Tube Rolling: Friend or Foe?

[DaveyF]

Mark, while I would agree with your comment about tube gear not sounding great with the tubes the manufacturer shipped it with; I cannot see what that has to do with my points earlier with regards to the advice that was given to Henk about his question of rolling tubes into his CAT.
IMHO, the CAT sounds great with its stock tubes, it can be made to sound a lot better with the correct rolled in tubes.
Why you have such an adverse reaction to tube rolling and in particular tube rolling into a CAT preamp is baffling. I know you don't have as high an opinion of the CAT or ARC amps that I own as I do, but the constant reminder of this is a little odd. This doesn't concern me one bit, but does call into question what you were NOT hearing and why.
As to your point about Roger Modjeski, whom I have known for years, I'm afraid that's not a good one. For years I owned a Melos tube amp that Roger had helped me tube roll into. After I sold the amp, which BTW started life out with GE 6550's and which Roger advised me to replace with his RAM KT88's; I found out from my Buyer that the RAM tubes were in fact re-badged Chinese knock-off's!

Sure there are numerous counterfeit tubes on the market, which is why I go to Jim or Kevin to help me through that maze!
To conclude, I think we all know your feelings about tube gear at this point and CAT in particular, just don't assume it applies universally, at least IMHO.

I guess we could say that you are a tube rolling Foe and I'm a tube rolling Friend and leave it at that.

 

[mep]

Davey-If you don’t quit using so many smiley faces in every post of yours I’m going to revoke your man card. First things first…I have nothing against tube rolling as long as the person who is doing the rolling knows what they are doing. There is a reason why I have a stash of NOS tubes Davey.

As for your comment about Roger Modjeski, I’m quite puzzled. Of course the tubes he sells are re-branded with his logo. Did you think there was a RAM tube factory??? All of this information is quite clear on the RAM website. Roger does have some NOS tubes available, but the majority are current production tubes. After RAM tests and grades the tubes, they all get the RAM logo. There is no dishonesty being practiced Davey contrary to your suggestion. I’m shocked that you had to learn from your amp buyer that RAM’s 6550 output tubes were Chinese.

It is a natural audiophile tendency to want everyone to like what you like so you have affirmation for your wise purchasing decisions. I’m way past that. As long as I like something, I really don’t give a damn if somebody else doesn’t like it. And the inverse is true as well. If “everybody” likes something and I don’t, I don’t lose any sleep over that either.

Aside from its criminal bias scheme, the D-70 MKII is a fine little amp. No big cajones though. The much older D-76 had much the better bass if memory serves me correctly. And neither one was a match for the VT-100 MKII that I also owned. But, with the VT-100 series of amps, ARC put the whack in wacky bias schemes. The hoops you have to jump through to install a new set of tubes in those amps and adjust the bias would make Rube Goldberg proud. Kevin Deal will not sell you tubes for a VT-100 series amp-don’t even ask.

As for your beloved CAT preamp, I’m happy for you that you enjoy it so much. Just don’t act surprised that everyone doesn’t own one or want one. The phono stage really doesn’t handle low output MC cartridges no matter what people say. The volume adjustments are too course. I hate the non-detachable umbilical cord that’s connected to a 65 lb preamp on one end and a brick of a power supply on the other end. And all of the NOS 1963 GE long plate 12AX7 tubes in the world isn’t going to change any of that.

 

[DaveyF]

Mark, I'm not going to use any more smiley faces with you. Your supercilious ways are getting tiresome.
The fact that you cannot hear the difference between a GE 12ax7 long plate and a run of the mill tube, assuming that you have even heard a NOS GE 12ax7 long plate,
tells me a lot.
As many other posters have stated to you, you're on their and my ignore list now. As for your 'man card'

 

[treitz3]

If a piece of tube gear doesn’t sound great with the tubes the manufacture ships it with, something is wrong with it. Manufacturers have to design their tube gear based on currently available tubes. No *large* manufacturer of tube gear can design their product based on expectations that their customer base is going to chase the same shrinking pile of NOS tubes. It has to be able to sound great with currently available tubes that everyone can buy.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that if tube gear doesn’t sound great with the tubes the manufacture ships it with, then something is wrong with it. Bob Carver's Silver Seven tube amplifiers are well regarded and sound very good by any audiophile standard and while they may sound great with the stock tubes, much improvement can be had by upgrading the tubes. They do not even need to be NOS tubes. We have had great results with the Shuguang tubes that are brand spankin' new. The cost difference between the stock tubes bought in bulk at the time they were sold and a full compliment of the Shuguang's can roll into the multiple of thousands of dollars. We have had the same experience with the not released to the public yet 20 watt tube amp, the ultra rare Silver9, the Cherry 180's and the Black Beauty 360's.

There has got to be a price point to where the manufacturer puts the brakes on the cost of the tubes going into a product. Allow me to also add that it is also known by manufactures that the stock tubes will most likely be rolled on out anyway, so why increase the price point of the product if that variable will ultimately be changed out by the consumer anyway?

 

[mep]

I never said I couldn't hear the difference between a 1963 GE 12AX7 tube and other 12AX7 tubes. How could I? I have never owned a 1963 GE 12AX7 tube that I know of. Again, you missed my points entirely. I'm glad you chose to put me on ignore and that way I won't have to keep correcting you when you try and put words in my mouth. Frankly, I'm tired of it.

 

[mep]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that if tube gear doesn’t sound great with the tubes the manufacture ships it with, then something is wrong with it. Bob Carver's Silver Seven tube amplifiers are well regarded and sound very good by any audiophile standard and while they may sound great with the stock tubes, much improvement can be had by upgrading the tubes. They do not even need to be NOS tubes. We have had great results with the Shuguang tubes that are brand spankin' new. The cost difference between the stock tubes bought in bulk at the time they were sold and a full compliment of the Shuguang's can roll into the multiple of thousands of dollars. We have had the same experience with the not released to the public yet 20 watt tube amp, the ultra rare Silver9, the Cherry 180's and the Black Beauty 360's.

There has got to be a price point to where the manufacturer puts the brakes on the cost of the tubes going into a product. Allow me to also add that it is also known by manufactures that the stock tubes will most likely be rolled on out anyway, so why increase the price point of the product if that variable will ultimately be changed out by the consumer anyway?

I think we are *kinda sorta* in agreement. Let me clearly state once and for all for those who have misinterpreted my previous words that I do believe that tubes can affect the sound of tube gear. I also believe the best of the NOS tubes were the ones built to the highest standards for noise and microphonics. Not surprisingly, many of those types of NOS tubes were built for the military.

Back in the day when MIL-STDs ruled the military world, there were MIL-STDs for all vacuum tubes that had to be met. I still have a nice stash of Mullard CV-4003 military tubes. These are military versions of the 12AU7. I love the way they come boxed. Each tube is rolled in brown tissue paper. After you unroll it, you see the cool little pin protector that is on the bottom of your tube. And then you notice those huge box plates.

Anyway, the short and simple answer here is that you can elevate the sound of a tube preamp or power amp by using better quality tubes than what your gear came with. That should surprise no one. Anyone who owns an amp that uses KT-88 output tubes and ever had the chance to own real British GEC/Genelex KT-88 tubes knows how dramatic that change can be.

As for every manufacturer assuming that the tubes in their gear are going to be replaced by the higher-priced spread, I’m not so sure. I still remember the time when David Manley sent a scathing reply to Dick Olsher for replacing his tubes with NOS tubes. If you could read between the lines, Manley wanted to give Olsher a beating.

Tube gear that is designed and sold by professional companies today has to be designed and sold to work with what tubes are in commercial production today. And I will say it again, if you can’t design and build great sounding tube gear that sounds great with the tubes that are in current production, something is wrong. That doesn’t mean you can’t possibly make it sound better with some rare tubes, but it better sound great as-is.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes i found it worthwhile , i swapped the 2 E88cc tubes in the phono section with svetlanan 6n1p tubes and i dont go back , more layered and auhthentic sound, certainly not insignificant .
Every where i read they are interchangable , Some say " abritary" interchangable but not " absolute" though , there seems to be a higher plate current needed for the 6n1p.
It plays wonderfull and quiter , thats what they advertise with the 6n1p, but they are new and that should matter a lot also

On the subject : http://www.4tubes.com/DATASHEETS/SCANS-Original/!1Numbers-0--10/6n1p-all-versions.pdf

 

[andromedaaudio]

Zanden 3000 uses 5687 tube in the pre and 6ca4 in the pre amp feed , i m gonna find some info on those tubes , cause i like the zanden a lot also

Well not much interesting comes up , seems like a ordinary tube

 

[carolkoh]

Having seen and heard (and smelled) enough of my father and brother's hobby, all I can say is... "Try not to blow it up."

Not to mention having seen a particular amp come back at least 3 times to the factory...

 

[MylesBAstor]

Zanden 3000 uses 5687 tube in the pre and 6ca4 in the pre amp feed , i m gonna find some info on those tubes , cause i like the zanden a lot also

Well not much interesting comes up , seems like a ordinary tube

I think Audio Note uses a 5687 too. Might see what they recommrnend.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Probably AN UK .
I just checked audionote japan , they only use 6072 tubes in all pre models line and phono .
They even have a new model the G 70
I would love to try those handmade kondo caps in a loudspeaker (if he would make such large values )


http://www.audionote.co.jp/en/products/pre_amplifier/g-70.html

 

[andromedaaudio]

More info on Ecc88

http://www.machmat.com/sales/index.htm

http://www.triplemaudioshop.nl/inde...ategory_id=70&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=11

disclamer : i never bought from them yet and have no financial interest

 

[LL21]

Zanden 3000 uses 5687 tube in the pre and 6ca4 in the pre amp feed , i m gonna find some info on those tubes , cause i like the zanden a lot also

Well not much interesting comes up , seems like a ordinary tube

Hi Andromeda,

I use the Zanden DAC which also has a separate power supply unit using 6X4...i spoke with Brent Jessee in the US...very well respected. I bought Sylvania 6X4 and Mullard 6CA4...huge improvement in strenght of signal/bass whack/solidity.

 

[LL21]

More info on Ecc88

http://www.machmat.com/sales/index.htm

http://www.triplemaudioshop.nl/inde...ategory_id=70&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=11

disclamer : i never bought from them yet and have no financial interest

I own Amperex 7308s and Mullard ECC88s...i could never quite get to like the Mullards...and then i bought EAT tube dampers. changed everything. The tube always felt stiff to me, a bit hard. When the EAT tube damper went on, the basic character did not change, but because the shimmer (which i did not realize was there) was gone, at least the signal became very solid, and there was a slight increase in the purity of tone...just enough to get me past the stiffness which is inheremt vs the Amperex.

And a lot cheaper (and they dont break/wear out)...19 bucks each.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Okay ,....i might try those

I was also looking for a used JL 2 or Jl 3(sign) to replace the krells in the future .
Then youre talking 16 or 24 6550 tubes , quite a bit more expensive

 

[MylesBAstor]

Probably AN UK .
I just checked audionote japan , they only use 6072 tubes in all pre models line and phono .
They even have a new model the G 70
I would love to try those handmade kondo caps in a loudspeaker (if he would make such large values )

http://www.audionote.co.jp/en/products/pre_amplifier/g-70.html
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/preamp/m3_01.shtml

Know there are a few dealers like Lloyd mentioned that sell AN tube replacements.

Have to look that up.

 

[andromedaaudio]

6X4 x 1 (G 70) means a 5687 tube ?
I didnt now that

 

[DDB]

I need to add my 2 cents here with a caveat.
Having built tube based SETs as well as preamplifiers there is one mechanical detail often over-looked when rolling the tube (dice ...):
While most tube pins - noval as well as octal (the later however much more sensible to this ..) - are reasonably similar in diameter, we never had strict numbers to which all manufacturers obeyed.
If one swaps a 1940s Ken-Rad 6SN7GT for a 1956 CV181 (besides other points that should be observed ... ) he might very well observe, that the tube socket's "grip" on the pins all a sudden isn't what it used to be.
In other words: frequent tube rolling may well lead in many components to increased contact resistance, loss of operating points and degrading sound - not to mention future problems which may be hard to trouble-shoot.
I've seen this way too often in too many audio components not to mention it.
Take a precise digital vernier scale and make a survey of some popular octal/noval tubes (12..7- series, 6SN7 / 6SL7, 6CA7, 6L6 etc.).
We will find a pretty wide variation in pin diameter.
Tube rolling - as tasty and tempting as it is to many - may well result in more bad than good on the long term.
The grip in the tube sockets will decrease definitely - thus ultimately leading to decreasing performance and technical problems.
Furthermore it has a dangerous side-effect in many set-ups: tempting to "mask" sonic short-comings in a given set-up by "fine-tuning" the sound with tube rolling.
It is similar to swapping cables - the dedicated audiophile can perform it with a minimum of technical knowledge and "sees" instant results.
However it may often lead into the wrong direction ...

 

[MarinJim]

I have some Telefunken 6922's I have had in storage for 15 years. I forgot I had them, but are they worth anything?

 

[MylesBAstor]

I have some Telefunken 6922's I have had in storage for 15 years. I forgot I had them, but are they worth anything?

If they're NOS and real Teles, they are certainly worth something! Others may have, but haven't seen many Tele 6922 for sale.