the courage to invite a seriously knowledgeable individual into their in fear of bursting the aura of authority and omnipotence. I believe most reviewers get slightly better sound that show conditions, and very few are able to maximize the sound to the full potential.

Do you know how many other Trios exist in North America? I am sure all of those guys can benefit from your wisdom and hard-earned knowledge about the product.

And now Minnesota Fats has acquired the MBL Extremes, so maybe you can help him with the setup and master the MBL technology

 

[sbnx]

Also, if possible, can you please let me know if the "Key to the Highway" track on Junior Wells Album On Tap sounds acceptable to you, especially the incredible guitar solo by Sammy Lawhorn at about 2;10 minute mark. (I talked to many guys in the blues industry there in the studio with him, and if this guy wasn't a drunk, he would definitely be considered one of the greatest guitarists.) Likewise, if your streaming service offers this, does "First Time I met the Blues" from Buddy Guy Live at Hiroshima sound? No videos necessary - just curios if one can listen to normal music on this system without the system being over-analytical and presenting normal recordings in a non-offensive way.

Many Thanks!

I listened to both songs via Qobuz. They both sound good. The harp in "Key to the Highway" is a little on edge but still perfecty manageable. The guitar solo sounds really good. "First Time I met the Blues" sounds good and is extremely listenable. I really enjoyed it. There is no problem listening to "regular" recordings. See Scott's post above as we spent 4.5 hours listening to all kinds of non-audiophile stuff.

 

[sbnx]

Wouldn't that be something? I believe Heilbrunn has an excellent room, looking at pictures. But I wonder how many reviewers would have the courage to invite a seriously knowledgeable individual into their in fear of bursting the aura of authority and omnipotence. I believe most reviewers get slightly better sound that show conditions, and very few are able to maximize the sound to the full potential.

Do you know how many other Trios exist in North America? I am sure all of those guys can benefit from your wisdom and hard-earned knowledge about the product.

And now Minnesota Fats has acquired the MBL Extremes, so maybe you can help him with the setup and master the MBL technology

I am sure Jacob knows good sound. Curiosity is the only reason to hear his system. I am always curious how any reviewers system sounded when they wrote the review. For no other reason than to align vocabulary.

I have no idea how many other trios exist in North America. The Audiophile Junkie did a video review (3 videos) of a Trio system in Berverly Hills. You might want to check that out. Interesting stuff.

I would have no idea of how to setup a pair MBL Extreme's. The MBL has a non-traditional approach to sound reproduction in a room with its 360 degree, omnidirectional thing. It is the exact opposite of a horn.

 

[sbnx]

@sbnx ,

Thanx for this awesome thread about your Trio G3.
I've yet to hear the new generation Avantgarde Acoustic, using Uno (from 2004) for 9 years now.

I'm so happy for you, you got to this level with all your commitment and dedication.
I've set up quite some speakers, but your way doing it was new to me. I would also like to try this.
Can you once explain how to do it?
As I understand, you start with 1 speaker. You wrote, turn the other speaker away. I think you mean also switch it off?
And when you listen to this one speaker, do you use a mono signal as input? (summed L & R channels) Otherwise it can sound strange with diffuse signals from the other side.

Regards, Remco

It is a little complicated. The idea is to perfect the sound of the left channel and then match the right channel. You start with the right channel is pushed back some and turned away ( 30-45 degrees) toward the outside. The right channel is playing and is just diffuse information. You listen to and correct the sound of the left speaker to the best level you can achieve. You can go back and watch some of the earlier videos in this thread which have some information. If you want to witness it being done and experience the result then you could hire Stirling Trayle to perform the setup for you.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Have to agree with Caesar as this has been one of the most enjoyable reads since I have been on WBF. I admire your passion and tenacity to really get the horns dialed it. As a horn man myself I can attest to the immense challenge of this undertaking. Kudos to you and I hope to one day get to experience the fruits of your labor.

 

[remdeck]

It is a little complicated. The idea is to perfect the sound of the left channel and then match the right channel. You start with the right channel is pushed back some and turned away ( 30-45 degrees) toward the outside. The right channel is playing and is just diffuse information. You listen to and correct the sound of the left speaker to the best level you can achieve. You can go back and watch some of the earlier videos in this thread which have some information. If you want to witness it being done and experience the result then you could hire Stirling Trayle to perform the setup for you.

Thx Todd,

That's how I read it, understood it, but it doesn't make sense to me, to have the right speaker working, as especially in the bass region it will bring in a lot.
But I will try this and get back to you, how it works out for me.
I'm in Germany. To get Stirling do the job will cost me more than my complete system costs and I don't have this kind of money

Regards

 

[Lagonda]

Thx Todd,

That's how I read it, understood it, but it doesn't make sense to me, to have the right speaker working, as especially in the bass region it will bring in a lot.
But I will try this and get back to you, how it works out for me.
I'm in Germany. To get Stirling do the job will cost me more than my complete system costs and I don't have this kind of money

Regards

We can do Stirling goes to Europe roadtrip, a couple of stops in Germany, and on to Denmark !

 

[remdeck]

We can do Stirling goes to Europe roadtrip, a couple of stops in Germany, and on to Denmark !

Then I will visit you too

 

[Lagonda]

Then I will visit you too

Du bist willkommen !

 

[marslo]

We can do Stirling goes to Europe roadtrip, a couple of stops in Germany, and on to Denmark !

I am only 300 kms from Berlin.
Put me on the list pls

 

[joey_v]

I was fortunate enough to have met Todd a while back and have exchanged conversation and discussion with him offline. We have also had the good fortune to have met each other at a few meets at our local audiophile club here in Dallas.

A couple weekends ago, Todd invited me over. After a few back and forth messages, we decided on a day that we were both free and I trekked over to his place.

I have been to his house once before when he first took delivery of the Trio so I had an appetizer already. I had never heard it yet however as he is detailed beyond anyone else I know with regards to set up and making sure the system sounds just right.

I entered the front door, the dogs were missing this time. He wanted the place quiet. We walked through the foyer and I noticed his Vivids and his Wilson Sophias were no longer present, they were in crates waiting for the next owners. In the room immediately right of the foyer, the area was empty, awaiting the next secondary system to be set up. To the left of the foyer was a dining room with equipment and tweaks on top of tweaks. He showed me a few speaker cable risers and other interesting audiophile gadgetry that he was no longer interested in using.

We walked over to the dedicated room.

We approached the door, but I noticed little details I had not noticed before. There was a seal across the perimeter of the door. It would swing in to open, but when you closed it, the base of the door would release a lower seal that would effectively airlock the door (to an extent) to the floor. The door felt solid - I believe it is an external door moved inside.

The door opens, and I recall the room. It is a rather large dedicated room. Approx 20' wide, 30 deep', and about 12' or so tall, with a tray ceiling. The room seems very similar to Mike Lavigne's in design. There is a curved diffusor up front, there are these saw tooth appearing vertical arrays and ceiling clouds toward the front 2/3 of the room. The rear 1/3 or so is more absorbed than the front half or 2/3.... though there appear to be scatter plates around some of the rearward room absorbers.

The system is symmetric and well assembled - curated, if you will. Every little detail is not too small for Todd. I did notice the azimuth data which was written with a black sharpie on blue painters tape was gone... I asked him why - he said because he's completed the set up.

He has a Shunyata everest to the rear most, he has the CH precision L10 and C1.2 (correct me if I'm wrong) units. He has the Wadax Reference Server. He has CAD (correct me if I'm wrong) grounding for the main system, and Nordost grounds for each of the left and right speakers. Two WB Torus subs flank the right and left rearmost areas of the system as well.

Cabling I believe is Argento Flowmaster for power. I do not recall the interconnects.

Towards the middle of the room sits the Trio. The spacehorns flank the Trios laterally. I tapped the subwoofer (right) in a marvel of the unit... quickly reminded by Todd that the space horns are set to the millimeter.... I looked to the floor and I saw silicone gel helping hold the unit's spikes to the ground (on wood platforms currently, will be exchanged to a longer titanium spike shortly). Then I noticed that most of his large units were silicone gelled to the floor... and then I realized, I was no longer in Kansas.

We sat down after about an hour of system tour... and we started listening. First he asked me if I wanted it dark or mid or all lights on, I prefer it darker.

He took me through a lot of demo tracks before handing me the iPad. After the session, he asked me what did I think in 3 adjectives.

Sound impressions to follow...

 

[joey_v]

Sound Impressions:

If you haven't realized it by now, Todd is not an average audiophile. His attention to detail is unsurpassed. I believe his set up abilities are beyond most in our hobby. And on top of that, he has the budget AND the room to make it happen.

His trios are set up to a T.

The imaging was spot on. Realistic in size and dimension. The imaging was tight when it was supposed to be, and dense when it was supposed to be. I also felt like his image had good grounding effect (the feel that the image was rooted to the floor rather than floating with lack of imaging or sound to the lower half of the soundstage/room).

Timing was definitely a point that Todd wanted to impart to me. He would have me listen to the clarinet and oboe and how it would be perfectly timed to the bass notes. Little details that I initially missed... we would play the track back several times so that I could appreciate the appropriate timing of notes. He also then let me hear that phase inversion at the level of the CH preamp was definitely audible... and yes, this was easily audible. One phase sounded better than the other.

He also let me listen to the start of a classical track (the title escapes me currently, Todd, if you could let me know), where you could feel the energy in the hall build up from the floor to the ceiling, much like when the doors are closed right before a symphony concert. We went through this several times and it was perfectly apparent that there was this surge of energy and air that you can detect.

The bass was also something to be marvel over... I preferred the system with the space horns AND the torus activated.

I felt like the tone was just right, the timbre correct, the bass plentiful but without drone or unnecessary overtones. The system is definitely extremely dynamic... and the macro and micro dynamics are beyond what I normally consider a reference system at baseline.

One of the things I gathered from my audition is just how resolute the system truly is. Little things that I miss in any other system (including my own) were easily heard in Todd's.

I enjoyed my visit to Todd's.

He asked me to offer any constructive criticism. From the details I have just written up, his system is curated to the 9s.

 

[sbnx]

Posting this as a cross reference thread for any visitor to this thread in the future.

Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

Today I visited Todd and his wife, Sally (who wants Todd to mount actual musical instruments on the kitchen walls -- Go Sally!), to audition his Avantgarde Trio G3 + iTron system. Todd uses Avantgarde bass-horns and a pair of Wilson Benesch Torus subwoofers. Todd's system is digital only, with...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[caesar]

I am sure Jacob knows good sound. Curiosity is the only reason to hear his system. I am always curious how any reviewers system sounded when they wrote the review. For no other reason than to align vocabulary.

I have no idea how many other trios exist in North America. The Audiophile Junkie did a video review (3 videos) of a Trio system in Berverly Hills. You might want to check that out. Interesting stuff.

I would have no idea of how to setup a pair MBL Extreme's. The MBL has a non-traditional approach to sound reproduction in a room with its 360 degree, omnidirectional thing. It is the exact opposite of a horn.

Hey, for some reason I thought you had an interest with speaker setup, and there's definitely a vast shortage of knowledge and the will on behalf of the audiophile buyers, to get the max out of their audio investment (other than satisfying audio jewelry needs) .....and omnis definitely present their challenges...

But I just saw in your signature that you became an Avantgarde dealer, so helps put things in context.

Congrats! and Best of Luck!

P.S. Any desire to get some tube amps/ SETs to satisfy the needs / tastes of some of potential customers?