Tube gear obsolete??

[silviajulieta]

Well, if 100% control accuracy is just frequency response I am more exigent - I regularly measure FR and distortion of my equipment to check for its condition, not sound quality. What else do you measure in your system?

Dear Microstrip: The measurements I showed was not only measures but something more critical an important and you don't took in count yet. With out knowing why make measurements and its meaning it's almost useless.

Why are important/critical those RIAA deviation measurements?:

the main reason why exist and why we need a Phono Stage is because the recorded audio signal comes with a de-emphasis RIAA equalization and trhough the PS that audio signal has to pass for the inverse proccess: a inverse RIAA equalization to achieve again a dead flat frequency. This is the main reason for the PS existence, then comes other as the gain, low noise, imoedance loading facilities and the like.

Well, a decent/top PS design ( tube or SS ) must shows a RIAA eq. deviation: 20hz to 20 khz +,- 0.1db. In the links below you can read what very small RIAA deviation ( fractions of a db. ) makes. Those small RIAA deviations affect 2-3 octaves due that the RIAA is not linear but a curve.

Well, that level of accuracy ( 0.1db. ) is a must like is a must that a piano or a guitar be in tune What makes an Orchestra concertino before start a piano/orchestra play: he goes to the piano and gives the tone for all the orcvhestra members put in tune its instruments. Well this is accuracy and that's why we need that accuracy level in any PS.

You already seen in what I linked that the Halcro and Dartzeel are out of that accuracy and that in bothy units the RIAA eq. is different when must be exactly the same, not only the units response is colored/distorted but distorted in different way in both channels. No, don't think for a moment that RIAA accuracy is an easy task because it's not, you can see on next links even with 60K+ units:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/leben-rs-30eq-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-3-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/abbingdon-music-research-ph-77-phono-equaliser-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...rpiece-series-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.lammindustries.com/PICS/LP2/modified/fig_5b_6.jpg
http://www.stereophile.com/content/ear-834p-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/aesthetix-rhea-phono-preamplifier-measurements


Do you know how measures your unit?, the unit I'm using has a deviation of: 0.012 db in both channels. This is for me accuracy and more important : need it by the recorded audio signal.

We have what to measure, obviously that because an amp must works with an speakers the main measure must be: output impedance.


regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[mep]

pick your poision two more cascaded tube stages or the free gain SUTs offer, and yes they have their detractors but not all SUTs are created equal - even Rowland uses them now and he plays with superior distortion-free SS devices - just ask Raul

the guy who bought my Zesto Andros posted his ARC Ref phono2 for sale the next day...and he's a Lyra nut. I moved on to the Ares which is mo' betta in my system and its a ridiculous bargain to boot.

There is no such thing as "free gain" or a "free lunch." SUTs add their own flavor to the sound. Some people like that flavor and some don't.

 

[MylesBAstor]

pick your poision two more cascaded tube stages or the free gain SUTs offer, and yes they have their detractors but not all SUTs are created equal - even Rowland uses them now and he plays with superior distortion-free SS devices - just ask Raul

Let's not and say we did.

Clearly SUTs are popular in Asia and the Allnic may be one of the better ones.

the guy who bought my Zesto Andros posted his ARC Ref phono2 for sale the next day...and he's a Lyra nut. I moved on to the Ares which is mo' betta in my system and its a ridiculous bargain to boot.

There must be some more to the story.

 

[puroagave]

There is no such thing as "free gain" or a "free lunch." SUTs add their own flavor to the sound. Some people like that flavor and some don't.

I can bypass the SUT and the only diffrence i can detect is that of the cartridges used (Denon 103 .28mv vs Allaerts MC1 .5mv). what i dont hear is excess grain when you ask tubes to do too much.

 

[puroagave]

Let's not and say we did.

Clearly SUTs are popular in Asia and the Allnic may be one of the better ones.

we must be regressing then, i can't think of 3 high-end phono stages from 20-yrs ago with built-in SUTs and now there seems to be a good dozen on the market.

 

[MylesBAstor]

we must be regressing then, i can't think of 3 high-end phono stages from 20-yrs ago with built-in SUTs and now there seems to be a good dozen on the market.

Well there were tons of external head amps though back then. Now they're just built in.

 

[mep]

we must be regressing then, i can't think of 3 high-end phono stages from 20-yrs ago with built-in SUTs and now there seems to be a good dozen on the market.

It's a cheap way to obtain gain for MC cartridges.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Microstrip: The measurements I showed was not only measures but something more critical an important and you don't took in count yet. With out knowing why make measurements and its meaning it's almost useless.

Why are important/critical those RIAA deviation measurements?:

the main reason why exist and why we need a Phono Stage is because the recorded audio signal comes with a de-emphasis RIAA equalization and trhough the PS that audio signal has to pass for the inverse proccess: a inverse RIAA equalization to achieve again a dead flat frequency. This is the main reason for the PS existence, then comes other as the gain, low noise, imoedance loading facilities and the like.

Well, a decent/top PS design ( tube or SS ) must shows a RIAA eq. deviation: 20hz to 20 khz +,- 0.1db. In the links below you can read what very small RIAA deviation ( fractions of a db. ) makes. Those small RIAA deviations affect 2-3 octaves due that the RIAA is not linear but a curve.

Well, that level of accuracy ( 0.1db. ) is a must like is a must that a piano or a guitar be in tune What makes an Orchestra concertino before start a piano/orchestra play: he goes to the piano and gives the tone for all the orcvhestra members put in tune its instruments. Well this is accuracy and that's why we need that accuracy level in any PS.

You already seen in what I linked that the Halcro and Dartzeel are out of that accuracy and that in bothy units the RIAA eq. is different when must be exactly the same, not only the units response is colored/distorted but distorted in different way in both channels. No, don't think for a moment that RIAA accuracy is an easy task because it's not, you can see on next links even with 60K+ units:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/leben-rs-30eq-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-3-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/abbingdon-music-research-ph-77-phono-equaliser-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...rpiece-series-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.lammindustries.com/PICS/LP2/modified/fig_5b_6.jpg
http://www.stereophile.com/content/ear-834p-phono-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/aesthetix-rhea-phono-preamplifier-measurements


Do you know how measures your unit?, the unit I'm using has a deviation of: 0.012 db in both channels. This is for me accuracy and more important : need it by the recorded audio signal.

We have what to measure, obviously that because an amp must works with an speakers the main measure must be: output impedance.


regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I fail to understand why you need a .012 dB accuracy in your phono unit. Do you also have it in your phono cartridge and speakers?

I suggest you read some old documents about the NAB equalization of tape units that were used to create the masters of your great LPs - they did not have such accuracy.

 

[Steve Williams]

I fail to understand why you need a .012 dB accuracy in your phono unit. Do you also have it in your phono cartridge and speakers?

I suggest you read some old documents about the NAB equalization of tape units that were used to create the masters of your great LPs - they did not have such accuracy.

I guess the other consideration is the room.It won't matter a hoot how accurate your gear is if your room has shortcomings

 

[puroagave]

It's a cheap way to obtain gain for MC cartridges.

it cant be less than four op amps, thats basically what you get with highly touted SS phono amps like the Sutherland among many others.

 

[puroagave]

I fail to understand why you need a .012 dB accuracy in your phono unit. Do you also have it in your phono cartridge and speakers?

I suggest you read some old documents about the NAB equalization of tape units that were used to create the masters of your great LPs - they did not have such accuracy.

peter ledermann who i consider a leading expert talks about deviations in feq response to be far less audible than other distortions in the amplification chain. its his strain gauge cartridges raison d'être which has a poor feq response compared to your average RIAA stage.

 

[silviajulieta]

I fail to understand why you need a .012 dB accuracy in your phono unit. Do you also have it in your phono cartridge and speakers?

I suggest you read some old documents about the NAB equalization of tape units that were used to create the masters of your great LPs - they did not have such accuracy.

Dear Microstrip: Are you trying to tell me that because a speaker has a 5db frequency deviation you have not to take care in any other audio link till does not goes over 5dbs? then there is

Accuracy means lower colorations/distortions and more faithfull to the recording. Following your/Steve way of thinking then it's not important for the Concertino to ask the orchestra members to be in tune due the hall interactions. !!!!!!!!!!!!????????? So, you don't care if a trumpet can sounds as a sax.

Music is accurate and an audio system first than all must be accurate: don't tell me that you don't care if your TT spins at 36 rpm instead 331/3 rpm.

If you read my posts somewhere I said that my target is that the recorded audio signal be reproduced ( through the audio system chain. ) with the lower signal degradation and this means that at each system audio link we have to take care for the audio signal lost the less and added the less.
To achieve or to be nearest to that system target you need first than all: accuracy at each single system audio link and that's why I prefer 0.012 db against 2 db.

Through that/my RIAA eq. the recorded signal goes out/pass with almost no coloration/distortion/lost-added in both channels: at least at that PS stage.

It's obvious ( I already posted here. ) that we are accustom to heavy colorations/distortions and that's why you almost don't care about. That you like system audio link's " clowns " does not means is right, only means that that is what you like even that's wrong.

For my self I prefer and enjoy more and more and always try to look for what's right because the enjoyment MUSIC level is way way more enjoyable that when is wrong.

I posted: we all are victims of the infame AHEE.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[mep]

I simply have to stop laughing before I fall out of my chair. At least when Raul dishes out a beat-down to you, he ends your beating with "Regards and enjoy the music." I can't stop laughing, I swear.

 

[silviajulieta]

peter ledermann who i consider a leading expert talks about deviations in feq response to be far less audible than other distortions in the amplification chain. its his strain gauge cartridges raison d'être which has a poor feq response compared to your average RIAA stage.

Dear puroagave: Through the PS the inverse RIAA eq. amplify nothing and that's why is so easy to detect RIAA deviations and because happened through a curve: it's not linear. Please read the Atkinson comments on those RIAA measurements linked.

That some persons are not trained to detect frequency deviations during amplification does not means it can't do it. Frequency deeviations happen in a context, are not " independent/aisle " at one frequency, example: if you tell me if I can detect a change of 0.5db on 434 hz through a " musical event/melody/composition " at a determined time it's happening I can tell you I can't detect it but the audio system deviations are accumulative in the same frequency range and we detected as colorations.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[Ron Party]

Hi Raul!

Nice to see you are posting again. You went away for a while but I'm glad to see you back again.

I agree 100 percent with the position you are trying to advocate for the simple reason that I too believe that high fidelity means trying to be as faithful to the recording as possible. The recording is all that we have and is what the talent (i.e., the musicians, mastering engineer, etc.) has given to us. I would love to hear your system one day; I bet it sounds fantastic.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Microstrip: Are you trying to tell me that because a speaker has a 5db frequency deviation you have not to take care in any other audio link till does not goes over 5dbs? then there is (...)

No Raul, I have never said so. I was commenting your finding that .012 db is much better than .1 dB but just found that your argumentation is almost exclusively based in "please do not tell me that (and you write here some stupidity that I have not said) " and repetition.

Please enjoy your accuracy - I am out before the next " Please do not tell me ..."

 

[andromedaaudio]

Silviajullieta do you have a inroom FR response of your loudspeaker and what kind are you using ???
If you want accuracy in your system there lies the gain , not in amps .

 

[Steve Williams]

Silviajullieta do you have a in room FR response of your loudspeaker and what kind are you using ???
If you want accuracy in your system there lies the gain , not in amps .

This plus the room IMO

 

[silviajulieta]

It's a cheap way to obtain gain for MC cartridges.

Dear Mep: It's a cheap way and certainly we can't ask for stellar quality performance. All SUTs have problems at both frequency extremes, difference in between is how good each one performs at those frequency extremes.

If we go to the old times when LOMC appeared and revise manufacturers of LOMC we will find out that every single manufacturer of LOMC manufactured too its respective SUT: Fidelity Research, Denon, Highphonic, Ortofon, Audiocraft, Audio technica/Signet, Koetsu, Sony, Yamaha, Dynavector, Accuphase and many more.

Because of that the Phonolinepreamp designers/manufacturers does not worried to design active high gain units ( especially tube ones. ) but used SUTs or left that the customer add an external SUT into his MM phono stage.

Certainly for what you posted and several other reasons LOMC cartridges were not designed for tube phono stages and I can add not even MM ones.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[MylesBAstor]

No Raul, I have never said so. I was commenting your finding that .012 db is much better than .1 dB but just found that your argumentation is almost exclusively based in "please do not tell me that (and you write here some stupidity that I have not said) " and repetition.

Please enjoy your accuracy - I am out before the next " Please do not tell me ..."

And if I repeat it a million times--no matter how ridiculous--it becomes fact.

Raul just loves arguing for the sake of arguing. The whole world is wrong and he is right. Talk about battling windmills.