Tube gear obsolete??

[silviajulieta]

Dear Northstar: ++++ " Preference will never die " ++++, agree but this is a different subject. Maybe ( I don't read it yet. ) to discuss it under the Mep thread: " It's all a preference ".

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[NorthStar]

Hola Raoul amigo! :b ... You can call me Bob.

+++ "... this is a different subject." +++, yes and no. Here or there is good enough for me, and if it's good enough for me it's good enough for you too.

Tubes; some prefer them, others don't. Are they going to be extinct (obsolete) eventually, in a certain uncertain future? Nava!
- Love conquers all interventions and annihilations.

That's my opinion, and I'll die with it; tubed incinerated! ...Seriously though, when I hit my eighties, I'll get some audio tube gear.

Best regards to you Raul; exalt in grandeur & wisdom listening to the beauty of music.
{Love your style, love your strut, love the music.}

 

[sickophant]

I vote 'No'. Tube gear is not obsolete. There are some whacking great designs out there able to deliver incredibly enjoyable reproduction.

 

[DaveyF]

I took a week off (I wanted to take 'forever' off); but after reading this entire thread, it incited me to keep pursuing my dream!

Bob, I presume you are talking about the young lady in post #22, LOL.

 

[sickophant]

My vote goes to Solid State. I think Raul is right.

Now we just have to explain why SS from machine to machine gives differing results. And we could win this for SS.

And then we have to get those damned muse-o's that still use tube guitar heads and amps. a good spanking.

 

[DaveyF]

My vote goes to Solid State. I think Raul is right.

Now we just have to explain why SS from machine to machine gives differing results. Surely it's not natural equalisation. That's been explained away in dozens of warblings.

And then we have to get those damned muse-o's that still use tube guitar heads and amps. a good spanking.

I think we need to clarify the difference in what a guitarist is looking for in his tube amp and an a'phile. They are two VERY different things. The guitar player is looking for the amp to distort as
it breaks up. The distortion is used as modifier of the note and a sustainer of the note. Great player's "play their amp" as part of the instrument. Tube guitar amps are prized for their ability to
break up warmly and to allow greater sustain. Interestingly, one of the most prized jazz guitar amps is a model called the Roland JC120...a ss amp and prized for its ability to sound clean!
Nonetheless, the a'phile and guitar player are looking for two VERY different results.

 

[sickophant]

I suppose I was having a bit of a dig.

 

[DaveyF]

Dave, nice to meet you..

I thought you probably knew the difference, but I know there are many people on this forum that do not.

Back OT, It might be interesting to see how many people think that ss is currently superior to tubes and how many think tubes are currently superior to ss. Poll?

 

[c1ferrari]

Back OT, It might be interesting to see how many people think that ss is currently superior to tubes and how many think tubes are currently superior to ss. Poll?

POLL! POLL!

First, we'll do ss vs tubes
Then, digital vs analog
After that's been resolved, let's examine religion

 

[DaveyF]

POLL! POLL!

After that's been resolved, let's examine religion

Sam, after you..

 

[c1ferrari]

Sam, after you..

Hahahaha -- No Way, Jose

 

[mep]

i lost track of all the ss and tube gear ive owned, they both still sound different to me regardless of topologies. if you think tubes cant do bass you havent heard an early VTL amp with David's hand wound output irons w/ fixed 5-ohm taps. they had great bass quantity AND quality - even into dificult loads.

im 100% tube at the momemnt and lovin' it. the decider for me is when i have SS in the system im always wondering how tubes would sound. when ive got tubes all i can think of is what the next record will sound like

Rob-I understand that tube happiness, I really do. It wasn't all that long over that I had over 50 tubes in my system (pre-preamp, preamp, amp, and Ampex 350s). I just got to the point instead of wondering what the next record will sound like to wondering when the next tube was going to blow or go noisy.

The biggest difference sound-wise to me between SS and tubes is the apparent sense of three-dimensionality that tubes can provide. There also seems to be more harmonic information present with tubes which detractors would say is a result of harmonic distortion, but I don't think harmonic distortion numbers of today's better tube gear would explain that away. In measurement comparisons between SS and tubes, tube amps suffer the most. Tube preamps can measure very well, but they are at the mercy of how quiet the tubes are that are installed and how well matched they are if they are dual triodes. Most of today's tube preamps and power amps use JFETs on the input in order to raise gain and lower the noise. To name a few companies, VTL, ARC, and CJ all use JFETs in their preamps and I believe that at least CJ and ARC are using JFETs in their tube amps as well for the driver stage. So that really makes their gear hybrid designs though most tube lovers seem to be ignorant of that fact or choose to ignore it. If you look closely at any piece of modern tube gear, you will find some SS devices lurking under the hood in the form of rectifiers, voltage regulators, and input stages. The days of "pure" tube designs are pretty much over. I have a pair of musty, dirty, nasty Dynaco MKIII amps lurking in my workshop. Even though this design is from the 1950s, it still has a SS device in the bias supply.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Rob-I understand that tube happiness, I really do. It wasn't all that long over that I had over 50 tubes in my system (pre-preamp, preamp, amp, and Ampex 350s). I just got to the point instead of wondering what the next record will sound like to wondering when the next tube was going to blow or go noisy.

The biggest difference sound-wise to me between SS and tubes is the apparent sense of three-dimensionality that tubes can provide. There also seems to be more harmonic information present with tubes which detractors would say is a result of harmonic distortion, but I don't think harmonic distortion numbers of today's better tube gear would explain that away. In measurement comparisons between SS and tubes, tube amps suffer the most. Tube preamps can measure very well, but they are at the mercy of how quiet the tubes are that are installed and how well matched they are if they are dual triodes. Most of today's tube preamps and power amps use JFETs on the input in order to raise gain and lower the noise. To name a few companies, VTL, ARC, and CJ all use JFETs in their preamps and I believe that at least CJ and ARC are using JFETs in their tube amps as well for the driver stage. So that really makes their gear hybrid designs though most tube lovers seem to be ignorant of that fact or choose to ignore it. If you look closely at any piece of modern tube gear, you will find some SS devices lurking under the hood in the form of rectifiers, voltage regulators, and input stages. The days of "pure" tube designs are pretty much over. I have a pair of musty, dirty, nasty Dynaco MKIII amps lurking in my workshop. Even though this design is from the 1950s, it still has a SS device in the bias supply.

Mark-

As far as cj gear goes, the amplifiers are pure and unadulterated tube. Both the GAT and the TEA series phono sections use a MOSFET output in place of a cathode follower.

 

[mep]

Thanks for the clarification Myles.

 

[puroagave]

Rob-I understand that tube happiness, I really do...

i'm not saying ive never had a love hate relationship with tube gear, i have! i hate noise, schizo tubes and spontaneous fireworks that conclude with a few burnt resistors - ive been there too. otoh, ive had my share of noisy SS phono sections from the likes of klyne, Pass, Rowland, threshold and ML. maybe they're not so relevent today because the models in question are OOP but solid examples nonetheless. Have you heard the tube Zesto or the Rogue Ares phono stages? dead quiet both of 'em and not a FET in sight.

IMO, 'tube rush' is more of a problem with phono users. the overall gain structure of a system from the phono section to the power amp is critical with tubes and especailly the speaker load the amp will bear. I'm currently listening to a very modest all-tube system with SUTs in the phono stage and an amp with a passive linestage. I ditched the Joseph Audio Pulsars for now and inserted Harbeth S-HL5s (very tube amp friendly load). the overall gain is sufficient to amplify carts down to .2mv and drive the speakers loud enough for my tastes with sufficient headroom. maybe im lucky, but selecting phono in my system with the volume cranked up and no signal applied I cant detect any hiss, grain, hum or other artifacts from my listening position, in fact ive owned noiser all-SS systems.

 

[mep]

i'm not saying ive never had a love hate relationship with tube gear, i have! i hate noise, schizo tubes and spontaneous fireworks that conclude with a few burnt resistors - ive been there too. otoh, ive had my share of noisy SS phono sections from the likes of klyne, Pass, Rowland, threshold and ML. maybe they're not so relevent today because the models in question are OOP but solid examples nonetheless. Have you heard the tube Zesto or the Rogue Ares phono stages? dead quiet both of 'em and not a FET in sight.

Rob-I haven't heard either of them. If they are dead quiet, they either have SUTs or people are using high output cartridges with them. You can't amplify a MC cartridge that has an output in the .2mV something range with an all tube phono stage and not expect noise. You are going to be in the noise floor of the tubes when you are amplifying a signal that low.

IMO, 'tube rush' is more of a problem with phono users. the overall gain structure of a system from the phono section to the power amp is critical with tubes and especailly the speaker load the amp will bear. I'm currently listening to a very modest all-tube system with SUTs in the phono stage and an amp with a passive linestage. I ditched the Joseph Audio Pulsars for now and inserted Harbeth S-HL5s (very tube amp friendly load). the overall gain is sufficient to amplify carts down to .2mv and drive the speakers loud enough for my tastes with sufficient headroom. maybe im lucky, but selecting phono in my system with the volume cranked up and no signal applied I cant detect any hiss, grain, hum or other artifacts from my listening position, in fact ive owned noiser all-SS systems.

You are right. All tube phono stages and low output MC cartridges are a problem. Well designed tube line stages can have very high S/N ratios. Not as high as a SS preamp, but acceptably low noise for line-level inputs.

 

[microstrip]

POLL! POLL!
(...)
After that's been resolved, let's examine religion

Not before we carry a poll on copper cables versus silver cables!

 

[MylesBAstor]

i'm not saying ive never had a love hate relationship with tube gear, i have! i hate noise, schizo tubes and spontaneous fireworks that conclude with a few burnt resistors - ive been there too. otoh, ive had my share of noisy SS phono sections from the likes of klyne, Pass, Rowland, threshold and ML. maybe they're not so relevent today because the models in question are OOP but solid examples nonetheless. Have you heard the tube Zesto or the Rogue Ares phono stages? dead quiet both of 'em and not a FET in sight.

IMO, 'tube rush' is more of a problem with phono users. the overall gain structure of a system from the phono section to the power amp is critical with tubes and especailly the speaker load the amp will bear. I'm currently listening to a very modest all-tube system with SUTs in the phono stage and an amp with a passive linestage. I ditched the Joseph Audio Pulsars for now and inserted Harbeth S-HL5s (very tube amp friendly load). the overall gain is sufficient to amplify carts down to .2mv and drive the speakers loud enough for my tastes with sufficient headroom. maybe im lucky, but selecting phono in my system with the volume cranked up and no signal applied I cant detect any hiss, grain, hum or other artifacts from my listening position, in fact ive owned noiser all-SS systems.

But the Zesto IIRC uses a SUT and that comes with own set of issues. Nice unit but seems somewhat lackluster when it comes to dynamics.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Rob-I haven't heard either of them. If they are dead quiet, they either have SUTs or people are using high output cartridges with them. You can't amplify a MC cartridge that has an output in the .2mV something range with an all tube phono stage and not expect noise. You are going to be in the noise floor of the tubes when you are amplifying a signal that low.



You are right. All tube phono stages and low output MC cartridges are a problem. Well designed tube line stages can have very high S/N ratios. Not as high as a SS preamp, but acceptably low noise for line-level inputs.

Or you use something like a Lyra with an output of 0.5 - 0.55 mV or a Clearaudio with an output of around 0.8 or so mV. Another consideration that is sometimes overlooked is the input sensitivity of the amplifier. Many tube amps are around 1.5-2 V; get a tube amp with 0.5 V and you can run something maybe around 0.3 mV with an all tube phono stage. Or find a very efficient speaker like Bill uses

 

[puroagave]

But the Zesto IIRC uses a SUT and that comes with own set of issues. Nice unit but seems somewhat lackluster when it comes to dynamics.

pick your poision two more cascaded tube stages or the free gain SUTs offer, and yes they have their detractors but not all SUTs are created equal - even Rowland uses them now and he plays with superior distortion-free SS devices - just ask Raul

the guy who bought my Zesto Andros posted his ARC Ref phono2 for sale the next day...and he's a Lyra nut. I moved on to the Ares which is mo' betta in my system and its a ridiculous bargain to boot.