Pity. It was like watching a wreck on the side of the road morph into a mechanic there, disassembling the battered body to reveal the broken drive shaft beneath. It had much greater entertainment value.
Tim
Vibration, isolation and electronics...
- Thread starter Phelonious Ponk
- Start date
Pity. It was like watching a wreck on the side of the road morph into a mechanic there, disassembling the battered body to reveal the broken drive shaft beneath. It had much greater entertainment value.
Tim
We all agree about the tremendous entertainment value of "car-crash" threads. These things seem to devolve into personal attacks, etc. that just waste the forum's bandwidth. I'd prefer if the members spent their time on more productive discussions, please. Not posted in green, because it's better if those involved reach their own conclusions rather than having one forced upon them.
Lee
Lee
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I started it, Steve. If it has become too contentious, and you want to close it, I don't object. It ran to 13 pages with measured evidence of the existence of vibration and the ability to reduce it, but nothing regarding any effect that vibration might have on the performance of the electronic components, audible or otherwise. I think we're done here. Those who believe will continue to, those who don't will continue not to, and hopefully those who were unsure can at least conclude that big feet are not terribly important, and move on to something that will make a demonstrable difference, like audiophile USB cables
.Tim
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
If the thread would go back to audio matters, leaving the distraction, I would be very pleased to contribute - I still do not have a PC server and can not contribute to the audiophile USB cable topic.
For me we have just touched the surface of the discussion on vibration - it is now clear why we can not easily find papers or objective information on its effects or non-effects of it in audio.
There is a point that can not be ignored - almost everyone seems to accept that tube equipment is vibration sensitive. What kind of audio equipment measurements support this statement? What types of distortions are reduced when you use the vibration reducing tweaks on equipment?
If the thread would go back to audio matters, leaving the distraction, I would be very pleased to contribute - I still do not have a PC server and can not contribute to the audiophile USB cable topic.
For me we have just touched the surface of the discussion on vibration - it is now clear why we can not easily find papers or objective information on its effects or non-effects of it in audio.
There is a point that can not be ignored - almost everyone seems to accept that tube equipment is vibration sensitive. What kind of audio equipment measurements support this statement? What types of distortions are reduced when you use the vibration reducing tweaks on equipment?
Excellent question Mr. Micro!
Tim
Do you tap the tubes of your amplifier while listening to music?
We can not compare the magnitude of the effect of tapping with air feedback, and I was questioning the audibility of the microphony - there should be a level above which is it listenable.
I just tapped the 6h30s of my ARC amplifier with fingernail and could not listen to anything in the speaker. Even taping it with a pencil could not produce any sound, so the effects of microphony should be low, as the tubes are factory fitted with some dampers. But I remember that the 6dj8 of the cj ART preamplifier were really microphonic.
Do you tap the tubes of your amplifier while listening to music?
We can not compare the magnitude of the effect of tapping with air feedback, and I was questioning the audibility of the microphony - there should be a level above which is it listenable.
I just tapped the 6h30s of my ARC amplifier with fingernail and could not listen to anything in the speaker. Even taping it with a pencil could not produce any sound, so the effects of microphony should be low, as the tubes are factory fitted with some dampers. But I remember that the 6dj8 of the cj ART preamplifier were really microphonic.
Well if you could hear nothing with such a direct hit.. Likely several order of magnitude stronger than structural and airborne vibrations ..it could be that the level of microphony in these amps is too low to matter ...
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The point made by Tom is that by using an "extreme" testing mechanism you can show that components ARE sensitive to vibration: there is an obvious, clearly audible result when you directly strike the component. The air borne vibration is of a much lower magnitude of course, but the sound will still be affected, at a similar, much lower magnitude. It won't be obvious, but the effects will still there, enough for a critical listener to say one piece of kit sounds better than another. As Steve points out, high end manufacturers are not putting dampers on tubes just to make them more visually appealing ....Do you tap the tubes of your amplifier while listening to music?
We can not compare the magnitude of the effect of tapping with air feedback, and I was questioning the audibility of the microphony - there should be a level above which is it listenable.
If terry wants to query meetings and IP further, I'm happy for him to kick off a thread somewhere.
Frank
Surely. Do you hear anything at the speakers when you tap the input tube of your amplifier?
Sorry but you're totally wrong about tube microphonics. It depends upon tube type (ECC83, 82, 81, etc) , manufacturer, etc. Talk to people about trying to get a non-microphonic Siemens or Tele 6922/6DJ8. Or a non-microphonic Ei 12ax7.
Try getting ahold of a George Kaye tube tester (that runs the tubes also at real voltages in a Class A circuit) and listen to what really goes on inside the tube with headphones. One half of a triode tube is often microphonic even, sometimes both, sometimes neither. And tube DO go microphonic!!! Ask anyone with an ARC SP10 and the problems with microphonic tubes.
Hi
Without getting into the arcana of specialty tube testers, I can see why tubes can be microphonic... It is possible for a device based on R, L or C to be microphonic, in fact that is what microphones are .. . I cn also understand the miitary worrying about vibration.. it is no good to have your radio failing because it was jolted while driving to the the battleground ... or your airplane control going down after a 2-g loop... I am not sure their purpose is to reduce microphony, reliability and operation under harsh mechnical and other environment are likely what they worry about.
What I fail to see is how a properly and by that I mean normally built capacitor, resistor or inductance would exhibit audible microphony, even less a solid state active device (transistor, Diodes, FET, etc)..If you take the extreme of a poorly soldered joint or other default .. anything can happen ... I would have hoped suc should not find their way in a product that claims to be High End anything ...
Without getting into the arcana of specialty tube testers, I can see why tubes can be microphonic... It is possible for a device based on R, L or C to be microphonic, in fact that is what microphones are
.. . I cn also understand the miitary worrying about vibration.. it is no good to have your radio failing because it was jolted while driving to the the battleground ... or your airplane control going down after a 2-g loop... I am not sure their purpose is to reduce microphony, reliability and operation under harsh mechnical and other environment are likely what they worry about.What I fail to see is how a properly and by that I mean normally built capacitor, resistor or inductance would exhibit audible microphony, even less a solid state active device (transistor, Diodes, FET, etc)..If you take the extreme of a poorly soldered joint or other default .. anything can happen ... I would have hoped suc should not find their way in a product that claims to be High End anything ...
I think we can all agree that optical disc and vinyl sources can sound different depending on what they are resting on. Loudspeakers can also sound different depending on whether you're using your spikes, casters, rubber feet or nothing at all. All my amplification components (pre and power) have at least one tube in them and perhaps that's the reason I have benefitted a lot from using my own brew of constrained layer damping shelving and much more with my current set of filters. One thing for sure is I am not going back.
I've seen demos at stores go from horrible to passable just by lifting a solid state amp off of a carpeted floor onto ordinary wood blocks. Voodoo? Perhaps it can be called that until some guy comes up with a paper that's been scrutinized to death. Until then I'll be hoping nobody will be sticking pins into a doll that has a lock of my hair on it.
I've seen demos at stores go from horrible to passable just by lifting a solid state amp off of a carpeted floor onto ordinary wood blocks. Voodoo? Perhaps it can be called that until some guy comes up with a paper that's been scrutinized to death. Until then I'll be hoping nobody will be sticking pins into a doll that has a lock of my hair on it.
Wow, what a contentious thread - I'm hesitant to post since I lean toward listening for improvements rather than relying on objective measurements. I will state categorically I've heard significant improvements in articulation from my audio system after using resonance control devices.
After attending a system setup seminar at the 2008 RMAF I'm a believer in the "system foundation" approach to audio (symmetrically precise speaker setup, room acoustics, power conditioning, synergistic cabling, resonance control). Those at the seminar heard (3) identical sets of audio equipment aptly demonstrating audible improvements by applying these techniques. I agree with the seminar presenters that no audio system regardless of price will provide optimum performance without using this approach.
The first equipment set didn't consider precise speaker setup, used a glass/steel rack, multiple manufacturers cabling, no power conditioning or resonance control. The second equipment set used a wood rack, modest cabling from the same manufacturer, and changed speaker positioning that clearly sounded more coherent. The third equipment set used a full resonance control rack, speaker resonance control, same manufacturer cabling with designed resonance control, and power conditioning that significantly improved coherence, articulation, and dynamics.
I and others "heard" the improvements.
- I'm hesitant to post since I lean toward listening for improvements rather than relying on objective measurements. I will state categorically I've heard significant improvements in articulation from my audio system after using resonance control devices.After attending a system setup seminar at the 2008 RMAF I'm a believer in the "system foundation" approach to audio (symmetrically precise speaker setup, room acoustics, power conditioning, synergistic cabling, resonance control). Those at the seminar heard (3) identical sets of audio equipment aptly demonstrating audible improvements by applying these techniques. I agree with the seminar presenters that no audio system regardless of price will provide optimum performance without using this approach.
The first equipment set didn't consider precise speaker setup, used a glass/steel rack, multiple manufacturers cabling, no power conditioning or resonance control. The second equipment set used a wood rack, modest cabling from the same manufacturer, and changed speaker positioning that clearly sounded more coherent. The third equipment set used a full resonance control rack, speaker resonance control, same manufacturer cabling with designed resonance control, and power conditioning that significantly improved coherence, articulation, and dynamics.
I and others "heard" the improvements.
Orb,
Thanks for pointing out this interesting result.
From what I see in the data published at milleraudioresearch.com , the effect of directly taping the lid of the preamplifier - surely a very extreme condition - has shown an increase of noise of about 10dB in the audio band and curiously 20dB in the 20-25kHz zone. However as the extreme effect or taping the lid is raising the background noise relative to 1V signal from -120 dB to the worst case 100dB, we can imagine that air borne feedback could not produce listenable effects. And more expensive cj preamplifiers, such as the ART and the ACT2, have an improved suspension system.
Anyway, it was nice to see one more test of a tube preamplifier that got PASS at the comprehensive technical tests of the Miller Audio suite with excellent results - except for the microphony whip!
Although we hope no electronics designer will use them in audio, some types of ceramic capacitors are microphonic and have been deeply studied. Same ceramic materials are piezoelectric and the capacitors made with them work as generators when subjected to vibration. IMHO piezoelectricity and triboelectricity are the keywords in these matters. The question is just if the magnitude of the generated signals is enough to be audible. I would expect that signals due to RLC variations would be much smaller, except for coils, that are not usually used in solid state amplifiers.
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