Tube gear obsolete??

What's the sign that output tubes need to be replaced? Something audible or is it more like they aren't holding their voltage (e.g. bias slips often).

I'm still 'new' to tube amps and am wondering...

Hi Madfloyd,

Myles and micro offer excellent points of reference. I would add, if possible, to maintain a reference set of tubes. Substitute a tubes(s) from this reference set, occasionally, and compare - aurally. If you observe a difference which doesn't agree with you, then you might consider exchanging the tube(s). Of course, it would be good practice to inspect the tube pins to ensure a fouled pin(s) isn't the cause of diminished performance. :)
 
Hi Madfloyd,

Myles and micro offer excellent points of reference. I would add, if possible, to maintain a reference set of tubes. Substitute a tubes(s) from this reference set, occasionally, and compare - aurally. If you observe a difference which doesn't agree with you, then you might consider exchanging the tube(s). Of course, it would be good practice to inspect the tube pins to ensure a fouled pin(s) isn't the cause of diminished performance. :)

This isn't a bad idea, Sam. OTOH, you obviously haven't owned too many of the ARC tube amps. For example, to replace tubes in my ARC amp requires a re-bias. That basically means a tech has to be called in to risk his ( or her...are there ANY electronic tech's that are ladies:confused::confused:) life with the biasing procedure, OR one can try oneself, BUT the likelihood is VERY strong that you plug in your tester to the board and not only blow up your amp...BUT BLOW YOURSELF UP as well:mad:. My tech told me that he thought ARC should have been under criminal investigation for the biasing scheme on my amp:eek: ( and apparently this applies to many other ARC pieces of the past as well:(). I guess the biasing procedure on you BAT amps does NOT entail a risk to one's health like my ARC, LOL
 
Davey -- WOW! I was unaware of ARC biasing procedure :eek:
The BAT is autobias :cool:
 
(...) My tech told me that he thought ARC should have been under criminal investigation for the biasing scheme on my amp:eek: ( and apparently this applies to many other ARC pieces of the past as well:().(...)

Does your tech have any justification for such a claim? Are you addressing the D70Mk2? As far as I remember from mine it was a child affair to bias. Surely adjusting bias in amplifiers that do not have inbuilt meters assumes that the child knows about HV safety and has insulated tools. ;)
 
Micro, I am referring to my D series amp, and for that matter all D series amps. Also, to the VT series amps and apparently several others from different vintages. I'm not sure about the current crop, BUT I can tell you, these older amps are ANYTHING BUT child's play to bias. ( Unless of course, you want to get rid of your child once and for all:eek:, LOL).
 
Micro, I am referring to my D series amp, and for that matter all D series amps. Also, to the VT series amps and apparently several others from different vintages. I'm not sure about the current crop, BUT I can tell you, these older amps are ANYTHING BUT child's play to bias. ( Unless of course, you want to get rid of your child once and for all:eek:, LOL).

Are you referring also to the D70 mk2? You can check bias current of the power tubes without even opening the amplifier.
 
Are you referring also to the D70 mk2? You can check bias current of the power tubes without even opening the amplifier.

Francisco-We have been down that road with you before with the method you used to bias the D-70 MKII which is not how the owner's manual states to bias the amp and your method was not endorsed by ARC if memory serves me correctly. With regards to all "D" models of ARC amps being dangerous or even hard to bias, Davey is incorrect. The D-76 was a finger burner in that you had to insert a 1/4" jack between a pair of 6550s that were/are spaced very closely together. ARC *fixed* that problem with the D-76A by installing the 1/4" jack upside down so that now you had to remove the bottom cover and standoffs that fell out and turn your amp upside down to bias it. The D-79 series couldn't have been any easier to bias. Everything you need to bias the D-79 series is contained or accessible from the front panel: Meter, switch for output tubes, and the bias pots. The biasing procedure for the VT-100 series was just flat insane which is why Kevin Deal will not sell anyone any tubes for the VT-100 series of amps-don't even ask. The D-150 should have been a snap too.
 
Francisco-We have been down that road with you before with the method you used to bias the D-70 MKII which is not how the owner's manual states to bias the amp and your method was not endorsed by ARC if memory serves me correctly. With regards to all "D" models of ARC amps being dangerous or even hard to bias, Davey is incorrect. The D-76 was a finger burner in that you had to insert a 1/4" jack between a pair of 6550s that were/are spaced very closely together. ARC *fixed* that problem with the D-76A by installing the 1/4" jack upside down so that now you had to remove the bottom cover and standoffs that fell out and turn your amp upside down to bias it. The D-79 series couldn't have been any easier to bias. Everything you need to bias the D-79 series is contained or accessible from the front panel: Meter, switch for output tubes, and the bias pots. The biasing procedure for the VT-100 series was just flat insane which is why Kevin Deal will not sell anyone any tubes for the VT-100 series of amps-don't even ask. The D-150 should have been a snap too.

Mark,

And even if we have a safe method to set bias people who claim to have technical knowledge will go on denigrating the amplifier as unsafe based on a manual that is thirty years old. Even Kevin Deal never said why he refused to sell tubes for the VT-100. I can guess why, but since as he never said the real reason, no one can really know and debate it. I can easily accept that once you have devices operating at 450V you can have some safety issues, but IMHO if you point an issue you should be able to document it - not just stating that "my cousin who is an expert told me that my life is in danger ... :) " .
 
Micro, I cannot believe that I am agreeing at all with Mark:eek:, But if you think biasing an ARC D70Mk2 is an easy matter or for that matter appropriate for the consumer, I say you're out of your mind. My friend's old VT100Mk3 was also just a MAJOR pain in this department. Our tech, who BTW, is an authorized tech for Mac gear in S.Calif, was NOT pleased at all with the scheme to bias these amps...and he has over 20 years in the biz.
To expect a consumer ( particularly one who is just a hobbyist and not an electronics tech...which is MOST likely going to be the Buyer demographic) to go through the complicated and potentially dangerous procedure to re-bias an amp is IMHO completely irresponsible and in-excusable on ARC's behalf. Let's put it this way, as my friend once described a scenario to me; say a young a'phile buys these amps and takes it upon himself to do the biasing, BUT poor soul goes and kills himself in the process....is that ok? Shouldn't have attempted it in the first place you say..:(
 
Micro, I cannot believe that I am agreeing at all with Mark:eek:, But if you think biasing an ARC D70Mk2 is an easy matter or for that matter appropriate for the consumer, I say you're out of your mind. My friend's old VT100Mk3 was also just a MAJOR pain in this department. Our tech, who BTW, is an authorized tech for Mac gear in S.Calif, was NOT pleased at all with the scheme to bias these amps...and he has over 20 years in the biz.
To expect a consumer ( particularly one who is just a hobbyist and not an electronics tech...which is MOST likely going to be the Buyer demographic) to go through the complicated and potentially dangerous procedure to re-bias an amp is IMHO completely irresponsible and in-excusable on ARC's behalf. Let's put it this way, as my friend once described a scenario to me; say a young a'phile buys these amps and takes it upon himself to do the biasing, BUT poor soul goes and kills himself in the process....is that ok? Shouldn't have attempted it in the first place you say..:(

wow Dave, do want some cheese to go with that whine?? sheeesh...(jus kindin;))

yes the d70 and d115 are a bitch to bias i once owned both and i had kentron at the 'evil' store do it. afaik, those amps were overly complicated with tube rectifiers and twice the parts count of a competently designed tube amp of today. An ARC ref75 looks barren inside compared to the d70.
 
wow Dave, do want some cheese to go with that whine?? sheeesh...(jus kindin;))

yes the d70 and d115 are a bitch to bias i once owned both and i had kentron at the 'evil' store do it. afaik, those amps were overly complicated with tube rectifiers and twice the parts count of a competently designed tube amp of today. An ARC ref75 looks barren inside compared to the d70.


Rob, that ain't whining, jes telling it like it is. :D
Just so I'm clear, I absolutely LOVE my ARC D70MK2, it is one of the best tube amps in the lower power ranges that I have heard. Like you said it is complicated compared to the Ref75...BUT I think the tube rectifier is a BIG plus in this amp. The D70MK2 is IMHO one of the best to come from ARC..too bad the biasing is a bitch.
 
Rob, that ain't whining, jes telling it like it is. :D
Just so I'm clear, I absolutely LOVE my ARC D70MK2, it is one of the best tube amps in the lower power ranges that I have heard. Like you said it is complicated compared to the Ref75...BUT I think the tube rectifier is a BIG plus in this amp. The D70MK2 is IMHO one of the best to come from ARC..too bad the biasing is a bitch.

Rob and Davey-What tube rectifier in the D-70 MKII?? There is no tube rectifier in the D-70 MKII. There is a 6550 used as a series regulator for the B+, but there is no tube rectifier.
 
Rob and Davey-What tube rectifier in the D-70 MKII?? There is no tube rectifier in the D-70 MKII. There is a 6550 used as a series regulator for the B+, but there is no tube rectifier.

you're probably right, my bad. its been 25 yrs since ive owned one. i had the 115 in the late nineties, luckily i didnt keep it long enough to pay the re-tube on that beast with something like 17 tubes in it.
 
you're probably right, my bad. its been 25 yrs since ive owned one. i had the 115 in the late nineties, luckily i didnt keep it long enough to pay the re-tube on that beast with something like 17 tubes in it.

My ARC Ref lll Mkll and ARC Ref600 Mklll had 70 tubes to change
 
I don't think changing tubes in most tube amps is an annual occurrence...at least it shouldn't be. I know Sam may not agree...But:p
OTOH, it certainly is a factor in the ss vs. tube debate which brings me back OT. My ss amp is without doubt a LOT more user friendly and gives me a LOT less paranoia. ( although I'm sure the fact that I use
a tube amp that is now going to be 30 years old is a factor there:D).
An interesting point that Rob brought up, is the fact that a lot of newer tube gear is now able to use far fewer parts along with being FAR more user friendly than in anytime in the past. I think this bodes well for tube gear, BUT I still ask my original question...is Tube gear obsolete and IF not then when?
 
Micro, I cannot believe that I am agreeing at all with Mark:eek:, But if you think biasing an ARC D70Mk2 is an easy matter or for that matter appropriate for the consumer, I say you're out of your mind. My friend's old VT100Mk3 was also just a MAJOR pain in this department. Our tech, who BTW, is an authorized tech for Mac gear in S.Calif, was NOT pleased at all with the scheme to bias these amps...and he has over 20 years in the biz.
To expect a consumer ( particularly one who is just a hobbyist and not an electronics tech...which is MOST likely going to be the Buyer demographic) to go through the complicated and potentially dangerous procedure to re-bias an amp is IMHO completely irresponsible and in-excusable on ARC's behalf. Let's put it this way, as my friend once described a scenario to me; say a young a'phile buys these amps and takes it upon himself to do the biasing, BUT poor soul goes and kills himself in the process....is that ok? Shouldn't have attempted it in the first place you say..:(

Well, you have not supplied any evidence why setting the bias in the D70 mk2 is so specially dangerous - only loud words until now. Can you give us more details?

I have supplied a good and safe recipe in the past - disconnect the speakers, connect the negative lead of your voltmeter to the 4 ohm tap, and measure the voltage at the 0 and 16 ohms. Adjust two internal potentiometers that are easily accessible for the proper voltage at these points. It is done. Re-check the voltages any time.

Now for those who believe in ohm´s law - the D70 is partially cathode coupled and the middle point of the transformer is connected to ground (the 4 ohm tap in most ARC amplifiers). As the transformer windings have a fixed resistance, measuring the voltage at these points allows quick determination of bias current without opening the amplifier. You just have to multiply it by an adequate scale factor.

BTW, all ARC (and most tube equipment manuals) refer that touching any component can be lethal - as they say cause injury or death. I can not understand why this special anger towards ARC, based in a thirty years old amplifier. Most thinks that were considered normal and acceptable at that time are nowadays not allowed.

BTW2 I am addressing only the D70 mk2 - not other amplifiers of ARC I do not have experience with.
 

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Micro-If you bias the D70 MKII according to the instructions from ARC, there are test points on top of the amp behind the tubes with exposed high voltage that you have to reach over and use meter leads that clip onto the test points. You previously posted your method for biasing the D-70 MKII a long time ago on WBF and someone else came back and "attacked" your method and said it wasn't correct or endorsed by ARC or something along those lines. I'm not going to go on a fishing expedition to find it, but it's on this forum somewhere. But back to the main point, setting the bias on the D-70 MKII in accordance with the owner's manual is not for the faint of heart.

I'm convinced that ARC wacky bias schemes were meant to give business to the service department of ARC dealers back in the days of dealers having service departments. As for the VT-100 series, the reason that Kevin Deal will hang up on you if you call him and ask him to sell you a set of tubes for the VT-100 amps is simple: They are a nightmare to bias correctly and if improperly done the output tubes will be roached in short order. This isn't a simple plug a meter into a jack and turn a screw until the bias reads correctly on your handy-dandy Fluke meter. Check around the web for biasing instructions for the VT-100 and you will begin to understand the stupidity involved in this scheme or maybe you will marvel at its brilliance. This involves turning the amp on and letting it warm up and then turning it off and removing the top plates and both side plates. The driver tubes have to be set up perfectly and then you go for the output tubes if memory serves me correctly. You really need two meters to pull this job off efficiently and correctly. This isn't a job for Tommy Ten Thumbs and his $15 Rat Shack meter.
 
Micro-If you bias the D70 MKII according to the instructions from ARC, there are test points on top of the amp behind the tubes with exposed high voltage that you have to reach over and use meter leads that clip onto the test points. You previously posted your method for biasing the D-70 MKII a long time ago on WBF and someone else came back and "attacked" your method and said it wasn't correct or endorsed by ARC or something along those lines. I'm not going to go on a fishing expedition to find it, but it's on this forum somewhere. But back to the main point, setting the bias on the D-70 MKII in accordance with the owner's manual is not for the faint of heart.

I'm convinced that ARC wacky bias schemes were meant to give business to the service department of ARC dealers back in the days of dealers having service departments. As for the VT-100 series, the reason that Kevin Deal will hang up on you if you call him and ask him to sell you a set of tubes for the VT-100 amps is simple: They are a nightmare to bias correctly and if improperly done the output tubes will be roached in short order. This isn't a simple plug a meter into a jack and turn a screw until the bias reads correctly on your handy-dandy Fluke meter. Check around the web for biasing instructions for the VT-100 and you will begin to understand the stupidity involved in this scheme or maybe you will marvel at its brilliance. This involves turning the amp on and letting it warm up and then turning it off and removing the top plates and both side plates. The driver tubes have to be set up perfectly and then you go for the output tubes if memory serves me correctly. You really need two meters to pull this job off efficiently and correctly. This isn't a job for Tommy Ten Thumbs and his $15 Rat Shack meter.

The person who attacked my method stating it was not correct did not even know that the D70 used partially cathode coupled output transformers and logically could not understand my post. When I supplied technical details and a schematic, he never replied.

I love when people drift threads because they are not able to debate technicalities of the other poster. As far as I know the VT100 is not a D series amplifier and my posts are clearly addressing the D70 that DaveyF owns and loves. And I still do not know why measuring a small voltage in two grounded test points is a criminal offense. Surely adjusting an open amplifier switched on with 450V inside is not for Tommy Ten Thumbs - neither in an ARC or any other of the hundreds of amplifiers that do not have meters or indicators built-in or a jack to connect them.
 
Francisco-The voltage you are measuring is small, but the neck of the woods you are in when you are clipping on your test leads has exposed voltages present that aren't so small. Who is thread drifting? The VT-100 series is surely not a "D" series amp, but this thread started talking about problems associated with having to set the bias on certain amplifiers. Coming up with a clever and easy way to set bias has been done correctly since the beginning of tube amplifier time. Marantz did in the 1950s by building in a meter to the top of the amp and everything you needed to adjust the bias quickly. ARC has repeatedly shown that they too can do it, they just kept weaving all over the place with regards to making it simple to making it a science experiment. There is no need for wacky bias schemes, really there isn't. Those that use them should be ashamed.
 
Francisco-The voltage you are measuring is small, but the neck of the woods you are in when you are clipping on your test leads has exposed voltages present that aren't so small. Who is thread drifting? The VT-100 series is surely not a "D" series amp, but this thread started talking about problems associated with having to set the bias on certain amplifiers. Coming up with a clever and easy way to set bias has been done correctly since the beginning of tube amplifier time. Marantz did in the 1950s by building in a meter to the top of the amp and everything you needed to adjust the bias quickly. ARC has repeatedly shown that they too can do it, they just kept weaving all over the place with regards to making it simple to making it a science experiment. There is no need for wacky bias schemes, really there isn't. Those that use them should be ashamed.

Please re-read post #65 . This is the post I was addressing.
 

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