Trinnov ST2
- Thread starter The Bogg
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Keep in mind you would still need a box to decode your digital signal coming in over HDMI. The Trinnov will not do this for you. Given lack of digital outputs on SSPs, you will then need A/D/A conversion. If you subscribe to the weakest link theory you will need a high grade SSP in addition to the Trinnov processor, and are back to a two box solution and easily over 20 grand worth of gear. Alternatively you could get a (used) Theta CBIII HD with just a digi out card and no DACs and go all digital into the Trinnov. This should set you back around 7K (just for the Theta). Either way, this won't be cheap, and will look much like the ADA + PEQ setup.
Unless of course you get a very high grade universal player for MCH audio (like my Marantz UD9004), which would go analog into your Trinnov. You would feed the trinnov digital inputs for your two channel source(s). Only thing you cannot do with this setup is run a MCH digital satellite receiver into your system. If you're OK with two channel audio for your TV, this should be fine.
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Short of Theta and Tact, there are no SSPs with digital outs on all channels. Note that bandwith on digital outs is resticted anyway because of HDMI licensing. You may indeed be better off getting a very good analog out SSP, and do A/D/A conversion, rather than have a downsampled digital output. But anything at this level will be at least 7K and you would end up with an ADA / Trinnov type setup/pricepoint. No point putting a 12K processor behind a 2K SSP IMO - although apparently you can get very good SSPs for 2K there days. I think getting a SOTA universal analog universal player (which is what I am doing) as a source if you have limited input / switching needs is a viable option as well. With 7.1 outs on the player and Trinnov crossing over and mapping the subs you can go all the way up to a 7.4 setup.
You seem to be concentrated on the digital equation;
I heard excellent sound from A/D/A conversion,
and I'm happy myself to go this way and save money too.
It's Best for me. :b
I heard excellent sound from A/D/A conversion,
and I'm happy myself to go this way and save money too.
It's Best for me. :b
I admit to being heavily prejudiced against A/D/A conversion, with absolutely no personal experience to rationalize that prejudice. I will soon learn more, because I will do A/D/A conversion on my MCH sources from the ud9004 into the Trinnov. It is very conceivable that when all is said an done, and A/D/A converted "source direct (i.e. native DSD)" SACD analog out of my Marantz, will sound better than that same SACD first converted to 88/24 LPCM by an Oppo, routed/processed through a SSP, and then downsampled to 48/24 (or is it 48/16?) on a digi out card out of a CBIII HD. This is why I think a very good universal player directly analog into the Trinnov holds a lot of promise to me. Curt used to do this himself he mentioned - using a Denon universal player.
That said, there is a guy on the PS audio forum that uses the Trinnov with a PS audio perfectwave DAC, and he has PS audio DAC BEFORE the Trinnov, doing A/D/A conversion. I told him this is madness since he is now hearing the Trinnov DAC's not the PS audio (actually - both). In this case, you want to have the best DAC (presumably the PS audio) AFTER the Trinnov, use it for mains, and use the Trinnov DAC just for subs. This is precisely what I am planning to do for my 2 channel signal path (using a PS audio dac as well). If you can avoid A/D/A conversion you always should IMO.
OR .....I have done some research (with direction from Curt) and there are some BR player mods that will take the hdmi and provide 4 digital outputs from it, and according to Curt, the Trinnov (8 or 12 channel version) can handle that.
That said, I have zero qualms about converting the center/ surround channels/subs from analog to digital and back. I was involved many years ago in a blind test converting LP's on the fly to digital using a pro model A to D converter and using the dCS stack to upconvert back to analog and comparing to the live LP analog feed. Not one person got it consistently right and that was at a lot less resolution than 24/192!! For two channel, I can take the digital output from my server and go digital into the Trinnov.
I just need to someone to make the same mod for my DirecTV receiver!!
There are indeed mods that give you 4 x digital coax out at full resolution from a universal player. Probably not much better sounding than a very good analog (marants ud9004 level) MCH player and doing A/D/A conversion. The modded digital route may be cheaper though.
You can most likely get a dolby digital decoder box with coax digital in and 3 x coax digital out which would take care of your satelitte receiver. Unlike HDMI, there are no licensing restictions here. If you have a 12 channel trinnov pro unit, you can connect your stereo digital source to one digital input, and use a few other inputs for decoded MCH digital satellite TV. You may have to convert S/PDIF to AES/EBU though.
I have some experience with A/D/A and, while I have not been able to discern negative consequences from the best device, I still share that bias.
Why would you presume so? Do you have the same prejudice against CD output via S/PDIF, assuming that the D/A is equally good in player and processor?
Kal, yes - if the DAC and analog output stage are of equal quality I would be biased against a transport with outboard DAC over S/PDIF and get the integrated player. The reason being that sending bits over a cable using an S/PDIF interface will have more degradation than sending the same bits over the data bus internal to a player. The only reason to get an outboard DAC is if its BETTER than the onboard DAC.
However, that is somewhat besides the point and not the reason why I think the MCH 4 x coax digital moddel player is not likely to be better than a very good analog player applying A/D conversion.
Yes, if a MCH digital transport was build to the same standards an ud9004 (say an EMM labs transport with unencryted LPCM AES/EBU outputs) it would undoubtedly be better than analog out of an ud9004 with A/D conversion. However, the player offering this (illegal!) feature is essentially a garage operation modded $500 Oppo. Then you need to do S/PDIF to AES/EBU conversions to use it with the trinnov pro unit. By the time these bits arrive at the trinnov it is not unlikely they are very jittery and not any better than an A/D conversion of a very high grade analog signal.
Second, - and I know you disagree on this - for SACD the modded Oppo digital transport would need an DSD to PCM conversion, whereas the ud9004 will do source direct (no conversion). In my experience source direct always beats converted to PCM.
What will sound best is all pure speculation and can only be established empircally, but my assumptions are not entirely unreasonable IMO.
Edorr (and others), let me give a little background on my system and then explain what I hoped to gain from the Trinnov and finally what I did gain.
It's a dedicated Rives room, level 3 design. I had hoped that doing this would lead to plunking down the speakers and enjoying "perfect sound forever" but it just wasn't meant to be, lol. Below 3-400hz there were significant measured and audible colourations. It imaged quite well and was "decent" but not as good as I had expected.
I hired Adam Pelz to come up and give an opinion on changes to the room and optimization strategies. He moved the speakers a bit and basically asymmetrically placed my front 2 subs to cancel out a 50hz null at the main listening position. The pair of F113s were crossed over but the mains were run full range. Adam said if we introduced a QSC dsp unit he could get it better but he was impressed at the improvement and it did sound pretty good now. There was just a bit of excess between 100-200hz and it was ever so slightly "muffled" so you have to listen at a bit more than background volume to really enjoy it. Basically, I could live with it. I tried playing around with my Accuphase DG-28 digital eq but most of the time I ran without any eq.
I read the review about the Trinnov and was intrigued. Got the demo unit and I have to reiterate what others have said: do whatever it takes to get Curt to set it up over VNC. He spent a bit over an hour with me and really made a difference. When I did it on my own I didn't end up with a satisfactory result (for a number of reasons not necessarily the Trinnovs fault - it's because I didn't tell it that I had subs). Curt set up the system for stereo subs (the result with "bass management" wasn't as good) and it not only cleared up the midbass excess but the highs are that much better too. I don't think it was simple "unmasking" related to turning down the midbass bloat, but the quality and detail of the highs has improved significantly. The bass is FANTASTIC.
In the beginning I spent a LOT of time doing bypass tests on the unit and I couldn't distinguish it from my regular sound (cdp to dac to preamp to speakers) when it was inserted between cdp and dac or if I put cdp into it and outputted analog from the Trinnov into my preamp. The only way I can think of taking 2 input channels and outputting 4 analog channels (2 mains and 2 subs) and having remote volume control via my regular preamp (which has built in phono stage) was to run the preamp 2 channels into the trinnov (a/d section) and using the 4 outputs. Yes, that means extra conversions, but I listened very critically and couldn't reliably hear a difference. That was good enough for me so that's how I spent most of my time with the unit. If it is giving up something with the extra conversions it sure makes up for it with the huge improvement in bass and highs.
As far as downsides, for some reason the images of vocals pulls to the left speaker far more than it should. I'm quite confident that it's related to my not taking enough care in aiming the 3d microphone for the initial setup. I can't easily move my theatre seats in order to put the mic on a perfectly level tripod so I eyeballed it. Before I return the demo unit I'll try to confirm that is the case. There is just very slightly more hiss from the tweet and mid with the Trinnov in the loop (you have to be about 2 feet away from the drivers compared to about 6-9 inches with the system sans-Trinnov). The unit operates quietly and flawlessly. Very solid implementation of software.
Hope that helps. I'm planning on buying one. I'd love the multichannel version but since most of my cables are in-wall it isn't easy to do AND to keep the stereo part of the system where it is so I'll settle for the ST2 (which is much cheaper too!).
It's a dedicated Rives room, level 3 design. I had hoped that doing this would lead to plunking down the speakers and enjoying "perfect sound forever" but it just wasn't meant to be, lol. Below 3-400hz there were significant measured and audible colourations. It imaged quite well and was "decent" but not as good as I had expected.
I hired Adam Pelz to come up and give an opinion on changes to the room and optimization strategies. He moved the speakers a bit and basically asymmetrically placed my front 2 subs to cancel out a 50hz null at the main listening position. The pair of F113s were crossed over but the mains were run full range. Adam said if we introduced a QSC dsp unit he could get it better but he was impressed at the improvement and it did sound pretty good now. There was just a bit of excess between 100-200hz and it was ever so slightly "muffled" so you have to listen at a bit more than background volume to really enjoy it. Basically, I could live with it. I tried playing around with my Accuphase DG-28 digital eq but most of the time I ran without any eq.
I read the review about the Trinnov and was intrigued. Got the demo unit and I have to reiterate what others have said: do whatever it takes to get Curt to set it up over VNC. He spent a bit over an hour with me and really made a difference. When I did it on my own I didn't end up with a satisfactory result (for a number of reasons not necessarily the Trinnovs fault - it's because I didn't tell it that I had subs). Curt set up the system for stereo subs (the result with "bass management" wasn't as good) and it not only cleared up the midbass excess but the highs are that much better too. I don't think it was simple "unmasking" related to turning down the midbass bloat, but the quality and detail of the highs has improved significantly. The bass is FANTASTIC.
In the beginning I spent a LOT of time doing bypass tests on the unit and I couldn't distinguish it from my regular sound (cdp to dac to preamp to speakers) when it was inserted between cdp and dac or if I put cdp into it and outputted analog from the Trinnov into my preamp. The only way I can think of taking 2 input channels and outputting 4 analog channels (2 mains and 2 subs) and having remote volume control via my regular preamp (which has built in phono stage) was to run the preamp 2 channels into the trinnov (a/d section) and using the 4 outputs. Yes, that means extra conversions, but I listened very critically and couldn't reliably hear a difference. That was good enough for me so that's how I spent most of my time with the unit. If it is giving up something with the extra conversions it sure makes up for it with the huge improvement in bass and highs.
As far as downsides, for some reason the images of vocals pulls to the left speaker far more than it should. I'm quite confident that it's related to my not taking enough care in aiming the 3d microphone for the initial setup. I can't easily move my theatre seats in order to put the mic on a perfectly level tripod so I eyeballed it. Before I return the demo unit I'll try to confirm that is the case. There is just very slightly more hiss from the tweet and mid with the Trinnov in the loop (you have to be about 2 feet away from the drivers compared to about 6-9 inches with the system sans-Trinnov). The unit operates quietly and flawlessly. Very solid implementation of software.
Hope that helps. I'm planning on buying one. I'd love the multichannel version but since most of my cables are in-wall it isn't easy to do AND to keep the stereo part of the system where it is so I'll settle for the ST2 (which is much cheaper too!).
Thanks for explaining - not a chance I am going to run my perfectwave DAC into my tube preamp into the trinnov for A/D/A conversion. I'll try trinnov digital out to outboard (PS audio) DAC and trinnov DAC for subs, and do digital domain volume control in the trinnov. Then, I'll try the same, with the trinnov at unity gain, using my multi channel analog preamp (Six Shooter).
If you do trinnov digital out to PS Audio and trinnov analog to subs how are you going to adjust the volume and keep the relative volume okay for speakers and subs? I don't think attenuating the audio will affect the digital output going to your dac.
The Trinnov digital volume control seems to be a good implementation, but it is still a digital volume control theoretically losing bits with more attenuation. But as always the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and it's tasty.
The Trinnov digital volume control seems to be a good implementation, but it is still a digital volume control theoretically losing bits with more attenuation. But as always the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and it's tasty.
The volume control on the trinnov is digital. The volume level information is contained in the digital signal the Trinnov sends to the downstream DAC, so the downstream DAC and the subs using the DAC in the trinnov will keep their volume levels in synch. The only thing I cannot do is use an analog 2 channel tube preamp downstream in this setup. The only way to keep the tubes in the chain is to get a 2nd 2 channel analog preamp for the subs, play the Trinnov at unity gain and control the two preamps with a macro on programmable remote control that keeps things in synch. At some point I thought about doing this, but I now think it is too much of a hassle, so I will first evaluate the Trinnov using the digital volume control, and second with my MCH analog preamp (six shooter) downstream, and see what works best. By the way if you want an analog volume control, you can get two passive placette preamps - they can be chained together and do 4 channel volume control for your mains and subs. Apparently this is a very transparent solution, but not cheap, especially if you need balanced.
Curt's having a good week. Just placed the order for an ST-2 Pro.
Anyone interested in a loaded (AAA), tricked out TacT 2.2XP before I A-gon it?
