Vibration isolation question

[Bobvin]

Having read through the posts in this thread, it is also a possibility Ethan cannot hear differences between his gear and what we consider hi-fi (vs mid-fi). Lots of folks can't, so spending $$ on higher resolution gear is meaningless to them, and they look at some of our rigs with astonishment and often dismay; as in "are you f'n kidding me."

But, perhaps he is keen to hearing that treating his room has brought the best out of his gear. Some audio geek stated they'd rather listen to mid-fi in a good room than hi-fi in a bad room.

I wish I was one of those who didn't notice a big change when I finally put a Shunyata power cord into my system. Dammit all to hell, there goes another couple zeros from my account, all for power cables! WTF! And then isolation devices... For me a little less dramatic than power cables, but I'm an audio geek so pursuit of the holy grail is what I do (to the extent the minister of finance lets me get away with it!)

My big thing is that people are respectful of other's pursuits, and not rain on peoples parades. If it brings you happiness and you're not f'n anyone over doing it, go for it. We (almost) all draw the lines somewhere. Some folks claim audio devices like a 'clever clock' affect their system in a positive way, but it strains credulity for others, like myself. What are those little devices with the concave surface, about the diameter of my pinky finger? Folks say they make a difference -- but I just can't go there as its too far outside my boundaries. If the other folks hear a difference more power to them, i'll look for other places to make improvements.

Finally, as humankind, we are embryonic in our knowledge. Everything we are so adamant about today will likely be laughed at in a hundred years, and after a thousand? That which I think I know--its probably all bullshit. Only our own egos convince us we are sure of anything.

 

[microstrip]

Great post Ralph!
Thanks for your time.

 

[thedudeabides]

Great post Ralph!
Thanks for your time.

+1

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan, apparently you equate 'resolving' with 'audio clarity'. They are not the same.

Sorry but they are exactly the same. Resolution is compromised by noise and other artifacts. When a system is perfectly clean (and flat), it is also perfectly resolving. Any other definition one cares to make up is just that: made up.

The prior post about your system's capabilities was not an insult ... I am very familiar with the abilities of this Pioneer amp and others like it. They do indeed have good specs- no worries there, but as you probably know not a lot different from most car stereos

LOL, in other words: "This is not an insult, but your home hi-fi system is like a car stereo."

If you were to list your system strengths (the 'pros'), take whatever they are and multiply by about 10 and you get where a true high end system (tube or transistor) typically operates.

Blah blah blah, just empty words with nothing specific to back them up.

If you are insulted by this its not the intention. Instead its to get you to consider that there there is more to audio than you have assumed.

I'm not insulted by any of this even though it's clearly meant as an insult. There is nothing more to audio than the four parameter categories described in my AES Audio Myths video and, in even more detail, my Audio Expert book. If you believe there's more to fidelity and resolution, the burden is on you to prove it. But you're defying 100 years of known audio engineering, so you'd better be specific! Saying "good hi-fi gear has big transformers and big capacitors" is equally empty because it doesn't explain how those items give better sound than normal size components.

--Ethan

 

[MtnHam]

So, evidently Ethan knows more about the essentials of fine audio than the collective wisdom of all the many knowledgeable audiophiles and industry insiders on this forum. And, one would have to assume, has a better sounding system too!

 

[Bobvin]

Wow, just—Wow! My question is why is Ethan even a member of an audio forum titled "What's Best"? Clearly he is the only one here who thinks his system is "best". And is willing to argue that point with anyone who disagrees. Why do that? Its like trying to convince a conversative to become a liberal, pointless and a huge waste of time and energy. Somewhere there is a saying to the effect "why try to train a cat—it only frustrates you and annoys the cat!"

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Wow, just—Wow! My question is why is Ethan even a member of an audio forum titled "What's Best"?

mostly because our founders in their infinite wisdom deemed it appropriate to invite him here as an expert.

why did they do that? god only knows.

Clearly he is the only one here who thinks his system is "best". And is willing to argue that point with anyone who disagrees. Why do that? Its like trying to convince a conversative to become a liberal, pointless and a huge waste of time and energy. Somewhere there is a saying to the effect "why try to train a cat—it only frustrates you and annoys the cat!"

he seems to enjoy it on some level.

 

[rockitman]

Well I for one am happy Ethan shared his system room. We all have context now, not speculation. I bet Ethan's system is pleasing sounding along with an immersing surround movie experience. I will continue to believe there are two possibilities...He has never heard a hi-end system OR he is in denial.

 

[alfa100]

Hi Ethan
your screen and room treatment look great.
Have you tried a dedicated Cd player to play CDs?
I can assure you a dedicated cd player similar in price and year to your Sony Blu ray Player will sound better for cds.

move up the ladder and try a really audiophile cd player or CD transport and DAC , treat your room accordingly and be prepared to be blown away.

 

[JackD201]

Sorry but they are exactly the same. Resolution is compromised by noise and other artifacts. When a system is perfectly clean (and flat), it is also perfectly resolving.

In a word, No.

 

[treitz3]

In a word, No.

Took the words right out of my mouth, Jack.

Tom

 

[audio.bill]

Took the words right out of my mouth, Jack.

Tom

+2!

 

[microstrip]

In a word, No.

Jack,
Not enough. You will be asked to prove it scientifically ...

 

[JackD201]

Jack,
Not enough. You will be asked to prove it scientifically ...

I found 4 .edu papers in a matter of minutes to back that up. He can too if he wants to. I'm not his research assistant. He can do his own research.

 

[Atmasphere]

Sorry but they are exactly the same. Resolution is compromised by noise and other artifacts. When a system is perfectly clean (and flat), it is also perfectly resolving. Any other definition one cares to make up is just that: made up.

Jack said this best.

LOL, in other words: "This is not an insult, but your home hi-fi system is like a car stereo."

Your words not mine. But- you might try a car stereo amp sometime. Get a 12Volt car battery to run it. It will then have a better power supply than your Pioneer and will likely sound better too because there will be less IM distortion, which is very audible.

Blah blah blah, just empty words with nothing specific to back them up.

I backed them up. Go back and read the post again.

I'm not insulted by any of this even though it's clearly meant as an insult. There is nothing more to audio than the four parameter categories described in my AES Audio Myths video and, in even more detail, my Audio Expert book. If you believe there's more to fidelity and resolution, the burden is on you to prove it. But you're defying 100 years of known audio engineering, so you'd better be specific! Saying "good hi-fi gear has big transformers and big capacitors" is equally empty because it doesn't explain how those items give better sound than normal size components.

--Ethan

I explained that too...

Ethan, from your response its pretty clear that you really have not been exposed to what high end audio is really all about. As a result, you seem to be embarrassing yourself.

The fact of the matter is audio is not entirely sorted out. The rules that underpin the classic measurements you like so much are based on the understanding of human hearing rules from 50 years ago. We have learned a lot since then, and unfortunately the test and measurement field has not found a good means to reduce some of the requirements of the human hearing perceptual rules to a single reading on a meter or a bar on a graph. To give you an idea, a lot of the audible phenomena that audiophiles hear are distortions that really only show up when the signal is in constant change and does not repeat itself (only test signals repeat themselves so far... and as such are not a complete test). The test and measurement industry has yet to find a way to quantify such things. But if you are an engineer you can certainly suss out how to design equipment that makes less distortion with actual real waveforms.

What I am pointing out here is that the measurements fall well short of what is required. If they did not, these debates would not be going on at all. That is really all you have to know.

 

[thedudeabides]

If you believe there's more to fidelity and resolution, the burden is on you to prove it.
--Ethan

In hi-end audio, the exact opposite is true. The "burden" is on you and others that still believe the earth is flat.

Sigh!

 

[Ethan Winer]

I will continue to believe there are two possibilities...He has never heard a hi-end system OR he is in denial.

Ethan, from your response its pretty clear that you really have not been exposed to what high end audio is really all about.

I've heard lots of extremely expensive systems in hundreds of listening rooms over the years. Not just at hi-fi shows, but at hi-fi dealers too, and at the homes of many audiophiles. Just last week I visited one of my company's customers to show his installer what acoustic panels to put where. This guy has extremely high-end stuff. I've also been to Jeremy Kipnis' $6 Million home theater which is chock full of the most expensive high-end equipment you can buy: McIntosh tube amps, thousand dollar wires, ultrasonic super tweeters, everything on isolation platforms, ad nauseum.

Mod Edit: personal remarks removed.

Now, can we get back to your proof that isolation products improve audio quality? Not anecdotal reports, which seem to be the lynchpin of audiophilia, but hard proof either as better measurements or positive results of blind listening tests?

--Ethan

 

[Steve williams]

OK gents

I have finally come to the conclusion that enough is enough and to Mike Lavigne I am hoping that with this move and others you will not only see but agree with the direction WBF is going

He's banned permanently and will not be back

 

[Bill Stevenson]

OK gents

I have finally come to the conclusion that enough is enough and to Mike Lavigne I am hoping that with this move and others you will not only see but agree with the direction WBF is going

He's banned permanently and will not be back

I am not pleased with your decision and respectfully request that you reconsider. There is value in the exchange of differing views. This will be a very dull place if the criteria for membership is conformity to a narrow perspective. The high end is a quest not a destination.

 

[alfa100]

Hello Steve
I am missing something here . who is banned?