Tube gear obsolete??

[mep]

Mark, oh my, where to begin is try not to take stuff too far out of context. i am answering about a debate about solid state vs tube power amplification and why someone might prefer one over the other.

Yeah, but you couldn't resist getting another jab in against stereo.

you got an audio club in your area you belong to?

Nope. I am surrounded by a bunch of hillbillies with loud pick up trucks though.

i know you were at chicago show. Did every room sound the same. did every rooms sponsers think they had "the" sound?

Yes, I was at the Chicago show. No, every room sounded different. Did every sponsor think they had "the" sound? I don't know if some of them are delusional. Bottom line is that guys like Gary go to shows and sometimes take speakers there that aren't anywhere close to representing their reference level speakers, but they bring them because they will work in the room they rented to use. I don't think that Gary comes to a show with a pair of his 7.whatever speakers and tries to convince anyone that they sound just like his big references speakers do.

the members of the audio club that i visit now and then all have differnt sounding systems and none sound bad and some better to me than others.

No surprises there. All rooms sound different and all gear sounds different. If you go to visit people and hear their systems, every room sounds different and all gear sounds different. Even if you had two audiophiles in your club that had identical systems right down to the last power cord and cryogenically treated wall-outlet, their systems would still sound different because of their rooms.

Some have old gear, some new, some processing digitally, some all tubes, some hybrids, etc. Are all these guys having improved sound systems over the years now, and they all sound different?

Yep, no surprises there either for all the reasons I just described above. Different topologies sound different, all speakers sound different, all tables and cartridges sound different, and on and on. Audio is equivalent to the Tower of Babel.

its quite possible that if my audio club guys came round and heard your "newer" system and my "older" system half of them would rate mine as better sounding possibly. but theres no accounting for taste...aha ahahahah

There is no accounting for taste Tom. God only knows what members of your audio club would think if they heard your system compared to mine. Maybe 100% of your members would prefer the sound of your system.

i dont hate stereo or my stereo at all, but i sure do love headphones these days.

You could have fooled me Tom. You never stop taking jabs at stereo. Your tag line while slightly modified from your previous anti-two channel rant still spells out how you feel about stereo:

It's impossible for stereo two channel mic/speakers to realistically replicate unamplified musical events. The resulting unrealistic reproduction must be accepted or leaves some desiring more. Some endlessly change components pursuing the impossible. With 10 being realistic replication, I generously give stereo a rating of 5 for "getting me there". I rate binaural via headphones 8. I pursue detail/tone over soundstage. Objectivists and Subjectivists debate an ILLUSION!

 

[microstrip]

Mark said: Wow. Where to begin...I guess I will start here:


Originally Posted by tomelex
many audiophiles are not impressed with this stereo interpretation, and they seek a "change" to the sound. So, many prefer the contrast to the sound that the "incorrect" tube power amplifier produces.

Mark says:
People buy tube amplifiers because they don't like the sound of stereo? Really? If only we had your version of audio nirvana which I guess is binaural which doesn't work in the real world over a pair of speakers then people wouldn't want to own tube amps? Do you really believe that?

I'm still trying to figure out whether you really hate stereo or you really hate your stereo. You get tired of listening to your Hafler amp(s) and you switch over to some SET amp to get another flavor and then you flip back over to your Hafler when you get sick of the syrup. Most audiophiles make attempts over the years to improve the sound and quality of their systems as resources permit. I believe your system is still primarily rooted in the very early 1980s except for your SET amp whose roots are in the 1940s. Please tell me if I'm mistaken lest I get accused of stereotyping you as someone who has held onto their stereo gear for many, many years and those old components still makes up their main system.



and Tomelex replies now,

Mark,

oh my, where to begin is try not to take stuff too far out of context. i am answering about a debate about solid state vs tube power amplification and why someone might prefer one over the other.

you got an audio club in your area you belong to? i know you were at chicago show. Did every room sound the same. did every rooms sponsers think they had "the" sound?

the members of the audio club that i visit now and then all have differnt sounding systems and none sound bad and some better to me than others.

Some have old gear, some new, some processing digitally, some all tubes, some hybrids, etc. Are all these guys having improved sound systems over the years now, and they all sound different.....

its quite possible that if my audio club guys came round and heard your "newer" system and my "older" system half of them would rate mine as better sounding possibly. but theres no accounting for taste...aha ahahahah

i dont hate stereo or my stereo at all, but i sure do love headphones these days.

dear oh dear, what you dont know about my SET amp...syrup is not the word...and the latest incarnation of the amp is very new...very exlcusive...and very low powered...and thats the direction i am moving in

Tom,
Could you quote posts using the forum standard ways of doing it? I like to follow debates knowing who is who ...

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Microstrip: No, you don't disappoint me. For me is way clear your targets are not enjoyimg the MUSIC that's in the recording but a heavy make-up signal.

I think that the problem with some of you is that think that for enjoy music through an audio system that audio system has to be non-accurate.

Gentlemans, accuracy is an inherent part of the MUSIC. Where do you learn or read it that accuracy is against or fights or preclude the MUSIC enjoyment?

Microstrip, I'm looking exactly the same as any one of you: MUSIC enjoyment, MUSIC that moves my deepest " feelings/emotions " and I like to do it with accuracy: faitfully to the recording.

Do you know why today Pass amplifiers uses FET/MOSFETS instead bipolar transistors? ( well I can't be sure and it's only a thought and what's sure is that I can be wrong. ): I admire N.Pass as an amp designer. I owned Pass electronics ( Phono, line stage and amps. ) and till today the best Pass amp I heard it ( I already heard it the in my system the XA ones. ) was the Threshold S500e, great bipolar design but not near the " tube " sound and Pass amps are in the market dominated by tube technology so he changed to FET/Mosfets because these devices performs near the " tube " sound but these amps IMHO are not the best Pass amps designed even the Threshold SA-1e were better.
Unfortunatelly almost all is about money$$$$$$.

++++ " Enjoy the recording, I will go on enjoying the music " ++++

a deep misunderstood from your part because first than all I'm enjoying MUSIC, MUSIC that happen is in the recording. From where came or comes the MUSIC you are enjoying? Certainly from the recording.


I read it part of a thread where some one was talking of tone controls in electronics and some of you go in " drama " because of that with out knowing that some of you are hearing your audio system through real tone controls in the tube amp figure and you are hearing it with out single real control by you.

One real advantage to integrate in a home audio system an external equalizer is that is you who define which " color " you want on each frequency range when through the tube amp/equalizer you are at random!!!!!


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.




Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[mep]

Tom,
Could you quote posts using the forum standard ways of doing it? I like to follow debates knowing who is who ...

Francisco-Without wanting to stereotype Tom, I started to say I had a feeling that Tom doesn't know how to use quotes or turn on his spell-check. His post above proves that he does know how to use quotes, so I'm guessing the rest of the time when he doesn't use them he just can't be bothered to keep cutting and pasting the beginning and end quotes.

 

[microstrip]

Some people like gas in their water, some added minerals, some only want pure water.

and some want to add water to their whiskey....

Raul,
Do you know that pure water in the strict sense is an insulator? However it is never used as an insulator. Can you guess why?

 

[mep]

Raul,
Do you know that pure water in the strict sense is an insulator? However it is never used as an insulator. Can you guess why?

"Pure" water is never truly pure and the best you can hope for is low-conductivity water that will stand-off high voltage.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Microstrip: No, you don't disappoint me. For me is way clear your targets are not enjoyimg the MUSIC that's in the recording but a heavy make-up signal.

I think that the problem with some of you is that think that for enjoy music through an audio system that audio system has to be non-accurate.

Gentlemans, accuracy is an inherent part of the MUSIC. Where do you learn or read it that accuracy is against or fights or preclude the MUSIC enjoyment?

(...)

Raul,
It seems that one of the main problems is the way you define accuracy. How do YOU check for accuracy in practice? Sorry to ask for such a basic question but I do not remember reading from you about this aspect.
BTW do you listen mainly to acoustical music?

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Mep: Headphones is a great tool to make audio items evaluations/comparisons because as you posted the room link is the one that makes more differences, so taking out the room for tests comparisons is an advantage.

Now, that some one as Tomelex prefer to hear day by day through binaural headphones that's IMHO a: preference and nothing more because it can't compares to a stereo system. We can't compare: apples with bananas, sure is different.

Btw, Tomelex: yes I understand that people does not like accuracy but no one of them give any single reason for that non-accurate preference.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[DaveyF]

Dear DaveyF: ++++ " BUT remember it is your opinion and nothing more... " +++++ really?

no, it is not my opinion is the OHM opinion. I'm just explain it. I'm not entitled as you said it.

I'm always willing to learn nad as a fact I learned through this thread but do you know why I always learn?:

because I'm entitled with nothing, I'm always open to change my knowledge level and skills if permit that I improve and grow up for the better MUSIC enjoyment.

I never have the " ostrich " attitude that helps for nothing.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

This is getting a little tedious, LOL. However, I think it may be helpful to Raul to consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, if anyone is sticking their head in the sand...( ostrich ! ) it is he. Why, because there are numerous benefit's to tube gear and ss gear....each has it's own strengths and weaknesses as I posted before. Raul seemingly refuses to acknowledge that tubes can, and IME mostly do, sound better or at least as good as ss. I happen to like both topologies...which is why I use a Rowland model8 ss amp and a ARC D70Mk2 tube amp ( not at the same time). The ss amp has certain benefits, the tube amp has certain benefits. However, neither is perfect, or could be expected to be.
But, to simply throw my towel onto one topology only, and then try and defend with some mumbo jumbo reasoning why I have this preference, isn't anything BUT digging your head into the sand; ala the ostrich in Raul's post!

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Microstrip: I have " 100% " control/measures ( not manufacture specs. ) over my electronics and other system links I try that almost always everything performs with that accuracy level. This is an example of what I'm saying:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104284...CKaK_bnM-of_9AE#slideshow/5618984373471289250

this was measured at my place and is the high gain active phonolinepreamp I'm using daily, for me that is accuracy and: for you?.

Here you can compare my unit against same real measures of two very well know SS phonolinepreamps:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104284...gCI3hj-juiKXOGA#slideshow/5618983008834878562

all three measures were taken from SS units. Now please let me know how measure ( not specs but real measure of your unit. ) your phonolinepreamp on that RIAA regards.

In the other side each single week I attend to listen live MUSIC, mainly classical and jazz/blues but I like almost every kind of MUSIC.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[mep]

This is getting a little tedious, LOL. However, I think it may be helpful to Raul to consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, if anyone is sticking their head in the sand...( ostrich ! ) it is he. Why, because there are numerous benefit's to tube gear and ss gear....each has it's own strengths and weaknesses as I posted before. Raul seemingly refuses to acknowledge that tubes can, and IME mostly do, sound better or at least as good as ss. I happen to like both topologies...which is why I use a Rowland model8 ss amp and a ARC D70Mk2 tube amp ( not at the same time). The ss amp has certain benefits, the tube amp has certain benefits. However, neither is perfect, or could be expected to be.
But, to simply throw my towel onto one topology only, and then try and defend with some mumbo jumbo reasoning why I have this preference, isn't anything BUT digging your head into the sand; ala the ostrich in Raul's post!

To be fair to Raul, he is certainly not using "mumbo jumbo" reasoning for why he thinks SS amps are more accurate than tubes amps are. Raul is using science and measurements to show that which most of us truly know and that is SS amps can more faithfully track the input signal and tolerate the impedance swings of speakers without distorting the output signal in terms of frequency response deviations across the audio band. And having said that, I gave up on tube preamps and power amps (but not my Ampex 350s) because I grew tired of tube noise and tube hassles and not because I don't love the sound of tube products. And only someone with no technical background and/or the hearing challenged would try and say that tube gear is as quiet as well-designed SS gear because the measurements would quickly show that is not true. We really can measure S/N ratio and I happen to like a very high S/N ratio.

A long time ago I started a thread called "It's all a Preference" which ran for many pages and still pops up from time to time and I still stand by every word I said. Tube amps can sound wonderful and I know because I have owned lots of them over the years. Do they sound wonderful in spite of the measured specifications or because of them? Common sense would say they sound wonderful in spite of their less than stellar measurements. The bottom line is that preference can trump accuracy in terms of purchasing decisions and the pleasure people derive from those purchases. You can't argue that your tube amp is more accurate according to accepted measurements, but you can argue that you like the sound better.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear DaveyF: Seems to me that's futile/useless to follow talking with you.

My advise is that when you start a thread first be prepared to any kind of answers and instead to defend what has no real defense: read/hear and learn to improve your MUSIC enjoyment.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Mep: I can't explain it better than you, thank's to understand my point. According it: " they sound wonderful because of them ( measures )? .


++++ " but you can argue that you like the sound better " ++++, yes and I'm not against it.

I think is enough from my part. Almost everything was in the posts and I don't want to be " little tedious ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[DaveyF]

Dear DaveyF: Seems to me that's futile/useless to follow talking with you.

My advise is that when you start a thread first be prepared to any kind of answers and instead to defend what has no real defense: read/hear and learn to improve your MUSIC enjoyment.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, you need to be a little less supercilious, IMHO. ( please look up that word and translate it...IF that is NOT the way you are trying to come across here, i apologize to you).

 

[DaveyF]

BTW, to those who don't think Raul is posting what I call mumbo jumbo...here is a perfect example (post#121): "Perhaps the more " elusive " audio subject is about distortions, first because normally " no one " speaks about distortions " no one " likes to speaks about what's right or wrong but what " I like it ". Normally we have not in deep experiences on non-obvious audio system distortions ( any kind. ) me either.

Sometime ago ( years. ) I decide to start an " adventure/explore " on distortions: learn about distortions but not only learn in technical way that could help for nothing really but learn how different kind of distortions sounds and how detect ( be aware of it ) it. This was a really hard task because I could not find out nothing that could help me on that " adventure ". So, I started to walk in my own " designed "road " with out real knowledge on the " road path ". It was not only a learning lesson but even that I falled " once and again " was full of " fun ".

Certainly it's a long road to " home " and I can't give the overall leartning proccess. What I can tell you is that to be aware of distoritons you need to know how it sounds and if not then you never be able to detect it. I'm trained by my self to be aware of those distortions not only on electronics but on speakers, cartridges, tonearms and the like.
( non obvious ones ) that you can't do it and not because my ears are better than nyou but because I'm traied to do it and you not only are not trained but are not aware of its existense even that you are hearing/heard it every day.

So you can't understand part of my posts because you are unaware of what I'm talking about.

I posted that we have to have a self designed method/proccess to evaluate audio items, part of that method/proccess is about distortions."

....

 

[mep]

Davey-It's not "mumbo jumbo." You are stereotyping someone who has English as a second language as speaking "mumbo jumbo" when in reality, Raul is just struggling with how to convert the thoughts in his head into English that everyone can understand. I "get" what he is saying even if I don't always agree with everything he says. I for one don't think it is fair or kind to say someone is speaking in "mumbo jumbo" when English is not their first language and they are obviously not fluid in writing English. I know that I couldn't write a sentence in another language.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Microstrip: I have " 100% " control/measures ( not manufacture specs. ) over my electronics and other system links I try that almost always everything performs with that accuracy level. This is an example of what I'm saying:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104284...CKaK_bnM-of_9AE#slideshow/5618984373471289250

this was measured at my place and is the high gain active phonolinepreamp I'm using daily, for me that is accuracy and: for you?.

Here you can compare my unit against same real measures of two very well know SS phonolinepreamps:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104284...gCI3hj-juiKXOGA#slideshow/5618983008834878562

all three measures were taken from SS units. Now please let me know how measure ( not specs but real measure of your unit. ) your phonolinepreamp on that RIAA regards.

In the other side each single week I attend to listen live MUSIC, mainly classical and jazz/blues but I like almost every kind of MUSIC.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Well, if 100% control accuracy is just frequency response I am more exigent - I regularly measure FR and distortion of my equipment to check for its condition, not sound quality. What else do you measure in your system?

 

[NorthStar]

I took a week off (I wanted to take 'forever' off); but after reading this entire thread, it incited me to keep pursuing my dream!

This is certainly one of the most interesting and informative thread of the Internet, period!

* As for my personal view on; Tube Gear Obsolete? ...Never! ...Preference will never die, no matter what can happen in this world!

_____________________

- Some people I love and keep discovering, others I missed, but I know that deep in my heart they're there, here, and still with us.
Audio (music) without people to create it would not exist! ...Same thing listening, talking about it, and all that jazz.

 

[JackD201]

Davey-It's not "mumbo jumbo." You are stereotyping someone who has English as a second language as speaking "mumbo jumbo" when in reality, Raul is just struggling with how to convert the thoughts in his head into English that everyone can understand. I "get" what he is saying even if I don't always agree with everything he says. I for one don't think it is fair or kind to say someone is speaking in "mumbo jumbo" when English is not their first language and they are obviously not fluid in writing English. I know that I couldn't write a sentence in another language.

I can write a few sentences in languages other than English or Filipino but it would probably get me banned.

 

[mep]

I can write a few sentences in languages other than English or Filipino but it would probably get me banned.

The only thing I can think of is "Tres Hombres" which isn't really a complete sentence.