Tube gear obsolete??

[andromedaaudio]

Sure i agree , although i unfortunately have very limited expirience with professional room acoustics .
Amps and sources do also matter off course , but in my opinion also the quickest /biggest accuracy gain is loudspeakers

This plus the room IMO

 

[DaveyF]

And if I repeat it a million times--no matter how ridiculous--it becomes fact.

Raul just loves arguing for the sake of arguing. The whole world is wrong and he is right. Talk about battling windmills.

+1.
Surely we should NOT be concerned about how a piece of gear measures ONLY in how it sounds. IIR, the Halcro amps measured like nothing before...anyone here want to tell me these sound great ( OK, I know Raul will, LOL)
BTW, Raul are you still using those large ADS speakers that I see in your A'gon thread?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I will i like them , they re still on my try list , whenever i finish the XPE model , i might give them a try , first i have to expirience how they work with +- 8 watts
Boulder measures great as well , and sounds just like it , like a swiss clock

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Ron: A pleasure to meet you again.

+++++ " The recording is all that we have and is what the talent (i.e., the musicians, mastering engineer, etc.) has given to us and through our each one talent to preserve it!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

No Raul, I have never said so. I was commenting your finding that .012 db is much better than .1 dB but just found that your argumentation is almost exclusively based in "please do not tell me that (and you write here some stupidity that I have not said) " and repetition.

Please enjoy your accuracy - I am out before the next " Please do not tell me ..."

Dear Microstrip: Certanly you did not post in that way, was and is me who infer about. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Now, what's wrong with that 0.12db? did you prefer or feel better with that 0.1db? and if yes: could you explain why? had you any single opportunity to hear that kind of PS accuracy? no?, well: what a experience!!!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

And if I repeat it a million times--no matter how ridiculous--it becomes fact.

Raul just loves arguing for the sake of arguing. The whole world is wrong and he is right. Talk about battling windmills.

Dear MylesBastor: No, that's not the reason and your problem is that you can't understand whay and the real meaning of my posts: that's the problem with you and other gentlemans.

Btw, I never said I'm right and you are wrong, I'm only try to post some facts that for what you and other posted are unaware of it and again: this is the real trouble with. I post here nothing new but at the same time I'm posting " things " no one like to read it. We don't like that suddenly our " clothe " disappear and stayed " naked " but changing of " clothes " could help to improve or at least to make real concience on what is what we " are liking ".

Certainly you can go on living in your audio " fantasy " and as you know fantasy is only that. Things are that I love to live the reality and not wrong and not founded illusions.

You are an important pat of the AHEE ( we are too. ) and all these gentlemans that " die for tubes " were and are victims of that " corrupted " AHEE.

Please let us know reasons/facts why in this 21 century we have to hear MUSIC through tube electronics. I don't want comparisons ( or that " I like it " ) with other aternatives but facts why tubes is the way to go why I have to use tubes on phono stages or amps? why ? why ? why ?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[Steve Williams]

I guess I can summarize my feelings to the OP. Contrary to what Raul says tubes will only become a thing of the past when they are no longer available. If that's what you mean by AHEE I will wear my badge proudly. This debate is so damn old that it does nothing except rehash the same things by the same people equally on both sides that all it does is evoke the same answers from the same people

Does anyone have anything new to convince either side otherwise. I read the same posts here as well as at Audiogon. I confess. Brand me AHEE

This thread is a perfect example if one camp pelting the other with their postulates. Ill be the first to admit that I have SS. I also have tubes.

Raul , can you hear and understand about preferences because if so you will understand that I love tubes more no matter what you say. Color me AHEE.

So who has something new to add

 

[DaveyF]

I guess I can summarize my feelings to the OP. Contrary to what Raul says tubes will only become a thing of the past when they are no longer available.

:

Or when ss is so advanced that all listener's will have no further need for tubes. Everything that tubes offer us and more ( Nobody disagreeing with the statement. Like today everyone agreeing that RtoR sounds better than cassette ( at least I think that is a universal ) ).Is that possible....IMO, we're unfortunately NOT close to that day, BUT in the future??
Unfortunately, I suspect that tubes becoming unavailable may arrive sooner!

 

[Steve Williams]

Look

I appreciate everyone telling me about colorization and everything else wrong with tubes. Great. You're preaching to the choir because I don't disagree. I JUST LIKE TUBES BETTER.Color me AHEE. It's all about choice and preference. This is mine. Ill wear the badge proudly.

 

[c1ferrari]

I simply have to stop laughing before I fall out of my chair. At least when Raul dishes out a beat-down to you, he ends your beating with "Regards and enjoy the music." I can't stop laughing, I swear.

Haha, Mark

 

[silviajulieta]

its always interesting to me that if you listen to a boom box and then right next to it play the same song on a decent stereo then everyone agrees that the stereo sounds better, and this is because its more accurate. but at some point, accuracy in hi-end becomes a dirty word, perhaps the AHEE (audio high end establishement) has pursuaded many that accuracy and music are not the same thing somehow. Of course, whats really at play, at the bottom of al this, is simply preference.

Dear Tomelex: Yes, at the end all is about prefrences. The main difference isto have facts why I like SS or tube or whatever other than that plain: " I like it ".

Tell me: do you think that you will cross the Pacific Ocean swimming just because you like to swim? or do any one " change " his wife because just " like it " more the wife's sister?

I don't think those can happen " just for fun " and does not happen because is WRONG.

I'm not talking or argueing on what are my or any one else preferences, I only give my opinion on what's could be right or wrong. My opinion is not biased by preferences.

I have very clear that almost all gentlemans here posted because preferennces but that's not the subject. Steve said: nothing new here, well he can't see it because can't understand the main subject. He is talking of rice and I'm talking of cars.

Yes, there are some gentlemans here that already understand my main subject and it does not matters if agree with or not but to understand it. Did you?

M.Bastor said I argue becauese I just like it and no I argue because I love to learn.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[Steve Williams]

Dear Tomelex: Yes, at the end all is about prefrences. The main difference isto have facts why I like SS or tube or whatever other than that plain: " I like it ".

Tell me: do you think that you will cross the Pacific Ocean swimming just because you like to swim? or do any one " change " his wife because just " like it " more the wife's sister?

I don't think those can happen " just for fun " and does not happen because is WRONG.

I'm not talking or argueing on what are my or any one else preferences, I only give my opinion on what's could be right or wrong. My opinion is not biased by preferences.

I have very clear that almost all gentlemans here posted because preferennces but that's not the subject. Steve said: nothing new here, well he can't see it because can't understand the main subject. He is talking of rice and I'm talking of cars.

Yes, there are some gentlemans here that already understand my main subject and it does not matters if agree with or not but to understand it. Did you?

M.Bastor said I argue becauese I just like it and no I argue because I love to learn.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I totally give up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

 

[silviajulieta]

I guess I can summarize my feelings to the OP. Contrary to what Raul says tubes will only become a thing of the past when they are no longer available. If that's what you mean by AHEE I will wear my badge proudly. This debate is so damn old that it does nothing except rehash the same things by the same people equally on both sides that all it does is evoke the same answers from the same people

Does anyone have anything new to convince either side otherwise. I read the same posts here as well as at Audiogon. I confess. Brand me AHEE

This thread is a perfect example if one camp pelting the other with their postulates. Ill be the first to admit that I have SS. I also have tubes.

Raul , can you hear and understand about preferences because if so you will understand that I love tubes more no matter what you say. Color me AHEE.

So who has something new to add

Dear Steve Williams: Something new?, unfortunatelly " there is nothing new below the sun " especially when we don't want to see it. Can you make a test from your self with your system where only the speakers stay?:

forgeret you are a tube dealer, forgeret all what you learned through the AHEE and forgeret about those preferences: can you do it? are you willing to do it?

yes?, good.

Choose decent SS electronics, cables, source where all these audio links been matched and fine tunned inside the system and then connect to your speakers. Listen exclusively to this new audio system for one month and after this NEW experience switch to your today audio system links and that same day that you switched come here and share your experience through the tube electronics.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I totally give up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I prefer you can bring a lawyer to court but you can't make them tell the truth

 

[DaveyF]

Dear Tomelex: Yes, at the end all is about prefrences. The main difference isto have facts why I like SS or tube or whatever other than that plain: " I like it ".

Tell me: do you think that you will cross the Pacific Ocean swimming just because you like to swim? or do any one " change " his wife because just " like it " more the wife's sister?

I don't think those can happen " just for fun " and does not happen because is WRONG.

I'm not talking or argueing on what are my or any one else preferences, I only give my opinion on what's could be right or wrong. My opinion is not biased by preferences.

I have very clear that almost all gentlemans here posted because preferennces but that's not the subject. Steve said: nothing new here, well he can't see it because can't understand the main subject. He is talking of rice and I'm talking of cars.

Yes, there are some gentlemans here that already understand my main subject and it does not matters if agree with or not but to understand it. Did you?

M.Bastor said I argue becauese I just like it and no I argue because I love to learn.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Well, I'm not giving up just yet.
I think that Raul is correct in that we do need to look to get the best sound from the recorded medium that we can. But, one has to take that a little further...the recorded medium also has to be capable of getting the recording as close to the original "live' event as possible. Plus, i think we should always utilize the sound of real unamplified instruments in a live setting as our: "Absolute Sound".
Raul keeps stating that "I like it" isn't a good enough reason to defend something... I ask, why not?
If we took a sampling of say thirty a'philes and twenty-five said they preferred the sound of tubes, and for no other reason than they "like the sound better" is there anything wrong with that? The fact that these same a'philes cannot point to one area or another from a technical standpoint as to why they prefer the technology; seems to me to be somewhat unimportant.
The real question Raul should be asking himself is this...am i open enough in my current thought process to allow myself to entertain the possibility that IF a tube system came along that I preferred to ss to a) acknowledge that and b) accept the technology as a better option for my audio system.
BTW, to state that arguing about something is a way of learning about something is only half true..IMHO, one also needs to have enough of an open mind to listen and accept knowledge.
That is the way that I was always taught to learn...
Finally, as far as I am concerned, IF ss allows me to hear what i believe is the closest to what I perceive as the 'real', then ss it is...IF it's tubes, then tubes it is...

 

[Steve Williams]

Raul

You grow somewhat boring and tedious. I am not a tube dealer. I use tubes in my gear. I appreciate your zeal in trying to convert everyone but let me say again. My preference is tubes. I would never try to convert you because that's not my style. You obviously have a different style. Enjoy your SS. I enjoy mine. I just prefer tubes more. You say you like to learn. Great. Then learn some tolerance of people. We don't disagree with everything you say. What you can't wrap your hands around us that there are many of us here who prefer tubes. Can you understand that

 

[DaveyF]

Steve, i want to ask you a question on this open forum....BTW, I already know the answer...BUT this is for Raul's benefit:

My question to you is: You happen to listen to some ss gear that is clearly superior to your current tube gear in every way that matters to you. The ss gear is affordable enough to consider
replacing your tube gear for. How long would it take you to be on the market with your tube gear?
Can you please answer the same question with your ss gear vs. tube gear, Raul

 

[MylesBAstor]

Steve, i want to ask you a question on this open forum....BTW, I already know the answer...BUT this is for Raul's benefit:

My question to you is: You happen to listen to some ss gear that is clearly superior to your current tube gear in every way that matters to you. The ss gear is affordable enough to consider
replacing your tube gear for. How long would it take you to be on the market with your tube gear?
Can you please answer the same question with your ss gear vs. tube gear, Raul

Let's deal in the real world rather than hypotheticals.

 

[jazdoc]

My friend Raul,

You make a classic mistake in logic...you are assuming that the closer the adherence to the RIAA curve, the better the phono preamp. I think we all (well most, it is an audio forum) would agree the RIAA adherence is important, but I have yet to see objective proof that it is the most important objective measurement amongst the myriad of other parameters that go into making a good phono preamp. Like many arguments in audio, RIAA adherence lends itself to such arguments because it is readily measured (as compared to other important parameters). Indeed, a fanatical focus on a limited set of measurements may lead to a false sense of security, as numbers can sometimes result in a false sense of precison (i.e. the tryanny of numbers). Please note, I'm not dismissing the possibility that your phono stage is extremely good or even 'the best'. I can't comment until I've heard it myself.


As long as we are kicking around well-worn sayings, it is well to remember that "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they are not entitled to their facts." Raul, if I may give you some unsolicited advice (which is probably worth what you are paying for); when you post a strongly held opinion as 'fact' it is just that, a strongly held opinion. Repeating said strongly held opinion ad naseum does not make it a fact. Indeed it oft times distracts from the potentially useful opinion you are trying to express. A fact is verifiable and immutable. That is, until we discover a new fact that offers a better explanation for the phenomena we are attempting to explain. It is good to remember that not all facts lend themselves to measurement. It is an immutable fact that I love my wife and kids, but definitely difficult to come up with a reliable measurement explaining it.

Please do not take this post to mean that I am some sort of a Ludditte who disdains measurements. I just believe that at the current time, the measurements commonly in use do not adequately decribe or reliably convey a hierchy of audio quality. Everyone operates along a continuum of objective and subjective factors. For example, price is usually an extremely important objective measurement which influences our subjective evaluations. Even dyed-in-the-wool 'objectivists' must utilize subjective critieria or else they would all own the same equipment at each price point.

So instead of endlessly arguing, I propose that we celebrate diversity and embrace our differences by accepting that we are all individuals who approach our passion armed with a few objective criteria admixed with a personal set of subjective biases. Can't we all just get along?

 

[DaveyF]

Let's deal in the real world rather than hypotheticals.

Are you saying there would be any difference to my hypothesis?


jazdoc, +1.