Tube gear obsolete??
- Thread starter DaveyF
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Dear Steve Williams: ++++ " I appreciate your zeal in trying to convert everyone ... " ++++
I already answered that, please let me know which words on the next statement you did not understood?:
" I'm not trying to convince everyone ". I don't care about everyone preferences, those are each one privilege.. I'm stating a non-related preference opinion and facts.
regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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My friend Raul,
You make a classic mistake in logic...you are assuming that the closer the adherence to the RIAA curve, the better the phono preamp. I think we all (well most, it is an audio forum) would agree the RIAA adherence is important, but I have yet to see objective proof that it is the most important objective measurement amongst the myriad of other parameters that go into making a good phono preamp. Like many arguments in audio, RIAA adherence lends itself to such arguments because it is readily measured (as compared to other important parameters). Indeed, a fanatical focus on a limited set of measurements may lead to a false sense of security, as numbers can sometimes result in a false sense of precison (i.e. the tryanny of numbers). Please note, I'm not dismissing the possibility that your phono stage is extremely good or even 'the best'. I can't comment until I've heard it myself.
As long as we are kicking around well-worn sayings, it is well to remember that "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they are not entitled to their facts." Raul, if I may give you some unsolicited advice (which is probably worth what you are paying for); when you post a strongly held opinion as 'fact' it is just that, a strongly held opinion. Repeating said strongly held opinion ad naseum does not make it a fact. Indeed it oft times distracts from the potentially useful opinion you are trying to express. A fact is verifiable and immutable. That is, until we discover a new fact that offers a better explanation for the phenomena we are attempting to explain. It is good to remember that not all facts lend themselves to measurement. It is an immutable fact that I love my wife and kids, but definitely difficult to come up with a reliable measurement explaining it.
Please do not take this post to mean that I am some sort of a Ludditte who disdains measurements. I just believe that at the current time, the measurements commonly in use do not adequately decribe or reliably convey a hierchy of audio quality. Everyone operates along a continuum of objective and subjective factors. For example, price is usually an extremely important objective measurement which influences our subjective evaluations. Even dyed-in-the-wool 'objectivists' must utilize subjective critieria or else they would all own the same equipment at each price point.
So instead of endlessly arguing, I propose that we celebrate diversity and embrace our differences by accepting that we are all individuals who approach our passion armed with a few objective criteria admixed with a personal set of subjective biases. Can't we all just get along?
Dear jazdoc: Where said I that? a mistake for your part to assume it. What I posted was this:
+++++++ Why are important/critical those RIAA deviation measurements?:
the main reason why exist and why we need a Phono Stage is because the recorded audio signal comes with a de-emphasis RIAA equalization and trhough the PS that audio signal has to pass for the inverse proccess: a inverse RIAA equalization to achieve again a dead flat frequency. This is the main reason for the PS existence, then comes other as the gain, low noise, imoedance loading facilities and the like. +++++++++++++
Btw, I celebrate diversity because with out it we can't learn, improve and grow-up.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Like all stories, there are two sides. Whether you like it or not, Raul has a point with tube amplifiers. There is no way that tube amps strapped to an output transformer are ever going to measure as well on the bench as a competently designed SS amp. You can say you don't like those measurements, you can say those measurements don't really matter, but it doesn't change the actual facts no matter how inconvenient they are to your belief system. I have personally owned many tube amps over the years and what the measurements tell you that you should hear never bothered me for the most part. I never felt one part of the frequency response was out of whack compared to another part except for the bass. I do believe that modern tube amps are performing better in the bottom octaves than they used to, and I think the KT-120 tube deserves some of that credit along with big, beefy power supplies. The ARC VS115 was a real ear-opener in that regard for me.
Whether you choose to love SS or tube amps is a preference. Because it's your preference doesn't make you *right* no matter which choice you make. You can argue until you are blue in the face that tube amps sound better than SS, but you certainly can't argue they come close to measuring as good as SS amps do and some tube amps will have some wild frequency response aberrations depending on the speaker they are used with. Some speakers have a very benign impedance load and make for a relatively easy load for a tube amp to drive. Some speakers simply can't be driven by tube amps, or they certainly can't be driven very well.
Well designed tube line stages are another matter and can measure as well as many SS designs. The problem with tube line stages is that your S/N ratio is dependent upon the quality of your tubes and the quality of your tubes will change over their life. They can be super quiet today and noisy tomorrow-it's the nature of the beast. Trying to use a low output MC cartridge with an all tube phono stage is fine as long as you like noise. Asking tubes to amplify a signal that is 230 millionths of a volt at their input is causing the tube to amplify a signal that is in its noise floor. Once that noise is added to your signal in the phono stage, it's going to ride all the way through the rest of your gain stages right to your speakers.
The problem with Raul is that he comes across as a preacher trying to make you give up your evil tube ways and repent and that attitude is obviously resented by many.
Whether you choose to love SS or tube amps is a preference. Because it's your preference doesn't make you *right* no matter which choice you make. You can argue until you are blue in the face that tube amps sound better than SS, but you certainly can't argue they come close to measuring as good as SS amps do and some tube amps will have some wild frequency response aberrations depending on the speaker they are used with. Some speakers have a very benign impedance load and make for a relatively easy load for a tube amp to drive. Some speakers simply can't be driven by tube amps, or they certainly can't be driven very well.
Well designed tube line stages are another matter and can measure as well as many SS designs. The problem with tube line stages is that your S/N ratio is dependent upon the quality of your tubes and the quality of your tubes will change over their life. They can be super quiet today and noisy tomorrow-it's the nature of the beast. Trying to use a low output MC cartridge with an all tube phono stage is fine as long as you like noise. Asking tubes to amplify a signal that is 230 millionths of a volt at their input is causing the tube to amplify a signal that is in its noise floor. Once that noise is added to your signal in the phono stage, it's going to ride all the way through the rest of your gain stages right to your speakers.
The problem with Raul is that he comes across as a preacher trying to make you give up your evil tube ways and repent and that attitude is obviously resented by many.
I don't post much, more of a reader/lurker
guess this makes me Evil and a non repenter....
I still own SS, but have gone to the other side.
"In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU"
guess this makes me Evil and a non repenter....
I still own SS, but have gone to the other side.
"In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU"
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I don't post much, more of a reader/lurker
guess this makes me Evil and a non repenter....
I still own SS, but have gone to the other side.
"In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU"
Precisely the point. It's all about your preference.
I prefer tubes, and not because they glow oh-so-pretty but because to my ears they get me a lot closer to presenting music in a more believable manner. I don't think it's the colorizations/harmonics so much as it's the body that it brings to soundstage. With SS I might listen to a sax that sounds beautifully clean and tonally accurate, but at the same time it sounds thin and never sounds like the musician is in front of me. How much that is synergy between speakers and electronics I don't know, but that's been my experience - or rather my perception.
I do agree that there are trade-offs that come with tubes (maintenance, dealing with noisy tubes, some amount of unwanted distortion) and I do suspect that modern versions that are hybrids may be better, but when I listen I want to feel close to the music and nothing sounds as close to a live performance to me than certain tube systems.
I don't think that ANY tube system does this, by the way (many color the tone in a way that bothers me) but some do a great job.
And the 3D presentation that they can bring to the table is a nice bonus.
I do agree that there are trade-offs that come with tubes (maintenance, dealing with noisy tubes, some amount of unwanted distortion) and I do suspect that modern versions that are hybrids may be better, but when I listen I want to feel close to the music and nothing sounds as close to a live performance to me than certain tube systems.
I don't think that ANY tube system does this, by the way (many color the tone in a way that bothers me) but some do a great job.
And the 3D presentation that they can bring to the table is a nice bonus.
It has been known for long that some of the best microphones were and still are tube microphones. Happily, as they are used in the recording phase, people can simply say that artists and sound engineers use them because they manage to fulfill better the artist intentions and creative efforts, and are not requested to prove with measurements that it was the best for this purpose. But I do not have doubts that behind this justification there as technical undocumented aspects. Perhaps we can learn a lot from this people.
See for example this marketing comment about a usd 6k microphone:
The VM1 was the fulfillment of Dirk Brauner’s dream to build his vision of the perfect sounding tube microphone. A microphone that captures the spirit of the classic vintage tube microphones and at the same time, meets the high technical standards of today’s modern microphones. The VM1 was awarded the SSAIR Award in 1998, marking the beginning of a tradition of excellence in design philosophy, engineering and precision.
In our humble opinion, no other microphone has played a greater role in the renaissance of the tube microphone. As the archetype of all Brauner microphones it continues to serve as the inspiration for all Brauner products. The VM1 has a completely natural, modern sound with the highest resolution of sonic detail. Its transparent open character is predestined for vocal and instrumental recordings and is the first choice microphone of top artists and sound engineers all over the world.
http://www.soundpure.com/p/brauner-vm1-tube-microphone/91;jsessionid=5B20075EF85C501177AF7216622581B1
See for example this marketing comment about a usd 6k microphone:
The VM1 was the fulfillment of Dirk Brauner’s dream to build his vision of the perfect sounding tube microphone. A microphone that captures the spirit of the classic vintage tube microphones and at the same time, meets the high technical standards of today’s modern microphones. The VM1 was awarded the SSAIR Award in 1998, marking the beginning of a tradition of excellence in design philosophy, engineering and precision.
In our humble opinion, no other microphone has played a greater role in the renaissance of the tube microphone. As the archetype of all Brauner microphones it continues to serve as the inspiration for all Brauner products. The VM1 has a completely natural, modern sound with the highest resolution of sonic detail. Its transparent open character is predestined for vocal and instrumental recordings and is the first choice microphone of top artists and sound engineers all over the world.
http://www.soundpure.com/p/brauner-vm1-tube-microphone/91;jsessionid=5B20075EF85C501177AF7216622581B1
Francisco-That sounds like a bunch of marketing hype. And I'm not saying that it is or isn't a great microphone, it just sounds like the usual marketing drivel you read from companies that gush over their products. Personally, I have not heard of the VM1 before.
Dear friends: Redaing again some of the posts here I found that I gave you an objective answer to your questions and when I questioned almost all of you gave no single objective answer but even non-related answers. Some of you ( seems to me. ) were looking where I made it a mistake to post about instead to put some " light " in the main subject.
One of you posted that if there were something new on the subject and I gave him an answer about and like some of you: dead silence on that post.
So, what's all about?, IMHO no one of you posted any single objective/fact argument in favor of tubes ( even trying to support tubes because are used in microphones thinking is the same that works with speakers. ) against and this is a frustration for all of you but you are not the culprit why you don't have any single objective argument in favor of tubes because : does not exist, there is no " scientific " arguments about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
One of you posted that if there were something new on the subject and I gave him an answer about and like some of you: dead silence on that post.
So, what's all about?, IMHO no one of you posted any single objective/fact argument in favor of tubes ( even trying to support tubes because are used in microphones thinking is the same that works with speakers. ) against and this is a frustration for all of you but you are not the culprit why you don't have any single objective argument in favor of tubes because : does not exist, there is no " scientific " arguments about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Raul
plain and simple, it's called "preference". There is no argument. It is what we like
Unless you understand this I am going to ask you to move on as you are now trolling.
" preference ", really? because I was thinking that the the subject was : right or wrong and why: why we heard what we heard.
R.
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Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Actually the OP was "Tube gear obsolete??"
you've made your points. We've made ours. It's our preference. Now move on
you've made your points. We've made ours. It's our preference. Now move on
Or perhaps start a thread "Solid state amplifiers that heat a lot obsolete??"
Raul, Out of curiousity have you heard no tube gear that you thought was good subjectively and/or objectively? How many pieces of quality tube gear have you had in your own system?
Your speakers are probably not tube amp friendly and this is something not really touched on in this thread. If the speaker is designed with a tube amp in mind then it will not have frequency response problems when used with one. If tube gear is used wisely there will be no FR or noise issues if of good design. Sure if tube gear is used with the wrong partnering eq or asked to make too much gain it will have problems. So IMO it can be right or wrong depending on how it is designed and used. This does make it harder for the average consumer to get good results unless they educate themselves first.
Sean
Dear Audioarcher: ++++ " If the speaker is designed with a tube amp in mind then it will not have frequency response problems when used with one. "++++
your statement remember me the advatages with active speakers/subs where the amplifiers were designed to fulfill the speaker drivers needs: woofer, mid range and tweeter on several areas like: driver electrical impedance curve, driver frequency response, THD/IMD driver levels, power handling on each driver, etc, etc.
Unfortunatelly the amp tube output impedance is always so high that does not permit to fulfill the eelctrical speaker/drivers impedance curve and is impossible to meet your statment, here you can see examples how it works that impedance characterisitc and why I stated that a tube amp is an out of control graphic equalizer:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/jadis-se300b-monoblock-amplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/allnic-audio-5000-dht-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/octave-audio-re-290-power-amplifier-measurements
I celebrate that you are the first gentleman to come here and speak on what is: right or wrong and not because that " dead preference " other said.
+++++ " This does make it harder for the average consumer to get good results unless they educate themselves first. " ++++
not only for the average consumer but for any one non-educated.
Almost all the other persons posted here were disturbed by my posts but you understand very well what's all about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
I have one of those. One of these days there will be such a thing as the Green Police. The Green Police will be in charge of monitoring how much electricity you use. If your electricity usage is way higher than your neighbors with a similar sized house, the Green Police will demand an inspection and all Class "A" amps will be confiscated and destroyed.
Tell you how to easily prove that tube gear is far from obsolete. List all currently available solid-state tube amplifiers in one column and all tube based amplifiers in the other column; repeat for preamlifiers. Guarantee you that 1/2 of the total are tube products. Same (because I counted them by hand back then) for when Audio magazine last published their Annual Equipment Guide. 1/2 of all amps and preamps listed at that time were tube units. As nothing has changed over the intervening what 20 years, how can tube products be marching into the sunset? The only area where I can see the use of tubes shrinking seems to be in DACs.
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