TT upgrade, about time...

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Maties, and greetings from down unda...
we're having a blast of all sorts of whether but mostly hot! Dry and sweaty... On some days it hits 42c then drops to 14c and tapers off to 21c. Definitely not good for audio, listening through tubes, the listening area gets hot.

Now that things have settled in nicely, with the power conditioning unit off to a side, monoblocks and preamp in perfect harmony driving the CLX's to full swing, I noticed a significant difference in overall "quality " in the analog when I tried out a Rega RP8. It was marvelous, and the increase in performance was profound competed to my current RP3.

The RP8 is definitely within reach, however I wanted to check here with the experts on what my final 5 TTs should be before deciding.
Note: all of these are within a certain price range, with few of them being much higher than the others, but nothing major:

1. Music Hall 11.1 ($5,200 superb value for this flagship model, very reasonable).
2. Michell Gyro deck ($10,000)
3. Linn Sondek LP12 ($10,000)
4. McIntosh MT5 or MT2 ($14,000 & $8,500).
5. Rega RP8 ($3,200)

Based on the above, I've heard all except the Music Hall. Not one dealer has any on demo, only the entry level series.

I'm quite keen on the MH since it is their top of the line and the price beats everything, it's unbelievable for that price mostly thanks to the Euro vs the AUD.
The other major factor to consider, so I was told, is that the Gyro deck & Linn require adjustments and aligning every year or so. Also on both decks the springs / suspension mechanism starts to waiver off after a while, again requiring further adjustments down the line...
Hence, for hassle free operation, the MH & Rega can't be beaten, simple set up and forget... No major complications with the deck and requires very little attention, if at all. This is definitely something I'm after and value highly.

The cartridge I'm using will be the same, Benz micro glider SM, with the Rega Aria phonostage. I'm not changing these two items as yet.

Therefore, having these two things in place, and the list as above, what are your thoughts / suggestions? Should I also consider any other brands? And if so at what price range are we talking about? Is the MH 11.1 any good? Anyone have direct experience with this TT and if so, what are your thoughts?

Eagerly waiting for your replies, and would appreciate it if someone could also advise the best possible path to proceed towards an upgrade, from currently having a RP3, what's the more appropriate move to consider?

Cheers, RJ

 

[DaveyF]

IMO, the move/choice would be easy...although naturally it is dependent on budget. The Linn LP12 offers you an upgrade path that the others do not.
The new Rega 8 is an excellent table, but I think it would still come off second to a full LP12 Klimax.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Wow! That was quick! Thanks for your reply Davey.

I had a feeling it would be the Linn. I'm going to the dealers place tomorrow to check it out but from what I gather, they start around 10 grand upwards to 15grand and above. Although this will probably be my final TT, I just want to make the right choice.

A few questions though :
1. What about all those adjustments required after a while on the Linn?

2. Is the Music Hall 11.1 any better, being their top of the line?

3. Are the McIntosh TTs any good? Compared with these

RJ

 

[audio.bill]

A couple of points you should be aware of...

Music Hall tables are built to their spec by Pro-Ject, and you can see many similarities between their designs particularly in the tonearms. This isn't a bad thing, as MH is able to save a significant amount of money in having them manufactured by an established OEM rather than producing themselves. This does help them achieve a higher value than would otherwise be possible.

Rega makes a fine product but is least flexible in supporting cartridges other than their own, requiring the use of spacers under the arm if you wish to install another brand of cartridge which is taller than Rega's standard and requires any adjustment in VTA. The Rega RP8 was well thought of but has recently been replaced with an all new Planar 8 which is supposed to be a significant upgrade in performance at similar pricing. It is a very minimalist table without a conventional plinth, being an extremely low mass design. It has a unique appearance which some like the simplicity of and others may not care for cosmetically.

I would suggest trying to check out these choices in person to see how you feel about each as far as their appearance, flexibility, operation, and ultimately their sonic performance. Each will offer different trade-offs which should be considered depending upon your specific needs. Hope this helps!

 

[mulveling]

First I'd consider what this table will be placed on top of. Do you have a great rigid support AND isolation (e.g. HRS or CMS platform for the isolation part) for the turntable, or are you willing to factor that into the budget? Are your floors bouncy? If you won't have great stuff under the table, I'd stick with suspended decks. SOTA makes some really nice underrated suspended tables; a Nova or Cosmos with a good arm would fit your budget - plus they're close to releasing a new series this year, with some pretty big improvements. If you'll have have great support under the table, your options open up more. Clearaudio Ovation with a Universal or Tracer arm is nice in that range.

Five years ago I upgraded from an old SOTA Star to a Clearaudio Innovation Wood, placing it on the same low-grade Lovan rack on a very *slightly* bouncy wood floor (old-world commercial building, not nearly as bad as most modern residences). In retrospect, that introduced some significant problems despite the very nice turntable upgrade. The old SOTA's suspension had been covering for a lot of issues. And filling the cheap rack's legs with lead-shot didn't help much either. Later I upgraded to a CMS Maxxum rack, which fixed all the problems spectacularly.

The Michell and Linn are suspended too (I think), which makes them also good options if you need to go that route.

 

[daytona600]

Gyro & LP12 are decades old design , others made by OEMs , Rega are nice decks
Out next month 21st century radical thinking on a £2,000 entry level turntable
New " Baby " of the range without the 6 figure price ticket





We are delighted to announce the world debut of the new Vertere Dynamic -Groove Record Player.

The D-Groove has been in design and development for over three years
At the heart of this amazing record player is the new Motor Drive, directly derived from our Reference RG-1 Motor Drive circuit. The RG-1 was introduced in July 2018 and revolutionised record player motor control and performance.

Utilising the exact Motor incorporated in our MG-1, SG-1 & RG-1 ‘Groovie’ Players and controlled by the unique new Motor Drive circuit has provided this entry level record player with a performance second to none.Combined with a super precision bearing, platter, pulley and a new exceptional design tonearm, the D-Groove boasts performance that is way beyond its class.

Add to this aesthetics to die for and we have a record player which will do justice to any vinyl spun on it.

 

[TooCool4]

The LP12 is very fussy with regards to setup and needs to be just right to sound it’s best. A friend of mine has an LP12 and even marks the inner and outer platter for best sound, if he removes the platter he put’s it back to same location for best sound.

I personally would not pick a Linn, over rated. If you have Roksan in Australia check out the Xerxes head and shoulders better than an LP12.

But my best advice for you is take your records and go and listen to the record players for yourself and pick the best sounding to your ears, as you are the one that will have to live with it.

Good luck, happy hunting.

 

[DaveyF]

The LP12 certainly is an old design, and that is precisely why I think the current and latest version of it is so excellent. The upgrades that Linn have engineered for the table have allowed it to keep up with ( and IME surpass)what the competitors are bringing to the market. As an example, the top of the line Radikal D power supply incorporates a superb low noise DC motor, along with exact speed control that, imho, surpasses most other speed control devices I have heard.....certainly at anywhere near the price asked.
The overall Linn LP12 platform can, again imo, easily better many other tables that get one thing or another right, but don’t take into consideration all of the aspects that the Linn engineers have worked on for all these years.To my ears, the proof is...as they say, in the pudding. Listen for yourself to a well set up LP12 Radikal Klimax, and I think the answer to your OP becomes very obvious.

Oh, all the rumors about the table falling out of tune etc., are just that...rumors, spread by either the competition, or folks who have never owned a properly set up Linn. The forums are littered with folks who have opinions on this table, more than just about any other piece of gear...only problem I have with them, is that they really have never experienced one of the Linn LP12 tables correctly set up in the first place; or...and this is more common, haven’t heard the table in decades, but still are happy to put in their 2cents.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I see all these points and makes perfect sense. Looks like I'm still learning in regards to TT's for sure.

My very good trusted mate, Mr Kostas, who was the one who got me transfixed into the CLX's, has a Linn. I think it is the LP12, with the Ortofon Candenza Black cart, and used with separate power supply unit, with an Alnic phonostage (tube phonostage). Sounds superb!

I was thinking about the Linn very seriously until the Music Hall 11.1 top of the line landed here for far less. Linn varies in pricing but I think I can get hold of one for around 5grand, which is about the same as the MH. They say either of these would accept my Benz Glider very easily, no issues there and will sound great with the Aria. So I'm considering this seriously...

What about the Mac TT's are they any good? Can they compete with the top end stuff from Linn or Rega, or is it all cosmetics?
The Mac brand here has a lot of margin, and when taking into consideration currency conversion, the final price is way over the top. Nearly twice the amount from USD to AUD, that's something I don't want to engage in, I don't see the justification in such prices.

I've never heard of D-Groove and I haven't listened to a Roksan in ages, I think I might have to do some venturing around to investigate these TT's.

Thanks for the replies mates, much appreciated.
Now I'm a bit confused...
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

So if I'm correct from the feedback / suggestions received so far, my list should be as follows:

1. Linn
2. D-Groove
3. Roksan
4. Rega RP8
5. Gyro Deck
6. Mac

Am I missing anything here or have I got the order wrong?
Just a bit of direction would help, cheers
RJ

*Note* The floor is solid timber boards with concrete under. At our new house, solid concrete with ceramic tiles on top, no timber or boards. TT is located on top shelf of "Solid Steel" rack, which is the brand. Rests on four spikes into the carpet. The TT then rest on an isolated platform called the Auralex Isotone platform, which is then further isolated by three Nordost Sort Kones.

So looking at it from the front: TT sits on 3 Nordost Sort Kones, which sits on the Auralex platform, which is placed on the Solid Steel audio rack, that's about it!

 

[mulveling]

Clearaudio builds the McIntosh tables to their specifications. Personally I'd stick with Clearaudio's own "concept" of the best tables they can design at the various price-points via their own lines - they've been building tables for decades. And certainly it can't help to add another high-margin company to the pricing chain. Plus Clearudio's top technologies (e.g. Panzerholz plinths) and evolutions don't seem to make it into the Mc-branded tables.

 

[KostasP.]

An endorsement.

Without intending to criticise, let alone denigrate any of the turntables mentioned, I fully agree and endorse DaveyF's comments, based on my direct experience. The current fully specked Linn LP12 is the replacement of my previous Linn, which I had since my diving into this High ( DEEP is more apt ) End hobby of ours. In choosing my latest Linn, I had auditioned four turntables but extrapolations are inconclusive and mischievous due to so many variables. Ultimately, I lived with two for a while and gravitated to the Linn without hesitation.

The tonearm is another integral component that should not be neglected. I am using the SME Series V arm and three cartridges ( Ortofon Cadenza Black, Koetsu Black and Denon 304 ).

Cheers, Kostas.

 

[DaveyF]

So if I'm correct from the feedback / suggestions received so far, my list should be as follows:

1. Linn
2. D-Groove
3. Roksan
4. Rega RP8
5. Gyro Deck
6. Mac

Am I missing anything here or have I got the order wrong?
Just a bit of direction would help, cheers
RJ

*Note* The floor is solid timber boards with concrete under. At our new house, solid concrete with ceramic tiles on top, no timber or boards. TT is located on top shelf of "Solid Steel" rack, which is the brand. Rests on four spikes into the carpet. The TT then rest on an isolated platform called the Auralex Isotone platform, which is then further isolated by three Nordost Sort Kones.

So looking at it from the front: TT sits on 3 Nordost Sort Kones, which sits on the Auralex platform, which is placed on the Solid Steel audio rack, that's about it!

I think an audition of the tables with your choice of music should be a definite prequalification to your final descision.

All of the tables have their pluses and their minuses...like all gear IME.
( yes even the Linn, and I say this as a Linnie!).
One thing to consider is where you want to end up...if you want the option of multiple arms, then probably none of the tables mentioned so far would be ideal..
The LP12 with Trampolin base alleviates the need to consider placing the table on any type of isolation. OTOH, if you want to use a heavier arm, and one that can therefore support a heavier cartridge ( which your current Benz certainly is not) then a table that can utilize a heavy arm is warranted....and again the Linn is eliminated.
If you want the option of being able to upgrade to a turntable that is far superior than the base models ( which are mostly what you have listed above), then the Linn is the only option that allows for this...at a price.
I have heard all of the choices you are contemplating in your OP, with the exception of the brand new Rega8...which I am certain for the money will be unbeatable. None of them, including the McIntosh tables, the Clearaudio’s mentioned above or the Roksan hold candle to a full spec LP12 Klimax. I have not heard the D-Groove, but the fact that nothing is mentioned about precise DC speed control would make me think it too wouldn’t compete.
If, or when you hear the Linn, please be sure to try and hear it with the Radikal D power supply and the Kore/Keel sub chassis. The Linn Magik entry level is the starting point, but it truly is an entry level product ...and not to be confused with what you get with the Klimax/Radikal D.

Thanks for the endorsement Kostas P, although I am more than surprised that you are using an SME V Arm??

 

[KostasP.]

DaveyF,

Isn't thIs the hobby of surprises? On my first Linn, I had a Dynavector 505, albeit with heavy duty springs and other "manipulations" by the Linn "legend" Graham Rodwell.

Be well, Kostas.

 

[TooCool4]

Now I'm a bit confused...

My suggestion which I said before and I’ll say it again is, take what everybody says with a pinch of salt. Take your records and go and have a listen to the turntables yourself, pick the one you like the best as it’s your money and it’s you that has to live with it.

Good luck

 

[DaveyF]

Kostas, what surprises me is that the dear fruit box works with the SME V to your satisfaction. Many have tried this combo, and from I understand none have liked it. Have you changed your suspension to somehow accommodate the heavier weight of the SME?
BTW, I would certainly agree that the Linn Ekos SE can be bettered, and that the SME V is a better arm than the Ekos SE, particularly in the bass reproduction, but on the old fruit box

 

[Ron Resnick]

So if I'm correct from the feedback / suggestions received so far, my list should be as follows:

1. Linn
2. D-Groove
3. Roksan
4. Rega RP8
5. Gyro Deck
6. Mac

Am I missing anything here or have I got the order wrong?
Just a bit of direction would help, cheers
RJ

*Note* The floor is solid timber boards with concrete under. At our new house, solid concrete with ceramic tiles on top, no timber or boards. TT is located on top shelf of "Solid Steel" rack, which is the brand. Rests on four spikes into the carpet. The TT then rest on an isolated platform called the Auralex Isotone platform, which is then further isolated by three Nordost Sort Kones.

So looking at it from the front: TT sits on 3 Nordost Sort Kones, which sits on the Auralex platform, which is placed on the Solid Steel audio rack, that's about it!

Hi Big Woof!

I don’t recommend used components for every type of component, but turntables I think are relatively safe because they either work or they don’t work (if the speed is accurate). I purchased my first turntable used.

I’d love to see you get a $25,000 or $30,000 turntable for the same $10,000 or $15,000 you’re contemplating for a new one.

For your list of new turntables I would add the top of the line Dr. Feickert. I think that’s a very good-sounding basic turntable.

 

[bonzo75]

I think the best you can get for your budget is a schopper restored 124 used with fr64s arm. You can get the combo for 5k GBP used, with special power supply. I found this better than two Garrards, 401 and 301 (the latter being the top UK restore from audio grail, my friend who owns it likes it better too and preferred it to his Shindo Garrard, Brinkmann Lagrange, and SME 30/2. With the brinkmann he had a Da Vinci grandezza arm

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Many thanks gentlemen for the sincere advise. Now things are slowly beginning to make more sense. It definitely looks like I need to spend more time researching this area, and arriving at a possible short list of at least three TT's rather than five.

Listening to them at the dealer's play is ok with their LP's I really don't mind. I generally don't like to take my LP's anywhere for certain reasons...

The Dr F TT mentioned by Ron is outstanding no doubt, however this is way beyond my budget. Like I said, I don't feel comfortable spending anything more than 10 grand, and there are some on the list that are far less than that, which can perform remarkably well, such as the RP8 or RP10.

Initially I was thinking of settling for the RP8 and calling it a day. Now I just learned that it has been replaced by the Planar 8. Ok, I'll need to investigate this. I was also thinking about the whole "Rega" thing; if I upgraded to a RP8, I'm really not upgrading, rather going in circles with the Rega sound that's probably not going to get any better, it's just Rega. I may be wrong but I need to probably try something different, I don't know.

By the responses received so far, it clearly seems that the Linn or a VPI would be excellent but I'm just wondering for a fraction of the cost if I would be better off with the Planar 8? Also price point fits in perfectly, I can save heaps and still keep the good wife happy!
I'll take all your points into consideration and try out a few more combo's.

Cheers and many thanks,
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I think the best you can get for your budget is a schopper restored 124 used with fr64s arm. You can get the combo for 5k GBP used, with special power supply. I found this better than two Garrards, 401 and 301 (the latter being the top UK restore from audio grail, my friend who owns it likes it better too and preferred it to his Shindo Garrard, Brinkmann Lagrange, and SME 30/2. With the brinkmann he had a Da Vinci grandezza arm

Bonzo,

What's this TT? is Schopper 124 the brand/model of the TT? Not too sure whether this is available in Aus mate...
RJ