Tube gear obsolete??
- Thread starter DaveyF
- Start date
Just to be clear, I am NOT of the opinion that all tube gear is superior to ss gear, or for that matter the reverse. However, as I stated in my OP, IMHO tube gear does provide a certain level of reproduction that most if not all ss gear currently cannot emulate. As an example of what I am talking about, I have not heard a ss amp that so far compares with the likes of the Lamm ML 3s. Or, for that matter a ss amp that can reproduce the sense of the ambient field that my ARC amp can. However, without question, there are ss amps that do have certain attributes that tube amps cannot deliver. ( I'm thinking of the iron fisted control and accuracy in the bottom end that a great ss amp brings to the party, as one example). The question, as I stated before,is when or if all of us in the tube camp would go over to the ss camp, as at that time there would be NO advantage to us in owning a tube amp anymore. Likelihood?
Dear DaveyF: I understand you. Maybe a " problem " is that you are not taking in count where the recording started. Yes, started at the microphones that are in a near field position ( 2m-3m. ). When we attend to a live music event and we are seated at near field position we can't detect that " ambient field ". That " ambient field " is generated by those electronics but does not exist in the recording, sometimes could exist because the recording proccess is manipulated.
+++++ " would be NO advantage to us in owning a tube amp " +++++
this is what is argueable. Nothing is perfect and today both technologies have its own trade-offs, the matters of that subject is which trade-offs makes less harm to the MUSIC and puts us nearest to what is in the recording..
Anyway, I have very clear your point, thank's.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
+++++ " would be NO advantage to us in owning a tube amp " +++++
this is what is argueable. Nothing is perfect and today both technologies have its own trade-offs, the matters of that subject is which trade-offs makes less harm to the MUSIC and puts us nearest to what is in the recording..
Anyway, I have very clear your point, thank's.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear Andromedaaudio: +++++ " acoustical music , which is never hard on the ear as they are natural instruments.... " ++++, really?.
Well try this: bring to your place a trumpet/horn player, seat at 2m-3m from him and ask him to play at normal SPL and you will experiment that natural agresiveness that has the live music. You can seat too in a piano and play it at normal levels and you will see what I'm talking about.
Live music has very low distortions but has its own color that in many ways like with a trumpet could do harm and could sounds agressive and bright is not strident. Well, SS reproduce that kind of sound when that sound is in the recording, it does not changes it with a false " softness " that is non-existent in the recording.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Funny you bring up piano , i am just playing a mastertape from Jorge Bolet , best piano ive heard ever .
tubes no attack ,well yes and then some , may be i should have said natural decay instead of softness ,high quality tubes have very natural decay.
And dont get me wrong i have compared extensively to boulder which is the best SS ive heard , what solid state are you referring to ,as there are considerable levels of performance in the SS world in my opinion , ranging from very musical to crap
_DSC0066 by andromeda61, on Flickr
tubes no attack ,well yes and then some , may be i should have said natural decay instead of softness ,high quality tubes have very natural decay.
And dont get me wrong i have compared extensively to boulder which is the best SS ive heard , what solid state are you referring to ,as there are considerable levels of performance in the SS world in my opinion , ranging from very musical to crap
_DSC0066 by andromeda61, on Flickr
Dear Andromedaaudio: Look, an amplifier is only one link in the home audio system chain. One " road " to improve the audio system quality performance level is to lower distortions ( any kind: colorations, noises, elctrical matching, etc, etc. ) at each link in that audio chain.
There is no " magic " to improve the quality system performance level, we have to work in deep at each audio link from source to speaker/room with a precise method/proccess designed by each one of us that could permit to be sure we are lowering distortions and that permit that we can be aware that after system up-dates/tweaks we are nearest to the recording. That proccess must be designed to be repeatable.
Regards and enjoy tyhe music,
R.
There is no " magic " to improve the quality system performance level, we have to work in deep at each audio link from source to speaker/room with a precise method/proccess designed by each one of us that could permit to be sure we are lowering distortions and that permit that we can be aware that after system up-dates/tweaks we are nearest to the recording. That proccess must be designed to be repeatable.
Regards and enjoy tyhe music,
R.
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you are refererring to real science/technology , with which i agree, lowering distortions is a perfect design goal and indeed the boulder is a tad quiter
A lot of what goes around among audiophiles and the business in general however is pseudo science in my opinion .
A lot of what goes around among audiophiles and the business in general however is pseudo science in my opinion .
We have a Steinway D grand piano; baritone, alto, tenor and soprano saxophones; clarinet, guitar and ukele in our house; so I am familiar with their sounds.
I have a tube preamplification system with directly heated triodes and separate mercury rectified power supplies. No solid state preamp I've ever heard in my system comes close to the bandwidth, speed and naturalness of the musical attack and decay.
Dear Jazdoc: +++++ " comes close to the bandwidth, speed and naturalness of the musical attack and decay. " +++++, at least bandwidth and speed are well know SS characteristics.
Now, could be ( I really can't be sure or know it. ) that with the SS preamp inside exist no system synergy but could be many other things, including poor SS designs.
We can't hope that changing one system link ( especially on electronics ) things be improved per se. My experiences tell me that when we change any system link normally we have to reset the whole system set up taking especial care on the analog rig link as: cartridge load impedance, VTA/SRA and can't forget to even SPL ( volume. ) during tests comparisons/evaluation. Nothing comes for " free ", we have to work to achieve better quality performance level.
If I change my today phonolinepreamp for other one then I have to reset almost everything because before that unit change my audio system is/was fine tunned with my today unit and if I change it I must reset the set up and again fine tune the system with the new unit. Btw, the tests comparisons must be do it using the same LP tracks/grooves.
If we take care about IMHO there is no reason why a decent SS preamp can't shows all those characteristics you name it and in better way that tube can. Of course that if does not exist synergy or we have not so good SS unit design or we don't reset the system set up we can't expect first rate quality performance level.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Now, could be ( I really can't be sure or know it. ) that with the SS preamp inside exist no system synergy but could be many other things, including poor SS designs.
We can't hope that changing one system link ( especially on electronics ) things be improved per se. My experiences tell me that when we change any system link normally we have to reset the whole system set up taking especial care on the analog rig link as: cartridge load impedance, VTA/SRA and can't forget to even SPL ( volume. ) during tests comparisons/evaluation. Nothing comes for " free ", we have to work to achieve better quality performance level.
If I change my today phonolinepreamp for other one then I have to reset almost everything because before that unit change my audio system is/was fine tunned with my today unit and if I change it I must reset the set up and again fine tune the system with the new unit. Btw, the tests comparisons must be do it using the same LP tracks/grooves.
If we take care about IMHO there is no reason why a decent SS preamp can't shows all those characteristics you name it and in better way that tube can. Of course that if does not exist synergy or we have not so good SS unit design or we don't reset the system set up we can't expect first rate quality performance level.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Mark, I would totally agree with your statement. I too have never heard a ss preamp that can re-create anything like what you describe....and I have heard many ss preamps. I do agree that theoretically a ss preamp should at some point in the future be able to compete on all fronts with a tube preamp. Maybe there are a few out there right now that are equivalents, I just have never heard one.
Dear DaveyF: +++++ " you believe that ALL a'philes ( including myself) who like tube gear are NOT able to hear the distortions that are according to you.......... the continued exposure to tube gear has sullied my ability (and for that matter all those who listen to tube gear) to discern inherent distortions in said tube gear........... anyone who doesn't hear what you hear in tube gear and NOT in ss gear is inherently technically ignorant....... " +++++
Perhaps the more " elusive " audio subject is about distortions, first because normally " no one " speaks about distortions " no one " likes to speaks about what's right or wrong but what " I like it ". Normally we have not in deep experiences on non-obvious audio system distortions ( any kind. ) me either.
Sometime ago ( years. ) I decide to start an " adventure/explore " on distortions: learn about distortions but not only learn in technical way that could help for nothing really but learn how different kind of distortions sounds and how detect ( be aware of it ) it. This was a really hard task because I could not find out nothing that could help me on that " adventure ". So, I started to walk in my own " designed "road " with out real knowledge on the " road path ". It was not only a learning lesson but even that I falled " once and again " was full of " fun ".
Certainly it's a long road to " home " and I can't give the overall leartning proccess. What I can tell you is that to be aware of distoritons you need to know how it sounds and if not then you never be able to detect it. I'm trained by my self to be aware of those distortions not only on electronics but on speakers, cartridges, tonearms and the like.
( non obvious ones ) that you can't do it and not because my ears are better than nyou but because I'm traied to do it and you not only are not trained but are not aware of its existense even that you are hearing/heard it every day.
So you can't understand part of my posts because you are unaware of what I'm talking about.
I posted that we have to have a self designed method/proccess to evaluate audio items, part of that method/proccess is about distortions.
There are tests that are " easy " to experienced where we can be aware of IMD, for example, in speakers. How?, well any passive two ways ( and 3-way an even up. ) speakers has " high " IMD through its two drivers and especial in the " woofer ". Normally a two ways speaker crossover is around 2.5-3.5 khz with a low bass frequency around 40 hz to 55 hz. This means that the woofer frequency range is wider than " ideal " and it's handling from 40 hz to 3.5 khz, problem is that this woofer has to reproduce at the same time all the notes/harmonics in that wide frequency range and ( for example ) when the recording ask for a 50 hz " sound " and at the same time a 2.5 khz one exist an IMD level that's very high because the woofer excursions need it for that 50 hz notes and that can't stopped faster enough to avoid distortions that affect the reproduction of a 3.5 khz notes. I'm not very good to explain it but more or less is what happen there. Same for a threee ways speaker but on different frequency range.
If we integrate a pair of active subwoofers in true stereo fashion to that two-three way passive speakers audio system we can detect immediatly the dramatic quality performance improvement.
Why? because now we have a wider frequency range in the bass management ?, NO, it's because we lower the IMD distortions level in the main speakers woofers that now are avoiding those long woofer excursions that now are handled by the subs. A good crossover frequency could be 80hz, this liberate the small main speaker woofers of those " low " frequency range and those frequencies that before were performed by the main speakers now are handled by an active dedicated speaker ( name it: subwoofers. ) designed in specific for handle precisely and accuartely that kind of frequency range. Of course we have additional benefits/improvements with that subs integration as: better bass management, not only deepest but accurate, neutral, defined, with low bass distortions an almost no compromise system: these are side improvements over that lower audio system IMD.
Like this example there are many that I learned and where I have first and experiences. DaveyF, believe me that I know what I'm talking about and in this regards you don't because you have not the pertinent training yet and that's all.
I hope this could help to understand my posts in better way.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Perhaps the more " elusive " audio subject is about distortions, first because normally " no one " speaks about distortions " no one " likes to speaks about what's right or wrong but what " I like it ". Normally we have not in deep experiences on non-obvious audio system distortions ( any kind. ) me either.
Sometime ago ( years. ) I decide to start an " adventure/explore " on distortions: learn about distortions but not only learn in technical way that could help for nothing really but learn how different kind of distortions sounds and how detect ( be aware of it ) it. This was a really hard task because I could not find out nothing that could help me on that " adventure ". So, I started to walk in my own " designed "road " with out real knowledge on the " road path ". It was not only a learning lesson but even that I falled " once and again " was full of " fun ".
Certainly it's a long road to " home " and I can't give the overall leartning proccess. What I can tell you is that to be aware of distoritons you need to know how it sounds and if not then you never be able to detect it. I'm trained by my self to be aware of those distortions not only on electronics but on speakers, cartridges, tonearms and the like.
( non obvious ones ) that you can't do it and not because my ears are better than nyou but because I'm traied to do it and you not only are not trained but are not aware of its existense even that you are hearing/heard it every day.
So you can't understand part of my posts because you are unaware of what I'm talking about.
I posted that we have to have a self designed method/proccess to evaluate audio items, part of that method/proccess is about distortions.
There are tests that are " easy " to experienced where we can be aware of IMD, for example, in speakers. How?, well any passive two ways ( and 3-way an even up. ) speakers has " high " IMD through its two drivers and especial in the " woofer ". Normally a two ways speaker crossover is around 2.5-3.5 khz with a low bass frequency around 40 hz to 55 hz. This means that the woofer frequency range is wider than " ideal " and it's handling from 40 hz to 3.5 khz, problem is that this woofer has to reproduce at the same time all the notes/harmonics in that wide frequency range and ( for example ) when the recording ask for a 50 hz " sound " and at the same time a 2.5 khz one exist an IMD level that's very high because the woofer excursions need it for that 50 hz notes and that can't stopped faster enough to avoid distortions that affect the reproduction of a 3.5 khz notes. I'm not very good to explain it but more or less is what happen there. Same for a threee ways speaker but on different frequency range.
If we integrate a pair of active subwoofers in true stereo fashion to that two-three way passive speakers audio system we can detect immediatly the dramatic quality performance improvement.
Why? because now we have a wider frequency range in the bass management ?, NO, it's because we lower the IMD distortions level in the main speakers woofers that now are avoiding those long woofer excursions that now are handled by the subs. A good crossover frequency could be 80hz, this liberate the small main speaker woofers of those " low " frequency range and those frequencies that before were performed by the main speakers now are handled by an active dedicated speaker ( name it: subwoofers. ) designed in specific for handle precisely and accuartely that kind of frequency range. Of course we have additional benefits/improvements with that subs integration as: better bass management, not only deepest but accurate, neutral, defined, with low bass distortions an almost no compromise system: these are side improvements over that lower audio system IMD.
Like this example there are many that I learned and where I have first and experiences. DaveyF, believe me that I know what I'm talking about and in this regards you don't because you have not the pertinent training yet and that's all.
I hope this could help to understand my posts in better way.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
However , silviajulieta since none of the audiophile listening expiriences are "" CE "" certified a lot will remain a mistery 
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Unless these 'tone controls' are a Parametric EQ, then you're just guessing at what each individual needs!
Ahh Boyz, boyz, thanks for taking my fishing so well. It did not go so well over on the d'Agostino Memento pre-amp. threads. Though there I wasn't fishing but was taken aback that d'Agostino would have released a premium 'craft with 70's style Teac Treble and Bass tone controls. The boys, obviously BIG fans of the audio god, did not take my mentioning this very well at all; but I was even more shocked at the absent attitude to such a statement being made by a man that is an industry mover-and-groover and whom is a trend definer.
Anyway, I ended up fishing there after all as I eventually repeatedly offered to sell them bridges (with tone controls!) as if they believed their own gushings about recording corrections with tone controls then they'd possibly buy a bridge from me. It's a nice one.
No Folks, tubes are not obsolete. But someone get Western Electric geared up again and start replacing the depleting 300b's and 417a's that I require.
Thanks for you gentle jibes, sorry if you did not otherwise get it via cross-thread cross-referencing.
Of course I also pointed them toward a more suitable solution from Mark Levinson's x-Cello brand, the Palette, but that wasn't taken well either. I'm not into equalisation for my own purposes and I have been dismayed that after years of this and that out of signal paths and no extras outside of the pure, the complacency, I just imagined sheep lead to the cliff, no questions. And its D.d'A.!
Want to buy a bridge?
Anyway, I ended up fishing there after all as I eventually repeatedly offered to sell them bridges (with tone controls!) as if they believed their own gushings about recording corrections with tone controls then they'd possibly buy a bridge from me. It's a nice one.
No Folks, tubes are not obsolete. But someone get Western Electric geared up again and start replacing the depleting 300b's and 417a's that I require.
Thanks for you gentle jibes, sorry if you did not otherwise get it via cross-thread cross-referencing.
Of course I also pointed them toward a more suitable solution from Mark Levinson's x-Cello brand, the Palette, but that wasn't taken well either. I'm not into equalisation for my own purposes and I have been dismayed that after years of this and that out of signal paths and no extras outside of the pure, the complacency, I just imagined sheep lead to the cliff, no questions. And its D.d'A.!
Want to buy a bridge?
Dear Sickophant: Well, you already have and hear through those tone controls, at random but tone controls ( but you can't control nothing. ) name it Audio Note. I wonder if you understand that an unmatched amp-speakers permit that the amp works as a random tone control: different SPL all the way ( frequency spectrum. ) the speaker impedance curve. Certainly you don't need additional tone controls.
I can see that you like it colored sound, not only because tubes but Olympos and the Insider. The Frog is more accurate.
++++ " No Folks, tubes are not obsolete... " +++, why is that? because you like it? or have you real facts that confirm your statement. Which ones?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
I can see that you like it colored sound, not only because tubes but Olympos and the Insider. The Frog is more accurate.
++++ " No Folks, tubes are not obsolete... " +++, why is that? because you like it? or have you real facts that confirm your statement. Which ones?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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