Tripoint troy signature grounding device

[Tango]

Sorry, I am not understanding. The Empress has two terminals - where do you connect each of them in the system?

Yes, two terminals. People in HK connect the two to positive and negative speaker terminal on the speaker.
I happen to have a bi-wire speaker so my connection differs from them. And I happened to find connecting to both negative terminal of my bi-wire works best. I asked AE and emailed my question to Tripoint, but did not get any reply.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
Can you tell us how you would connect each Tripoint Empress in your system and in classical systems with passive speakers?

Sorry Micro, I only answered half of your question.

As far as grounding a classic passive speaker without the easy access to ground that my distribution panel offers, a few thoughts come to mind.

First; I'm not sure what forces are at work here. It's possible that my ground connections are onto powder coated metal and I'm not getting any electrical ground. Yet still the ground is obviously working well. So it's not crazy to try just attaching a ground anywhere on a speaker and just listening.

I could get more of the Tara Labs 'keys' for screw holes and see if that improves things as far as electrical connections.

I would recommmend to try grounding to the screws that attach the speaker terminals to the cabinet as the easy first step.

Maybe If you can remove a rear panel try and attach a ground to the crossover board.

Next I would suggest asking the speaker manufacturer for their thoughts on how to ground the crossover. They may be helpful.

And finally I would just try stuff and listen.

I can only say I approached this without any expectations. And got a now significant free bump in performance.

 

[microstrip]

Sorry Micro, I only answered half of your question.

As far as grounding a classic passive speaker without the easy access to ground that my distribution panel offers, a few thoughts come to mind.

First; I'm not sure what forces are at work here. It's possible that my ground connections are onto powder coated metal and I'm not getting any electrical ground. Yet still the ground is obviously working well. So it's not crazy to try just attaching a ground anywhere on a speaker and just listening.

I could get more of the Tara Labs 'keys' for screw holes and see if that improves things as far as electrical connections.

I would recommmend to try grounding to the screws that attach the speaker terminals to the cabinet as the easy first step.

Maybe If you can remove a rear panel try and attach a ground to the crossover board.

Next I would suggest asking the speaker manufacturer for their thoughts on how to ground the crossover. They may be helpful.

And finally I would just try stuff and listen.

I can only say I approached this without any expectations. And got a now significant free bump in performance.

Thanks. However digging in several sites I really got the idea that the Empress should be used directly between the (+) and ( -) of the speaker terminals, as Tang just suggested.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks. However digging in several sites I really got the idea that the Empress should be used directly between the (+) and ( -) of the speaker terminals, as Tang just suggested.

you could do that with the Entreq too, but you'd need two.

or just add a single Olympic Minimus to a Poseidon (which = 3 separate Olympic Minimus's in one chassis)

 

[Jazzhead]

you could do that with the Entreq too, but you'd need two.

or just add a single Olympic Minimus to a Poseidon (which = 3 separate Olympic Minimus's in one chassis)

Or the newly released , more cost effective Olympus Ten .

 

[LL21]

Or the newly released , more cost effective Olympus Ten .

What is the difference between Olympus Ten and Poseiden?

 

[LL21]

What is the difference between Olympus Ten and Poseiden?

Nevermind...already saw it on the website. Thanks for mentioning it!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

update after 24 hours with the ground on the passive main speaker towers.................we have 'liftoff'.

got home earlier and mowed the lawn before dark (going to rain every day for the next week), had dinner and so just came out and fired up the rig. another significant step up in terms of vividness and the startle factor from this morning, where the energy of the music is so immediate and feels released from any sense of processing.

a particular 'go to' track to see just how the detail has really changed is the 88.2/24 file (or CD or SACD or dsd file) of Anna Netrebko, 'Sempre Libera', track 11, Donizetti's "Ardon gli incense". Anna's fireworks, combined with the glass harmonica's soaring runs leaves no place to hide. i particularly listen for the interplay between Anna and the glass harmonica at 3:00 and after. the glass harmonica has all these textures and decays that get revealed more and more clearly as the performance improves.

we are now in new never before heard territory (even from this morning or last night). once you lock onto the sound of this track, it is a very good tool.

on the one hand i hate to mess with what i'm hearing now; but i will likely contact my speaker designer and discuss with him the best possible grounding approach with the passive main towers, maybe even a direct access to the crossover to ground that. as good as it is sounding, the odds of me stumbling onto the perfect spot with my casual SWAG approach is remote. there is likely a better sounding way.

note that part of these sonic changes this last 24 hours is the settling in of the switch of the bass tower grounding back to the Entreq Poseidon from the Troy Sig. that was done last night just before i hooked up the passive main tower ground. so it's two grounding cables per side coming up to optimization together. I've not ever heard the main tower grounding before so that is new and what i'm hearing is full frequency so i'm assigning that part to that cable, not the bass towers. but there a few changes simultaneously to consider.

 

[Tango]

Funny how Tripoint get scrutinized with so many questions in all aspects of the product while other tweaks with no less mystery how they work dont get asked the same way. If you read the users experiences on these products, they seem increasingly similar to those of Tripoint and grounding in general. Diffrent approaches but all lead to the same destination ?

Just a thought.

Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Funny how Tripoint get scrutinized with so many questions in all aspects of the product while other tweaks with no less mystery how they work dont get asked the same way. If you read the users experiences on these products, they seem increasingly similar to those of Tripoint and grounding in general. Diffrent approaches but all lead to the same destination ?

Just a thought.

Tang

so true, and maybe even somehow different cultures/regions react differently to the Tripoint approach with more or less skepticism and then essentially dismissing it or embracing it. not sure why that is. maybe it's the initial cost of admission, or maybe just one of those things that just happens.

everyone must go down the system development path with their own particular perspective......dealing with tweaks.

I do strongly view resonance control products, and grounding products, as two separate things.....each needing attention. the physical interfaces are like fine-tuning the muscles, the grounding like the tempering the heart and the blood.....of the system. given a choice, my heart and blood comes first. but muscles are also good to optimize.

not a perfect analogy, maybe someone has a better one, but it seems to fit my viewpoint.

maybe it's easier for the logical mind to grasp resonance tweaks than grounding tweaks, so we tend to gravitate down that road first. leaps of faith even taking the time and effort to investigate something not apparently logical is a human default setting result. that gravity is hard to overcome.

 

[Audiocrack]

the Elite is the real deal. period.

i'm trying to capture what it's doing.....or rather....what they (the Troy Sig on the amps, and the Elite on the sources) are doing.....and what additional the Elite added this afternoon to last night and this morning's Troy Sig perceptions.

boiling it down and leaving out the considerable emotional response which these changes prompt;

adding the Elite did two obvious major things; (1) propelled the music, supercharged the bass, added energy everywhere and pushed the already holographic 'reach out and touch it' character to new levels, and (2) added tonal and textural shading like you cannot believe everywhere. everything is not only way more complex yet more real and natural. the combination of one and two is that the music is 'real' right here, and right now.

the total package i'm now hearing (and only digital so far) would be like finding the most holographic, harmonically rich, and delicate tube amplifier on the most dynamic horns, and combining that with the lowest noise floor solid state amps and true full range perfectly coherent dynamic speakers. and this all is just my short-cut to trying to wrap my arms around the all around effect of both units together, compared to where I was with just the Troy Sig on my sources prior to last night.

and maybe a simpler way to describe it would be more tube like and horn like, yet adding more solid state super low noise, vividness, and ultra cohesiveness.

and this is with the Troy Sig on the amps for almost 24 hours now, and playing music through the Elite on the sources for about 90 minutes.

i'm guessing that the Elite on the amps might be a net gain over what i'm now hearing, but it takes quite a bit of imagination to envision where that might be sonically.

right now i'm listening to a dxd 352-24 mastering of a jazz recording (likely a tape transfer) and i'm hearing things sound live. the energy projected is not like reproduced music. it's physical and the presence is palpable. no; it's not all the way there. but it's really spooky and gets to that 'suspension of disbelief' level easily. farther than before.

Hi Mike, you have been living with the Tripoint Troy elite for about two weeks now I believe. Is it possible for you to elaborate somewhat more on what the Elite brings to the (music) table as regards imaging, density and palpability?

In my view the Elite technique makes the whole audio presentation so much more lifelike. I suppose we agree on that, but may I ask you in that regard a (possibly) tough question: is is possible for you to put a percentage on how much the Troy Elite contributed to a more lifelike (or non mechanical/human) music presentation (in comparison to the situation before adding the Troy elite)?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike, you have been living with the Tripoint Troy elite for about two weeks now I believe. Is it possible for you to elaborate somewhat more on what the Elite brings to the (music) table as regards imaging, density and palpability?

switching the Troy Elite and the Troy Signature back and forth and back again (A-B-A) between the sources and the mono blocks was educational; as it allowed me to more easily identify what takes the Elite to the higher level.

it most definitely added a couple of steps more overall energy and authority to the presentation, and then images were more fully developed and three dimensional, vocals had more a sense of head, body and mouth of the singer with a 'real' presence, massed voices were more naturally delineated with better textures and finer detail, horns traded degrees of congestion for higher levels of clarity and touch, pianos more texture and a feeling of mass and even directionality of orientation......all that sort of stuff. large scale music got just more relaxed and the degree of ease increased and my own physical reaction to the large scale music was more involving and not as assaultive. not sure you can break down those perceptions of reality into neat categories......just an overall closer connection to the inner message of the music. maybe what the Elite did was allow the source gear to just dig deeper into the information and reduce distortion.

what is additive to the good stuff, and what is removing the bad stuff? maybe Miguel could explain this?

and possibly if I would have stepped through a longer process of adding one ground cable at a time and months of stepping up into the full realization of what the 2 Thor's on the sources did I might have more information.

the music moved out in all directions with the Elite; this was not the balloon affect where stuff is just made bigger and inflated; this is where the sense of space is expanded and the envelope of reality is larger. we do little things where we do get this sense of differences with different gear; sometimes cables or power grid related. with the Elite the degree of increase was beyond subtle. it was a poke in the nose greater.

my system was already quite sorted out and the imaging was already outstanding to my ears two weeks ago when I inserted the Elite. so the Elite was not fixing things broken, it was taking what was there and pushing it further.

In my view the Elite technique makes the whole audio presentation so much more lifelike. I suppose we agree on that, but may I ask you in that regard a (possible) tough question: is is possible for you to put a percentage on how much the Troy Elite contributed to a more lifelike (or non mechanical/human) music presentation (in comparison to the situation before adding the Troy elite)?

this is a hard thing; but I will try. and i'm attempting to quantitate the degree of net change to the musical involvement......where 1% would be huge. I do think my system at present does allow for changes to be more easily perceived. a few years ago i'd say that my ability to notice differences was considerably less. lots of hard work applied to get the room and signal path out of the way of the musical message.

I've not had the Elite on the sources without the Troy Signature on the amps; but with that qualification I would say that the Elite on the sources added to the Troy Sig on the amps is taking the 'whole' 3% to 4% farther than with just the Troy Signature on the sources. this is big. and now this change with grounding the passive main speaker towers is another percent or so overall in degree of unveiled music.

stepping back and assessing the implications of a few percentage points higher overall performance to me is significant. at first blush we might think 20% more; but then we realize what small steps do to out musical reference points and satisfaction.

I hope this helps.

 

[Audiocrack]

switching the Troy Elite and the Troy Signature back and forth and back again (A-B-A) between the sources and the mono blocks was educational; as it allowed me to more easily identify what takes the Elite to the higher level.

it most definitely added a couple of steps more overall energy and authority to the presentation, and then images were more fully developed and three dimensional, vocals had more a sense of head, body and mouth of the singer with a 'real' presence, massed voices were more naturally delineated with better textures and finer detail, horns traded degrees of congestion for higher levels of clarity and touch, pianos more texture and a feeling of mass and even directionality of orientation......all that sort of stuff. large scale music got just more relaxed and the degree of ease increased and my own physical reaction to the large scale music was more involving and not as assaultive. not sure you can break down those perceptions of reality into neat categories......just an overall closer connection to the inner message of the music. maybe what the Elite did was allow the source gear to just dig deeper into the information and reduce distortion.

what is additive to the good stuff, and what is removing the bad stuff? maybe Miguel could explain this?

and possibly if I would have stepped through a longer process of adding one ground cable at a time and months of stepping up into the full realization of what the 2 Thor's on the sources did I might have more information.

the music moved out in all directions with the Elite; this was not the balloon affect where stuff is just made bigger and inflated; this is where the sense of space is expanded and the envelope of reality is larger. we do little things where we do get this sense of differences with different gear; sometimes cables or power grid related. with the Elite the degree of increase was beyond subtle. it was a poke in the nose greater.

my system was already quite sorted out and the imaging was already outstanding to my ears two weeks ago when I inserted the Elite. so the Elite was not fixing things broken, it was taking what was there and pushing it further.



this is a hard thing; but I will try. and i'm attempting to quantitate the degree of net change to the musical involvement......where 1% would be huge. I do think my system at present does allow for changes to be more easily perceived. a few years ago i'd say that my ability to notice differences was considerably less. lots of hard work applied to get the room and signal path out of the way of the musical message.

I've not had the Elite on the sources without the Troy Signature on the amps; but with that qualification I would say that the Elite on the sources added to the Troy Sig on the amps is taking the 'whole' 3% to 4% farther than with just the Troy Signature on the sources. this is big. and now this change with grounding the passive main speaker towers is another percent or so overall in degree of unveiled music.

stepping back and assessing the implications of a few percentage points higher overall performance to me is significant. at first blush we might think 20% more; but then we realize what small steps do to out musical reference points and satisfaction.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your quick reply Mike.

I asked you the last (tough) question for a reason of course: I think some of our members do not fully grasp the magnitude of what the Tripint Troy Elite is doing as regards a palpable/lifelike musical presentation, also in (but not limited to) a high quality audio system that seemed to be (more or less) sorted out.

I think your answer confirms what I have been posting on WBF for many years: the (Tripoint) boxes in general and the Troy elite in particular are top notch audio components that contribute significantly to the overall audio presentation and musical joy!

 

[Tango]

I've not had the Elite on the sources without the Troy Signature on the amps; but with that qualification I would say that the Elite on the sources added to the Troy Sig on the amps is taking the 'whole' 3% to 4% farther than with just the Troy Signature on the sources. this is big. and now this change with grounding the passive main speaker towers is another percent or so overall in degree of unveiled music.

Dear Mike,

The placement of our amps, main speakers and bass tower (in my case bass horns) is almost similar. Are you currently having the Elite for the Darts and the bass towers? And two Troys for the preamp, digitals and tt?

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Audiocrack]

Dear Mike,

The placement of our amps, main speakers and bass tower (in my case bass horns) is almost similar. Are you currently having the Elite for the Darts and the bass towers? And two Troys for the preamp, digitals and tt?

Kind regards,
Tang

If I understand him correctly it is the other way round: because the Troy elite is (so much) better than the Troy signature, the former is connected to the source components. It is: garbage in, garbage out. So the 'best box' on the sources yields the best endresult. Two Elites (so an additional one for the poweramps) will result in audio nirvana. And Mike employs one Troy signature.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Dear Mike,

The placement of our amps, main speakers and bass tower (in my case bass horns) is almost similar. Are you currently having the Elite for the Darts and the bass towers? And two Troys for the preamp, digitals and tt?

Kind regards,
Tang

If I understand him correctly it is the other way round: because the Troy elite is (so much) better than the Troy signature, the former is connected to the source components. It is: garbage, garbage out. So the 'best box' on the sources yield the best endresult. Two Elites (so an additional one for the poweramps) will result in audio nirvana. And Mike employs one Troy signature.

correct; my preferred result is with the Elite on the sources, and the Troy Signature on the amps, + now.......the main speaker towers too.

sources connected to Elite; 6 ground cables.

Thor SE (2)---MSB Select II, darTZeel preamp (which includes my 2 phono's)

4 Signature Silver standard ground cables---(1) SGM server, (1) left stainless tt arm board, (1) right stainless tt arm board, (1) tt power supply.

connected to the Troy Signature--4 standard Signature Silver ground cables.

(1) left dart 458, (1) right dart 458, (1) left main speaker tower, (1) right main speaker tower.

I suppose I agree with Rudolf that sources have the dominant position to yield the most significant result, based on my switching the Elite and the Troy Sig back and forth, and that was what Miguel predicted to me would happen (although he was cautious to try both ways for sure). but read further for an alternate viewpoint.

I am still experimenting with which duplex outlet it's best to plug in the power cord (with the dummy + and -) from both the Elite and Troy Sig. it will take some time as when I unplug it there is a 're-gen' period of ramp up and so I have to live with the change for awhile to get it.

all that said about where the Elite made the most difference.......i'll repeat a relevant point I made two weeks ago.......that moving the Troy Signature to just the amps (prior to when I tried it with the main speaker towers), from the sources, there was an increase in performance over the Troy Signature on the sources without the Elite in the system. and this is leaving the 2 Thor SE ground cables off the amps. how much better might the Troy Sig be on the amps with Thor SE's also in the mix like the sources had?

so not sure there is any absolute truth here, you have to try things and listen with an open mind. and any result with the Troy Signature, might not apply to the Elite.

 

[Audiocrack]

correct; my preferred result is with the Elite on the sources, and the Troy Signature on the amps, + now.......the main speaker towers too.

sources connected to Elite; 6 ground cables.

Thor SE (2)---MSB Select II, darTZeel preamp (which includes my 2 phono's)

4 Signature Silver standard ground cables---(1) SGM server, (1) left stainless tt arm board, (1) right stainless tt arm board, (1) tt power supply.

connected to the Troy Signature--4 standard Signature Silver ground cables.

(1) left dart 458, (1) right dart 458, (1) left main speaker tower, (1) right main speaker tower.

I suppose I agree with Rudolf that sources have the dominant position to yield the most significant result, based on my switching the Elite and the Troy Sig back and forth, and that was what Miguel predicted to me would happen (although he was cautious to try both ways for sure). but read further for an alternate viewpoint.

I am still experimenting with which duplex outlet it's best to plug in the power cord (with the dummy + and -) from both the Elite and Troy Sig. it will take some time as when I unplug it there is a 're-gen' period of ramp up and so I have to live with the change for awhile to get it.

all that said about where the Elite made the most difference.......i'll repeat a relevant point I made two weeks ago.......that moving the Troy Signature to just the amps (prior to when I tried it with the main speaker towers), from the sources, there was an increase in performance over the Troy Signature on the sources without the Elite in the system. and this is leaving the 2 Thor SE ground cables off the amps. how much better might the Troy Sig be on the amps with Thor SE's also in the mix like the sources had?

so not sure there is any absolute truth here, you have to try things and listen with an open mind. and any result with the Troy Signature, might not apply to the Elite.

Well, I am sure about the following ‘(absolute) truth’: adding a second Troy elite is going to rock your audio boat (even more).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well, I am sure about the following ‘(absolute) truth’: adding a second Troy elite is going to rock your audio boat (even more).

I have no doubt you are right. a second Elite is certainly high on my list. and 'Elite' performance is something you are no doubt discovering for yourself about now. i'll be watching for your reports.

 

[Tango]

I have no doubt you are right. a second Elite is certainly high on my list. and 'Elite' performance is something you are no doubt discovering for yourself about now. i'll be watching for your reports.

A second batch of Elites are coming to Asia in December. Let's see if destiny strikes .

Tang

 

[Audiocrack]

Heard the demo of tripoints emperor at AE show room 3 years ago . All Chris did was to remove the crocodile clip connected to tonearm bass & the whole soundstage collapsed. Demoed the original Tripoints signature in my room . I have Entreq , Telos . No comparison on the effect . However if u know what is inside Tripoints you may be reluctant to pay such hefty price for it even though the effect is mind boggling

I - respectfully - disagree with you as regards your last comment about what is inside the Tripoint boxes. The quality of the components/materials that are being employed inside Miguel's 'boxes', the way these components are being made and treated - or should I say: caressed - and finally how much time it costs Miguel to built these boxes - in a way you could say he is 'crazy' because the level of attention borders on 'the fanatic' - is mind boggling. And believe me that I am not saying this lightly because I have seen it myself what he is actually doing to be able to achieve the best possible (audio) results.