Transparency vs "Symphonic coloration" in modern DAC gear.

[Blizzard]

Hi Guys,

The topic for this thread was inspired by a debate that started over on the Lampizator measurement thread.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18792-Lampizator-DAC-measurements&p=347730#post347730



As a designer of audio gear, there's 2 paths you can go down:

1: Design the equipment to be as transparent as possible. Straight wire with gain. No additional colorations added to the music.

2: Purposely design coloration into the equipment because it can make music more enjoyable to listen to.


Most highend audio companies go down path #2. Why is that? Well simply because it's much easier to sell products that sprinkle a little fairy dust on the recordings. It's no different than Samsung having a special setting for TV's at Bestbuy to artificially make the colours pop. Another reason is it makes the components more forgiving of either poor quality components in the chain, or poor quality recordings.

My personal opinion on the matter is, if the colorations are engineered into the hardware, they are there for good. You simply can't turn them off. You will also never be able to experience the recordings the same way the studio intended them to sound. However if the components are designed for upmost transparency, you can always emulate desired colorations in the digital domain. And when you have that flawless recording, simply disable.

If the recordings are mastered in the finest way possible at the studio, you should want to hear them the purest way possible.

Another thing that can be done if you choose a DAC designed for upmost transparency is, add the desired colorations by making new recordings via the analog outputs of the colored source, using ultra transparent ADC's and software in DSD 256. Using this technique, all you need to do is just buy an ADC/DAC combo that's designed for upmost transparency, and borrow the colored gear of your choice to make your own recordings that will have the colorations embedded right into them. Then you simply playback via the transparent DAC section, and there you go, an exact replica of the colored source. Best of all, if you get tired of that sound, do it again with the latest, greatest colored source, instead of buying something new.


Makes sense to me

 

[wisnon]

What kind of straight wire? What alloy? Surely the wire adds its own color. Everything is entangled.

Goldmund for example places highest emphasis on TIME domain.

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF2O9lbddg

I think he shows the antagonistic relationship between "measurement" and mastering the TIME domain.

 

[Blizzard]

What kind of straight wire? What alloy? Surely the wire adds its own color. Everything is entangled.

Goldmund for example places highest emphasis on TIME domain.

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF2O9lbddg



I think he shows the antagonistic relationship between "measurement" and mastering the TIME domain.

If a manufacturer's goal is to produce DAC's with transparency as the #1 goal, they probably have a better chance of achieving this than if they are designed to add "Symphonic colorations".

 

[bonzo75]

So just to clarify, you are trying to design an active system, with a transparent dac, and are you planning to go commercial?

 

[Blizzard]

So just to clarify, you are trying to design an active system, with a transparent dac, and are you planning to go commercial?

As I have mentioned several times on this forum, I'm currently tinkering with projects on a hobbiest level. The reason I'm on these forums now is to brainstorm with people, as well as gather and share ideas. The design goal with my system is upmost transparency, and if coloration is desired, add in the digital domain. I strongly feel that this is the way of the future.

If I can reach my design goals, I may decide to enter the commercial market.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So just to clarify, you are trying to design an active system, with a transparent dac, and are you planning to go commercial?

It's a tricky marketplace. Top MSB at $70k, Trinity at $45k, Merging Nadac $12.5k, Merging Horus at $5k. Maybe a true giant killer at $1k-$3k?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You can buy an audibly transparent DAC according to measurements for not a lot of money. Oppo 105d will measure with imperceptible levels of distortion and s/n as good as you can hear. No point wasting your time designing another.

Of course, if (like me) you actually listen to dacs you might realise that an oppo 105d is not as good as it gets for realistic music reproduction.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Oh. And wtf has an orchestral symphony got to do with coloration?

 

[bonzo75]

If I can reach my design goals, I may decide to enter the commercial market.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Blizzard]

You can buy an audibly transparent DAC according to measurements for not a lot of money. Oppo 105d will measure with imperceptible levels of distortion and s/n as good as you can hear. No point wasting your time designing another.

Of course, if (like me) you actually listen to dacs you might realise that an oppo 105d is not as good as it gets for realistic music reproduction.

I think the Merging products could fit into the category of DAC's designed to be absolutely transparent. The Resonessence Mirus via the SD card transport, is my reference for transparency.

 

[Blizzard]

Oh. And wtf has an orchestral symphony got to do with coloration?

That's just a Euphemism that Bonzo coined. So I thought I'd use it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh. And wtf has an orchestral symphony got to do with coloration?

Bill, I already tried to correct Blizz when he mentioned "euphoric coloration" on another thread, and I think he meant "euphonic coloration". Maybe this is a typo, maybe not.

 

[still-one]

I want gear that gets me as close to what I want to hear. Whether is accurate to how it was mixed is almost irrelevant since I will never listen to the music through headphones or a pair monitors sitting a few feet in front of me.

I will say I prefer gear that is tilted towards accurate. That said when I A/B gear to see which goes into my system I just pick the one that gets me closer to what I am looking for.

 

[wisnon]

I think the Merging products could fit into the category of DAC's designed to be absolutely transparent. The Resonessence Mirus via the SD card transport, is my reference for transparency.

Mixing metaphors here. SD card is a transport and Mirus is a Dac. So are you saying the Mirus is not a reference for transparency when fed by other means? And would any old Dac be such a refence with a quality SD card feed???

 

[Blizzard]

I want gear that gets me as close to what I want to hear. Whether is accurate to how it was mixed is almost irrelevant since I will never listen to the music through headphones or a pair monitors sitting a few feet in front of me.

I will say I prefer gear that is tilted towards accurate. That said when I A/B gear to see which goes into my system I just pick the one that gets me closer to what I am looking for.

With completely transparent gear, you can tune the sound to your exact tastes in the digital domain.

 

[PeterA]

What do you mean by "symphonic coloration"? And do you distinguish between transparency and neutrality? I tend to think of coloration as a frequency response issue effecting tonality. And neutrality as a fairly flat frequency response as in tonally neutral. I think of transparency as lacking an artificial/mechanical quality. So a transparent system/component is one that is audibly invisible and strives to reproduce exactly what is on the recording.

I have found that a tonally neutral and transparent system gets one closest to the recording and can sound extremely warm, beautiful and natural, just like real acoustic music. If I want to add a coloration to everything, I prefer to try different cartridges. I don't have digital gear.

 

[wisnon]

With completely transparent gear, you can tune the sound to your exact tastes in the digital domain.

Perhaps, but do you have $500K to shell out. For the record, to my ears the B7 destroys the Invicta or Mirus as a Dac and the GG will TOTAL destruction. LoL

 

[wisnon]

I have found that a tonally neutral and transparent system gets one closest to the recording and can sound extremely warm, beautiful and natural, just like real acoustic music. If I want to add a coloration to everything, I prefer to try different cartridges. I don't have digital gear.

It is precisely this description I mostly read from Lampi owners when the say what influenced their decision to buy one. Indeed, most reviews say that the Lampi sounds like real music, real instruments!

 

[wisnon]

But they are totally different designs, one is a contemporary over sampling design and one is NOS, they are very different.
If you want to compare best to compare over sampling design versus another over sampling design, and nos vs nos.
Keith

And what about chipless DSD which is completely out of the sampling box??

 

[Blizzard]

What do you mean by "symphonic coloration"? And do you distinguish between transparency and neutrality? I tend to think of coloration as a frequency response issue effecting tonality. And neutrality as a fairly flat frequency response as in tonally neutral. I think of transparency as lacking an artificial/mechanical quality. So a transparent system/component is one that is audibly invisible and strives to reproduce exactly what is on the recording.

I have found that a tonally neutral and transparent system gets one closest to the recording and can sound extremely warm, beautiful and natural, just like real acoustic music. If I want to add a coloration to everything, I prefer to try different cartridges. I don't have digital gear.

See above comment. It was Bonzo's discription discribing the type of coloration experienced from tube gear for instance.