Tube gear obsolete??

[sickophant]

Man, why are you even here? Aren't these all aspects of our desire that we come here to banter about?

No sheet components have their own signals. (that's why I crave a pair of Wilson Watt/Puupy 8's, I want that Wilson signal)

Yes, and my Shinri even has a left and right volume control which drives me nuts. I get banal about their settings to be exactly equal to eachother and scrupulously measure until I'm content. I use my pee nus!

Tubes? Yes, because I like them. Funny that. And I also like a lot of solid-state stuff.

You're good.

Hey, "accurate", "coloured", all tags. I have a couple of very good outfits that, yes, I do enjoy.

Want to buy a bridge?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Dave.

 

[silviajulieta]

Last night while listening to my classic ARC D70Mk2 tube amp and Tube CAT preamp, a thought occurred to me. In some ways tubes are a PITA....LOL As we all know, tubes give off considerable heat, are sometimes difficult to source, can be costly to replace, are prone to numerous failure issues (more than ss) are subject to various construction variables and on and on. OTOH, for me they produce a sound that at the moment most -and perhaps all, ss misses. However, at the rate of improvement that ss gear seems to be enjoying, I wonder how long it will be before owning tube gear is simply not of any benefit whatsoever over its ss competition. Or, is this wishful thinking and ss gear will never match its tube competition.
Ok, let's hear it from the tube camp and the ss camp.

Dear DaveyF: Reading again your thread I would add:


++++ " how long it will be before owning tube gear is simply not of any benefit whatsoever over its ss competition ... " ++++

you speak of " tube benefits " but you don't name it. IMHO there is no real benefits, what there is is a " terrible " misunderstanding on what you tube amp advocates are listening and because that misunderstanding your answers in a " debate " always falls in that: " I like it " with out analize what really means that: " I like it ".

I posted from the begin that it's not important what we like but what is right or wrong when we are trying to enjoy what's in the recording. IMHO tube amp electronics is not only obsolete but plain wrong: it can't handle the real speaker impedance curve.


++++ " Or, is this wishful thinking and ss gear will never match its tube competition " ++++++

SS can't do it and can't do it because makes no sense to have a SS wrong design. The tube amp sound is an " equalized " ( out of your control ) sounds and the SS sound is not equalized, so we can't expect that both technologies performs the same!!!!!. DaveyF, the impedance subject is only the iceberg tip in all the problems that exist in tube technology.

A tube amp ( through an speaker real load. ) function as at random equalizer: adding and substracting SPL dbs all over the speaker frequency range. Please take a look to all those speaker Stereophile measurements and you will see the speaker electrical impedance curve chart that ios a curve because has several up/downs all over the frequency espectrum.

Well, due the high tube amp impedance the response is exactly that: up and down SPL ( dbs. ) response over the wide frequency spectrum. If you want that an SS amp can sounds the same you will need to add an external graphic equalizer to mimic what the tube amp is doing:_ got it?. With the advantage that with an external equalizer you have the control of it and not like with the tube/equalizer where is at random but why any one of you want to hear what is not on the recording, because what a tube amps shows you is not what is in the recording? and SS amp has no frequency deviations, SPL frequency deviations.

Main reason why same tube amp sounds different with different speaker model is that equalize the signal response in different way and according to each one speaker impedance electrical curve.

Unfortunatelly no one can't do it nothing against that Ohm Law.

I hope that now you tube advocates can understand wht that technology is obsolete and wrong: it does not matters that " I like it ", good you like it an equalized sounds.

Can you understand now why I posted all of you are unaware of that fact/distortions/colorations that does not exist in the SS camp?

Please don't blame SS because instead to performs in " wrong " way performs in the right way!!!!!!


Gentlemans, we all are victims of the AHEE. Yes, the AHEE is whom has the culprit that today ( 2013 ) only the high-end market is still promoting that obsolete technology and promoting it because is the " best way " to go!!!.

HAPPY 4 OF JULY !

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I hope that now you tube advocates can understand wht that technology is obsolete and wrong: it does not matters that " I like it ", good you like it an equalized sounds.

Can you understand now why I posted all of you are unaware of that fact/distortions/colorations that does not exist in the SS camp?

Please don't blame SS because instead to performs in " wrong " way performs in the right way!!!!!!


Gentlemans, we all are victims of the AHEE.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,

One of the main questions is your definition of wrong - it is not that of most audiophiles. Enjoy your music and you definition of wrong and right, we enjoy ours.

BTW1, IMHO the equalizer argument due to the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance of the speaker is too poor to be taken seriously in debating tube versus solid state. If you take a SS amplifier and connect an impedance in series to model the output impedance of the tube amplifier you do not get tube sound.

BTW2, consider that some modern tube preamplfiers have SOTA technical performance, comparable with other excellent sounding SS units, and still sound like tubes.

 

[Steve Williams]

Enjoy your music and you definition of wrong and right, we enjoy ours.

I agree. Shouldn't we all be allowed to enjoy the music we like rather than always have someone try to convince us otherwise

 

[mep]

I agree. Shouldn't we all be allowed to enjoy the music we like rather than always have someone try to convince us otherwise

Nope. You must be punished for your happiness. You aren't allowed to have happiness without guilt.

 

[silviajulieta]

Raul,

One of the main questions is your definition of wrong - it is not that of most audiophiles. Enjoy your music and you definition of wrong and right, we enjoy ours.

BTW1, IMHO the equalizer argument due to the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance of the speaker is too poor to be taken seriously in debating tube versus solid state. If you take a SS amplifier and connect an impedance in series to model the output impedance of the tube amplifier you do not get tube sound.

BTW2, consider that some modern tube preamplfiers have SOTA technical performance, comparable with other excellent sounding SS units, and still sound like tubes.

Dear Microstrip: Are you serious?. man this is not personal, I'm not against you or against any today tube advocate ( I remember you that I was for many years a tube lover till I liberated my self from the AHEE chains. ). It's obvious that you are not willing to learn and IMHO you are not willing to learn for no other reasons that: ignorance, that's why you have a defensive attitude.

I understand that because when during all our life the AHEE teached that the " Earth " is flat and we sweares it's flat: what happen when " no one " comes here and tell you that the Earth is not flat but rounded?. Certainly you react and react with no single argument/foundation other than: " I like to believe is flat " , even if in reality is rounded.

I think that this kind of forums main subject to its existene is for all of us can improve our knowledge level and skills in all audio subjects, to help to improve and grow up in favor of the MUSIC enjoyment. To achieve that: we have to be willing to learn.


We all were cheated on the tube amp subject as we all were cheated on the " LOMC only way to go " and we all today still are cheated when the AHEE promoted that analog/LP is better than digital alternatives.


++++ " BTW1, IMHO the equalizer argument due to the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance of the speaker is too poor to be taken seriously... " ++++

this depends on what are your system sound home reproduction targets. If, like me, your targets is to be nearest to the recording loosing and adding the less to the audio signal then any additional signal degradation or signal lost must be avoided in the whole system audio chain. Agree?

First seems to be that you still don't understand the speaker/tube amp overall impedance mistmatc and its results. I think you don't understand yet because what you are posting.

Look, this is only an example to explain it: you have an audio signal that's flat/no frequency deviations and you pass that signal through a SS device and at the other end/output you recieved that audio signal still with no frequency deviations. The target is that: no frequency deviaitons.

Now, you pass the same audio signal through a tube device or other device where at the output you recieved the audio signal severely modified: with frequency deviations ( example ): +1 db at 25hz, +0.5 db at 30hz, -1.5 db at 50hz, +1.5 db at 3 khz, +2.8 db at 400 hz, etc, etc,.

Which one is right and which one is wrong according the target?, obviously the equalized signal.

Well, more or less is what makes any single tube amp working with speakers, working with the speakers load ( impedance curve. ).

IMHO what maybe could be " poor " are your targets, certainly you don't care and don't want to be nearest to the recording: fine with you.

I posted that the speaker/tube amp impedance subject is only the tip of the iceberg. I can go on to prove with facts all the tube technology heavy problems that can tell you easy why is not only an obsolete technology but the wrong one for audio/music home reproduction.

The AHEE was really busy to mantain to hide the facts and the true about. As I posted: we all are victims about.

Microscript: there is no argument in favor of tube amps other than that not serious: " we enjoy ours ". With all respect: that like the " ostrich " you hide in a hole your head does not changes in any way the TRUE: like it or not.

We can't compare tube amps with SS amps only because that: " I like it ", yes you " like it " what is wrong: how can we compare and talk on something that's wrong with something that's right?. Seriously, we can't.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

I agree. Shouldn't we all be allowed to enjoy the music we like rather than always have someone try to convince us otherwise

Dear Steve Williams: Even that I posted that for this thread subject what you, me or any other person like is not important but what is right or wrong you still post: " what we like ", incredible!!!!

In the other side: I don't want to convince any one of you tube amp advocates, I'm only posting facts where is not important what you could think but only what you can prove through REAL facts ( no: " I like it ". ).

Surprised to me that been you an audio distributor you don't share the speaker/tube amp impedance critical subject with your customers. Maybe I'm not so surprised because you are important part of the AHEE.

A TUBE AMP WORKING WITH A REAL SPEAKER ALWAYS FUNCTION AS A NON-CONTROLED GRAPHIC EQUALIZER.

That statement means that the Earth is rounded, Steve Williams which your statement to prove that the EARTH is flat?

As a fact, not only through your post but through other posts I read no one argument/fact that can prove the " Earth is Flat ". So, Earth continue to be rounded, fortunatelly!!!!


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

Raul,

you are of course perfectly correct that a transformer coupled power amp is not going to produce a better replica of the signal when compared to a solid state voltage feedback power amp.

of course, you also know that it is impossible for two stereo speakers to repicate the live event. So, we are left with a strereo system that "creates" its own interpretation, by that i mean it is wrong, inaccurate, etc. It is not accurate, you must understand this point!!!

many audiophiles are not impressed with this stereo interpretation, and they seek a "change" to the sound. So, many prefer the contrast to the sound that the "incorrect" tube power amplifier produces.

it is a matter of preference.

of course, you do not agree with TAS premise that plain old flawed stereo goal is to sound like the live event, when plain old stereo is not a system that can do that................if you want to claim technical expertise in the subject of stereo, you need to start at the beginning of the flawed concept, then what others preferences are is easier to understand

Dear Tomelex: I always speak on " what is in the recording ", I'm not so " stupid " to think we can mimic a live event. This is what I posted:

++++ " targets is to be nearest to the recording loosing and adding the less to the audio signal " +++++


If that is our target there is no single doubt that today the best way to achieve it is through SS alternative.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[Steve Williams]

Dear Steve Williams: Even that I posted that for this thread subject what you, me or any other person like is not important but what is right or wrong you still post: " what we like ", incredible!!!!

In the other side: I don't want to convince any one of you tube amp advocates, I'm only posting facts where is not important what you could think but only what you can prove through REAL facts ( no: " I like it ". ).

Surprised to me that been you an audio distributor you don't share the speaker/tube amp impedance critical subject with your customers. Maybe I'm not so surprised because you are important part of the AHEE.

A TUBE AMP WORKING WITH A REAL SPEAKER ALWAYS FUNCTION AS A NON-CONTROLED GRAPHIC EQUALIZER.

That statement means that the Earth is rounded, Steve Williams which your statement to prove that the EARTH is flat?

As a fact, not only through your post but through other posts I read no one argument/fact that can prove the " Earth is Flat ". So, Earth continue to be rounded, fortunatelly!!!!


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul

you're preaching to the choir.

I am relaxed. I am enjoying the music and wouldn't have mine any other way. I'm sure you feel the same about yours and I say great cuz that's what makes the world go round. Your arguments Raul have grown stale as you march from forum to forum espousing the same stuff over and over ad nauseum but that's just the way I see it

 

[mep]

Wow. Where to begin...I guess I will start here:

many audiophiles are not impressed with this stereo interpretation, and they seek a "change" to the sound. So, many prefer the contrast to the sound that the "incorrect" tube power amplifier produces.

People buy tube amplifiers because they don't like the sound of stereo? Really? If only we had your version of audio nirvana which I guess is binaural which doesn't work in the real world over a pair of speakers then people wouldn't want to own tube amps? Do you really believe that?

I'm still trying to figure out whether you really hate stereo or you really hate your stereo. You get tired of listening to your Hafler amp(s) and you switch over to some SET amp to get another flavor and then you flip back over to your Hafler when you get sick of the syrup. Most audiophiles make attempts over the years to improve the sound and quality of their systems as resources permit. I believe your system is still primarily rooted in the very early 1980s except for your SET amp whose roots are in the 1940s. Please tell me if I'm mistaken lest I get accused of stereotyping you as someone who has held onto their stereo gear for many, many years and those old components still makes up their main system.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Steve Williams: ++++ " Raul have grown stale as you march from forum to forum espousing the same stuff over and over ad nauseum... " ++++

I remember you that was DaveyF who asked about not me. I'm only gave my opinion that's the same from when I learned. I have no single reason/fact to change it yet.

At nauseum?: you don't have to read it less to post about.

Certainly you are not willing to improve but to stay sticky in that " cancer " and you trumpeted on your cancer: IMHO: you are already " dead " for music sound reproduction. I can't do nothing to help you and no one can.

Steve Williams: do you know what means: common sense ? do you know what means: 2+2=4?, yes?
well that's the same to understand the tube amps subject. I'm sure it's not dificult to understand that through tube amps: 2+2 is not equal to 4 but to an unknow number.
Why is so dificult to you to understand the: tube amp/speaker non-match impedances in between makes the tube amp function as a non-controled graphic equalizer?

MR. WILLIAMS WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS WHERE ARE YOUR REAL ARGUMENTS ?????

please post it!!!!!! IMHO your posts helps to no one and to nothing and are the same posts " at nauseum ". Agree?



Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[DaveyF]

One thing that perhaps we can all agree on is that whatever technology gets us closer to our perception of what we believe the "real" sounds like, that is the technology that we would prefer. Raul's arguments are faulty, due to the fact that at this present time, no one technology has completely solved the problem of reproducing the sound of live instruments in an acoustic space, to such an extent that there is no discernible difference between the live event and the reproduced event ( therefore, ss is just as problematic or perhaps more so, in regards to "distortions" ) . If we are talking of "distortions", which seemingly is a VERY loosely understood term ( my perception of distortion may not be Raul's and vice versa) then all gear elicits those...both ss and tube. The main difference here, which if I give Raul the benefit of the doubt again, and what I think he is attempting to get across, is that from a measurement stand point, ss is more accurate. At least to our expectations and current understanding of things to measure.
Each topology has a specific sound, to most a'philes ( myself included) tubes offer a sound that is closer to their perception of the "real" than ss. Have i heard ss gear that sounds excellent...absolutely, but more often when utilized in the amp section than the preamp section. My original question in the OP still applies.

 

[Steve Williams]

Raul


I love my tubes. It's a simple as that. I did have an excellent solid state system which I really liked. I just happen to like tubes better. I hope that makes sense

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear DaveyF: Please read my post to Tomelex.

Anyway, after all those posts in the thread I can see that now you are " willing " to discuss the subject with a better attitude even that my posts goes against the amp technology you are using today, good!. We are " walking ".

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Tomelex: ++++ " then what others preferences are is easier to understand .... " +++++

the issue is that I'm not talking of preferences as Steve Williams is still thinking I'm. ????????


regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[DaveyF]

Raul, your entitled to your opinion. Just as I am entitled to mine. I do NOT think that anyone here has stated anything different. OTOH, you seem to be adopting an 'Attitude' that is saying to the members...My way is the right way, and IF you don't believe in that you are a) ignorant and/or b) not experienced enough to understand my comments.

Steve's well taken point, which I think you may want to reflect upon a little more before posting again, is that you are NOT the only "expert" a'phile here. Your opinion is valued, BUT remember it is your opinion and nothing more. To go and attempt to belittle other poster's for not agreeing with you is NOT IMHO very appropriate.

I know you are translating from Spanish ( which i commend you for doing), which is giving you a disadvantage, BUT do try and comprehend my points.

 

[silviajulieta]

Raul


I love my tubes. It's a simple as that. I did have an excellent solid state system which I really liked. I just happen to like tubes better. I hope that makes sense

Dear Steve Williams: I posted to you this statement:

++++ " Even that I posted that for this thread subject what you, me or any other person like is not important but what is right or wrong you still post: " what we like ", incredible!!!! " +++++++



please let me know which word or why you don't understand it? because you are at " nauseum " posting the same; the same, the same wrong answer!!!!!!!!!!


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear DaveyF: ++++ " BUT remember it is your opinion and nothing more... " +++++ really?

no, it is not my opinion is the OHM opinion. I'm just explain it. I'm not entitled as you said it.

I'm always willing to learn nad as a fact I learned through this thread but do you know why I always learn?:

because I'm entitled with nothing, I'm always open to change my knowledge level and skills if permit that I improve and grow up for the better MUSIC enjoyment.

I never have the " ostrich " attitude that helps for nothing.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[microstrip]

++++ " BTW1, IMHO the equalizer argument due to the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance of the speaker is too poor to be taken seriously... " ++++

this depends on what are your system sound home reproduction targets. If, like me, your targets is to be nearest to the recording loosing and adding the less to the audio signal then any additional signal degradation or signal lost must be avoided in the whole system audio chain. (...) .

No my target is NOT to be nearest to the recording loosing and adding the less to the audio signal. Sorry to disappoint you. If so I would not listen to my speakers - I would look in the LP grooves using a microscope or perhaps look at the '0's and '1's directly. Do you know Édouard-Léon Scott de Martinville?

If you are interested in reading another perspective of sound reproduction please read the manual of of the Pass XL SS amplifiers. Nelson Pass says it much better than me:

If you are concerned that your power amplifier (or anything else for that matter) is as objectively and technically accurate as possible,
that is a perfectly legitimate criterion. You will certainly find many products in the marketplace that excel at conventional objective
performance, and most of them are much cheaper.

Our real customers care most about the experience they get when they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste. We want our products to invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy
the experience so much that you go through your entire record collection - again and again. This, by the way, is a very strong
indicator.

https://passlabs.com/images/uploads/manual/Xs_amp_om.pdf


IMHO this applies to SS and tubes.

Enjoy the recording, I will go on enjoying the music.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Tomelex: I agree to disagree. The best a home audio system can do to reproduce what's in a recorded LP/CD is to reproduce it exactly/mimic as is in the recording. Well, that audio system does not exist yet but for a moment say it exist: so, what could be the main charactersitic that that " perfect " audio system must has it?:

first than all: accuracy/accurate. Live music is and has accurate/accuracy.

In the other side, accuracy is not against MUSIC enjoyment, as a fact is part of it.

Btw, I'm not a technical person as you could think. I'm more an " explorer ", time to time I like to think " out of the box " and several tiimes I did it I discovered that many information I learned were wrong.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.