Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award

[microstrip]

Al, I mean what you mean, no sacred cows except probably the speakers, if you truly want to see what a certain component is capable of.

I would never dare to suggest the speakers ...

 

[Rhapsody]

I would never dare to suggest the speakers ...

Haha.....yes, that's going a little too far

 

[Al M.]

Haha.....yes, that's going a little too far

Indeed, and not needed. My speakers have more than enough resolution for a top level DAC comparison, and yes, I have heard plenty Magico in optimized settings (my previous Reference 3A speakers would have been another story).

Good suggestion, Francisco, about using the MSB internal preamp.

 

[caesar]

Caesar,
What did they do to you? LOL
I think that your rant is missing something far more logical and less sinister. I know that you are young or at least younger then some of us old guys so perhaps a little background and history might help. HP never wanted to take advertising and in fact back in the days when I used to fight with him about it all the time he kept saying no. My plan was the separation of church and state meaning I would handle the advertising and he the magazine and they would never meet until the issue was published. He could lay down parameters and I would abide by them. This of course never happened and we got into a heated argument at Papagallo's restaurant in Glen Cove where Arnie Nudell was present and liked the advertising idea but we were both dismissed. LOL
Anyway my point here is the magazines are a profit making business!!!!!
Yes that is correct they are there to support themselves and to make a profit. What a concept LOL
SO there are many factors at work in all of these things you want to point at as if there is a major conspiracy.
The magazines of course are going to tend to pay more attention to the companies that support them via advertising. I am not saying that influences the reviews since there is no real proof of such just conjecture but you can believe as you like. For companies that do not advertise in the publications getting noticed is more difficult and a review, if they are looking for one, usually more difficult as well to obtain. I am sure Mrs Valin and Harley have loads of things that people want them to try and endorse. This is a basis of business. You want something and I want something in return. Please remember the reviewers don't lay out there hard earned cash to obtain the items that everyone posting here has done. They may if they have to buy something after but the top guys really don't buy much all the product is on extended term loans. Another thing is they are in the business of WHATS NEW and that drives the car. Every issue there is NEW ! A NEW Best and that is what is discussed and argued about on WBF and other forums.
You can't castigate them for wanting to make a living! All of us who are in the audio Industry want to make a living as well as enjoy the gear and our music. You and everyone else has the opportunity and the choice to support them or dismiss them. I love your passion but I do believe you lack history and perspective.
If you want to have some fun go read the TAS mags from the beginning all the way to the late 80's and you will see a different way things were presented and handled. Harry was a great story teller and took the readers on a wonderful journey.

Hi Elliot,
All I am asking for, and I think it's a simple ask, is since high end audio is an experience, compare products! I don't care what their personal preferences are, but comparing a severely analytical DAC like Berkeley Reference DAC to something else can save some busy individual some time in seeking it out, auditioning it, etc. Saying that it's the best DAC extant wastes time of some of the most productive people - and time limited individuals - in society who can actually afford this stuff. Don't waste my time! That's all really!

 

[Elliot G.]

Hi Elliot,
All I am asking for, and I think it's a simple ask, is since high end audio is an experience, compare products! I don't care what their personal preferences are, but comparing a severely analytical DAC like Berkeley Reference DAC to something else can save some busy individual some time in seeking it out, auditioning it, etc. Saying that it's the best DAC extant wastes time of some of the most productive people - and time limited individuals - in society who can actually afford this stuff. Don't waste my time! That's all really!

your asking for something that wont ever happen basically because of the almighty dollar. Its not in THEIR interest to do things like that since they are dependent on advertising revenue to make a profit. In the old days when this happened and a "bad review" was published it started a fire storm.
Like everything else in the world follow the money. As far as direct comparisons I am afraid that you need to do on your own or with the help of audio buddies.

 

[PeterA]

your asking for something that wont ever happen basically because of the almighty dollar. Its not in THEIR interest to do things like that since they are dependent on advertising revenue to make a profit. In the old days when this happened and a "bad review" was published it started a fire storm.
Like everything else in the world follow the money. As far as direct comparisons I am afraid that you need to do on your own or with the help of audio buddies.

And I suspect that this is why forums and audio buddy groups are becoming more popular and why the magazines are less read and reviews less influential.

The results of direct comparisons and negative user reviews are always popular forum topics. Look at the comments that follow links to published professional reviews versus the comment sections after reviews in Positive Feedback and TAS online. There is often much more useful information shared almost immediately in these forums.

Dealers actually join the forums and share links to reviews. Some of these reviews would otherwise not be seen. The threads then grow and create buzz along with user opinions. This very thread about MSB is a case in point. One of my audio buddies is now thinking of auditioning the MSB DAC and his friends will all visit to hear it in his system. This will be much more useful than simply reading a review, and I suspect some direct comparisons will be made.

 

[Al M.]

your asking for something that wont ever happen basically because of the almighty dollar. Its not in THEIR interest to do things like that since they are dependent on advertising revenue to make a profit. In the old days when this happened and a "bad review" was published it started a fire storm.
Like everything else in the world follow the money. As far as direct comparisons I am afraid that you need to do on your own or with the help of audio buddies.

In other words, all those reviews without comparisons are useless, and for a reason.

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm not saying they are all useless I was replying to a comment looking for comparisons. I am saying however that there is an economic component to the review process that can't be ignored. Its not really in their best interest to pan a product and then expect advertisers to give them money. So if it sucks your probably will never read about it and pitting one advertiser against another is economic suicide.
For example comparing the dCS with the MSB top of the line rigs would be cool but not smart on their part. It is better to have two separate reviews by different reviewers that way they make everyone happy.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Elliot,
All I am asking for, and I think it's a simple ask, is since high end audio is an experience, compare products! I don't care what their personal preferences are, but comparing a severely analytical DAC like Berkeley Reference DAC to something else can save some busy individual some time in seeking it out, auditioning it, etc. Saying that it's the best DAC extant wastes time of some of the most productive people - and time limited individuals - in society who can actually afford this stuff. Don't waste my time! That's all really!

As you know I disagree. Audio reviewers should write a well documented review, giving us examples to support their opinions and material to help us to carry our evaluations and complement our opinions. References to other equipment they have reviewed and are accessible are surely welcome. But A/B type comparisons that 90% of the time only reflect compatibility with the room and system are almost useless.

Surely telling us that some piece is the" best" just shows that the reviewer does not know what is really stereo high-end or needs a serious talk with the hyperbole police!

Just for example, can you point me three easily accessible comparative reviews that you consider masterpieces of that style? I hope you do not have the old issues of What Hifi where ten CD players were comparatively evaluated in an afternoon!

 

[KeithR]

your asking for something that wont ever happen basically because of the almighty dollar. Its not in THEIR interest to do things like that since they are dependent on advertising revenue to make a profit. In the old days when this happened and a "bad review" was published it started a fire storm.
Like everything else in the world follow the money. As far as direct comparisons I am afraid that you need to do on your own or with the help of audio buddies.

This is incorrect- Stereophile provides comparisions in virtually every review as part of its policy (iirc, JA can correct me).

 

[microstrip]

This is incorrect- Stereophile provides comparisions in virtually every review as part of its policy (iirc, JA can correct me).

Usually not direct A/B comparisons during review time - at most a few words concerning their usual equipment when the item under review leaves and they reconnect it.

 

[caesar]

I'm not saying they are all useless I was replying to a comment looking for comparisons. I am saying however that there is an economic component to the review process that can't be ignored. Its not really in their best interest to pan a product and then expect advertisers to give them money. So if it sucks your probably will never read about it and pitting one advertiser against another is economic suicide.
For example comparing the dCS with the MSB top of the line rigs would be cool but not smart on their part. It is better to have two separate reviews by different reviewers that way they make everyone happy.

your asking for something that wont ever happen basically because of the almighty dollar. Its not in THEIR interest to do things like that since they are dependent on advertising revenue to make a profit. In the old days when this happened and a "bad review" was published it started a fire storm.
Like everything else in the world follow the money. As far as direct comparisons I am afraid that you need to do on your own or with the help of audio buddies.

I agree. That's why I am trying to shine some light on this for the folks who occasionally tune into the hobby.

Interestingly, a great deal of what makes Valin the Michael Jordan of high end audio is that he does compare the gear.

Also, interestingly, the guy who owns the absolute sound, Tom Martin, should have learned from his Dell days that the customer comes first. Going way back to almost the beginning of the internet, one could go to the dell website and select if he wanted a computer for a big business, small business, or a home. Mr. Dell, one of the greatest entrepreneurs in the history of the planet, would never have been able to differentiate himself from hundreds of other guys building computers from component parts in the basements if he didn't focus on his customer. Yet it's a shame when individuals with great privileges , like Tom Martin, do not learn from life and do not use their knowledge to make others lives better and a bit easier.

Yet instead, other than Valin and some Stereophile guys, we have reviewers who just state complete gibberish - widest sound stage, cleanest bass, articulate midrange, great highs, bs, bs, bs... IT'S THE BEST....you don't even know if they are talking about a speaker, an amp, a preamp, a DAC, or a cable. Their only incentive is to get that next free, long-term loan, while hard working guys have to travel, bring the stuff into their home, hook it up, unhook it, take it back... just pathetic. Amazing that Tom Martin let's guys like harley humiliate him and his legacy.

 

[caesar]

And I suspect that this is why forums and audio buddy groups are becoming more popular and why the magazines are less read and reviews less influential.

The results of direct comparisons and negative user reviews are always popular forum topics. Look at the comments that follow links to published professional reviews versus the comment sections after reviews in Positive Feedback and TAS online. There is often much more useful information shared almost immediately in these forums.

Dealers actually join the forums and share links to reviews. Some of these reviews would otherwise not be seen. The threads then grow and create buzz along with user opinions. This very thread about MSB is a case in point. One of my audio buddies is now thinking of auditioning the MSB DAC and his friends will all visit to hear it in his system. This will be much more useful than simply reading a review, and I suspect some direct comparisons will be made.

That is very true. And that's why people trust their friends more than they trust the professionals".

In every industry, we see more and more information about products and services. Brands matter less and less, as information from friends, passionate fans, and reviewers all inform individual buying decisions. And I will take all the valid data points I can get to help me save time.

Unfortunately, it's the opposite in high end audio.

A guy like harley has dcs and berkeley ref dac, and calls one best, then calls the other one best 2 months later without ever comparing. He has wilson alexandria, magico q7, rockports, and never compares. how can anyone respect that guy?

 

[caesar]

Usually not direct A/B comparisons during review time - at most a few words concerning their usual equipment when the item under review leaves and they reconnect it.

Again, they should if they are on the side of the fan. Or don't bother reviewing.

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't agree C. They may do it occasionally but they have had so many worlds best speakers for years and never in my memory did they ever do a direct comparison. JV had so many speakers that it seemed like every issue for a while there was a greatest new on .By the way Tom Martin's legacy? What audio legacy does he have. The legacy was what HP and his staff created as far as I know TM just bought it and makes money.

 

[caesar]

I don't agree C. They may do it occasionally but they have had so many worlds best speakers for years and never in my memory did they ever do a direct comparison. JV had so many speakers that it seemed like every issue for a while there was a greatest new on .By the way Tom Martin's legacy? What audio legacy does he have. The legacy was what HP and his staff created as far as I know TM just bought it and makes money.

The guy is supposedly on the board of the Austin, Taxes opera house. Surely, he somewhat cares about his overall legacy...

 

[Elliot G.]

The guy is supposedly on the board of the Austin, Taxes opera house. Surely, he somewhat cares about his overall legacy...

that's a pretty large assumption on two levels.
1) that he thinks you are correct
2). that he has any hand in what's written. That's RH job to be the editor.
I don't know what being on the board of the Opera house has anything to do with being an audiophile.
I'm sure he cares about whether its profitable!!!!

 

[caesar]

that's a pretty large assumption on two levels.
1) that he thinks you are correct
2). that he has any hand in what's written. That's RH job to be the editor.
I don't know what being on the board of the Opera house has anything to do with being an audiophile.
I'm sure he cares about whether its profitable!!!!

I think that's part of my point. Free market capitalism is what makes this hobby happen. You don't see too many audiophiles in North Korea, Cuba, or Venezuela. Yet capitalism without values gets you an embarrassment that TAS is. A bunch of shiny ads that undoubtedly makes them good money and long term loans / steep discounts on very expensive gear to the reviewers to feed their addiction.

Yet it's the job of leaders like Tom Martin to make sure the organization is crystal clear on its values and all employees have integrity. Not seeing it in this scenario.

 

[Elliot G.]

LOL hold on C do you really see this happening anywhere? I respect your enthusiasm but it really isn't how the world works. You may not like it but....
TAS , Stereophile are businesses first. The owners are there to make a profit they are not non profit public service entities.
When they have a board meeting trust me they aren't concerned with what JV reviewed . They are concerned with add revenue, readership, show attendance when they have one and what the bottom line is. The reason TM owns the magazine is because HP was not a good businessman. Again your idealism is wonderful but your assumptions about Mr. Valin and Mr. Martin etc. are misguided

 

[caesar]

LOL hold on C do you really see this happening anywhere? I respect your enthusiasm but it really isn't how the world works. You may not like it but....
TAS , Stereophile are businesses first. The owners are there to make a profit they are not non profit public service entities.
When they have a board meeting trust me they aren't concerned with what JV reviewed . They are concerned with add revenue, readership, show attendance when they have one and what the bottom line is. The reason TM owns the magazine is because HP was not a good businessman. Again your idealism is wonderful but your assumptions about Mr. Valin and Mr. Martin etc. are misguided

Hi Elliot,

I am generally a very optimistic guy, but if you read my posts all I see in the guys involved in this industry are filthy, disgusting smegma and the scum of the earth... pretty much mostly darkness with very little hope...Harley's gravestone and obituary will likely say "fukked people over. cheated them out of precious time and money." and similar for Tom Martin.

Yet there are bright spots... here's a digital comparison by the big guy, John Darko. https://darko.audio/2019/01/chord-dave-vs-ps-audio-directstream/

"The DAVE offers slightly better detail retrieval than the DirectStream to deliver a better sense of texture, especially on very low bass notes, but it pulls up behind its full-width rival on midrange meat. Think: more flesh exposed in a singer’s throat. Those coming from vinyl might prefer for the DirectStream’s sometimes softer transient attack. Those listening to well-produced electronic music will likely prefer the DAVE’s greater immersion. The DirectStream is better suited to thin-sounding 80s recordings upon which the DAVE can double down.

These are but a handful of reasons as to why no absolute best exists when trying to choose between these two high-end DACs. There is only best for you. (And I don’t know you)."

That wasn't so impossible was it? Very effective! Saves someone 10-50+ hours in search costs for the fans as it guides what to take time hearing and auditioning. Manufacturers have no reason to complain. Meets Darko's interests also and raises his profile as a man of integrity.


Definitely need more of that!