Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[hopkins]

Perhaps there is some confusion as to what "sounding live" means.

We can easily tell "blind" whether we are listening to the sound of an actual person or instrument as opposed to the sound of a speaker, even if we have never heard that specific person or instrument "live".

From a system video, I think we can also grasp to a certain extent the degree to which the sound has a "live" quality, without even comparing it to anything else.

Maybe there are some contradictions here, I don't know.

 

[morricab]

Okay. Presumably the thought experiment has that recording played back on one's own system. So, yes, one's own system and its room will influence the sound. We can never hear that very good live recording without those influences. How do we tell how much a system is changing things from the'original' recording as we can never hear it but through a specific system?

You need to at least eliminate the room modification by using a good pair of headphones. By listening to a range of recording types through both the headphones and your system, you can triangulate in on what the system/room is doing to the sound compared to through the headphones. Not perfect but I think it allows a decent assessment.

I guess you could move your system outside to eliminate the room...too much hassle even for me .

The only other way I know is that you attend a live performance, record it and then play it back at home and compare to your aural memory. I have done this a number of times in the past. This doesn't work so well with larger performances as it is difficult to capture them correctly but small ensembles it can work very well. Even better, which I did at one time, is to have the performer stand in between your speakers and play, make a recording from the listening position, and then play it back through the system. The problem here is that you are reproducing the same room acoustics twice...this tends to overly emphasis the room acoustic. It still gives the most direct and realistic instrument sound but the room acoustic ends up much drier than what you heard when played live.

 

[hopkins]

Objections to comparisons seem to come when some negative comments are made about the system videos.

If you listen to this one, posted in another thread:

On that track, the system sounds pretty damn good. Then compare it to the version on Qobuz (video starts around 2:40 into the track):

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

or to the version on YouTube (seems to be the same CD):

There is not much to criticize (for a system recording)! Some differences are probably due to analog vs. digital, others are due to system recording vs. direct playback. Some are also due to the system. But who cares?

Listening to the system video makes me curious about the system. And listening to the "not in-room" recording reinforces my curiosity - which does not mean I would necessarily like all aspects of the system where I to listen to it!

 

[wil]

If we are going to compare videos and submit a reference, I would suggest a video of a live performance such as the one below. Others seem to want a YouTube file for reference against which they compare people's shared system videos. A live system in a room recorded and then processed through YouTube, if the system owner uses live music as his reference, should be compared to live music recorded and then processed through YouTube, in my opinion.

I like this and other live recordings. I prefer to use live music as my reference to guide my decisions.

Here is another one. I much prefer these to "official" YouTube files.

They are all digital YouTube videos. There were live people playing real instruments when they were recorded. It comes down to which sound and performance you prefer.

I like the Solti performance best, though the sq is not as good. In any case, the YouTube videos sound so much better than any of in room videos. I think there may be something to learn from that. I'd like to hear someone's in-room system recording sound better than the YouTubes. I think that would indicate an exceptionally well tuned system/room.

 

[hopkins]

I'd like to hear someone's in-room system recording sound better than the YouTubes. I think that would indicate an exceptionally well tuned system/room.

Setting aside the limits of our systems, you could compare the sound of an instrument recorded in a room with an iPhone versus professional recording equipment to give you an idea of the difference. There is a reason why the albums we listen to were not recorded with iPhones, let's not forget that.

 

[PeterA]

I see a kinda confused discussion over the last few pages. Surely others will argue with that.

I ask myself what is the purpose of an in-room system video and to what should it be compared.

Imo, the in-room recording of a stereo playing a piece of music is to give an idea of how that system sounds. (Yes, yes, we know it is processed/played through Youtube, but that is a leveling field for any video played through Youtube, making it a non-factor.) So you have a recording of a stereo. As such it can be used in a variety of ways. People will use or abuse it how they choose.

When I started making videos of my stereo I had two goals: a) capture my system's sound at a certain point in time with its then configuration, and b) share it with friends to give me feedback on how they assess it and make suggestions if they have those. That, to me, is the primary value of an in-room system video.

What I found over time is that my friends and I did the above and we also shared in-room videos of our systems playing the same record. That proved a fun and useful exercise as we share a common vision on the type of both sound and music that we like and we share a common reference for assessing our systems against. That became a significant part of the value equation -- that is also why we did this.

Now once a video is made public, via Youtube or WTF, it becomes available for others to do with it what they choose. One thing others do is change the nature of the comparison by putting an end-user's in-room system video against other videos that are not in-room recordings of stereo systems. Some go so far to claim the not in-room recording is a reference.

I reject the notion that a not-in room recording has value to me relative to my own system. Such a recording may sound different, it may sound 'better'. I'm not interested in comparing the sound of differently made recordings (sometimes of unknown provenance) but rather comparing similarly made recordings. I reject the notion of a not-in-room recording -- a speaker-less recording -- as a reference. My reference is the sound of live acoustic music, not a recording.

Tim, this is a great summary of the reasons I started recording my system. It was the sharing, the documentation, and the use as a tool for improvement. Given the direction of this thread, I now wonder if anything is to be really gained by sharing here publicly, over simply sharing privately among like minded friends for mutual purpose.

 

[Argonaut]

Setting aside the limits of our systems, you could compare the sound of an instrument recorded in a room with an iPhone versus professional recording equipment to give you an idea of the difference. There is a reason why the albums we listen to were not recorded with iPhones, let's not forget that.

Easily done , cycle through the numerous uploads on Moiz home YouTube pages pretty much all recorded on portable pro gear , find one you like and there will be a fair chance that you will find the same material played on another system and recorded with an iPhone / Android

 

[morricab]

Setting aside the limits of our systems, you could compare the sound of an instrument recorded in a room with an iPhone versus professional recording equipment to give you an idea of the difference. There is a reason why the albums we listen to were not recorded with iPhones, let's not forget that.

I have done just that...it is indeed educational.

 

[morricab]

Easily done , cycle through the numerous uploads on Moiz home YouTube pages pretty much all recorded on portable pro gear , find one you like and there will be a fair chance that you will find the same material played on another system and recorded with an iPhone / Android

Yes, it matters... A LOT.

 

[Rexp]

Yes, it matters... A LOT.

Also matters which iphone, here is iphone 11 recording sounding not bad:

 

[tima]

Tim, this is a great summary of the reasons I started recording my system. It was the sharing, the documentation, and the use as a tool for improvement. Given the direction of this thread, I now wonder if anything is to be really gained by sharing here publicly, over simply sharing privately among like minded friends for mutual purpose.

I had the exact same thought. Too much irrelevant noise here.

 

[tima]

We can tell because we are familiar with the sounds that are being played either from hearing them "live" or played in a variety of systems. We find "patterns" and recognize deviations from these patterns, provided they are not too subtle.

So a kind of averaging. My memory template of live music comes from multiple exposures to live acoustic music over year of listening and playing. Perhaps a type of averaging or maybe concatenation. I believe that needs regular refreshing and confirmation by listening to live acoustic music. A week ago I heard Mozart's Piano Concerto #24 and Mahler's 5th -- those performances will stick with me for a while.

Once you get past these obvious shortcomings, there are certainly other aspects for which it is very difficult to establish what comes from the performance (the performer, the instrument used...), the recording (microphones and other recording equipment), the system/room.

One can talk about taking the room out of the equation by using headphones. I don't do headphones but I'll guess that there is enough variation in headphones and their amplifiers as there is any other gear. Apart from actual attendance, any listening to an "original recording" is heard through some system.

It is fun to share recordings of actual performances -- a great source for discovering unheard performances or previously unknown music. It can be fun to listen to recordings of other people's systems and some are definitely better than others. Some of those were part of the reason I changed speakers, so in that way recordings had some influence on me, though not as much as in-room listening.

I guess I have a different orientation in my personal engagement with home audio versus videos. Music is the source ('der Grund') of my audiophilia, not the other way around. Videos became more prominent on this forum only in the last what? 4 years? They are fine for sharing with others having a genuine interest. Here they are mostly suited for forum use and debate though there are exceptions.

 

[hopkins]

It is fun to share recordings of actual performances -- a great source for discovering unheard performances or previously unknown music. It can be fun to listen to recordings of other people's systems and some are definitely better than others. Some of those were part of the reason I changed speakers, so in that way recordings had some influence on me, though not as much as in-room listening.

I guess I have a different orientation in my personal engagement with home audio versus videos. Music is the source ('der Grund') of my audiophilia, not the other way around. Videos became more prominent on this forum only in the last what? 4 years? They are fine for sharing with others having a genuine interest. Here they are mostly suited for forum use and debate though there are exceptions.

A debate which you and PeterA initiated here by challenging people's objectives and methods.

 

[tima]

A debate which you and PeterA initiated here by challenging people's objectives and methods.

Heh. What a friendly reply to a benign post. Sure to attract smiling limpets.

You sound wounded. I gather you don't care to debate with or be challenged by people with different opinions. Life in the Salon can be rough and tumble. Point out the posts to which you refer.

 

[hopkins]

Heh. What a friendly reply to a benign post. Sure to attract smiling limpets.

You think qualifying the discussion here as "irrelevant noise" is "friendly", "benign", and does not come across (once again) as condescending?

You and PeterA started this discussion about the relevance of listening to "official YouTube videos", only to dismiss it.

You sound wounded. I gather you don't care to debate with or be challenged by people with different opinions. Life in the Salon can be rough and tumble. Point out the posts to which you refer.

You and PeterA threaten to "no longer publicly share your videos", and I am the wounded one?

What either of us think is not going to make any difference, it will all be drowned out in the hundreds of pages of this thread, and people will continue to post videos and make whatever comments they want. So we can give it a rest.

I will just add that I do agree that videos are fun, and I think many do have a "genuine interest" in them, as you suggest. I certainly enjoy watching videos of others' systems and I am sure you do too.

When people manifest their interest (in different ways, either through comments here, by "liking" or commenting the videos on YouTube, or through questions send privately) it is rewarding - but it does not change anything to what we hear at home. It's a "journey", we all try to do our best given a set of constraints, there is always room for progress, and it is fun.

 

[Argonaut]

Heh. What a friendly reply to a benign post. Sure to attract smiling limpets.

You sound wounded. I gather you don't care to debate with or be challenged by people with different opinions. Life in the Salon can be rough and tumble. Point out the posts to which you refer.

 

[tima]

You think qualifying the discussion here as "irrelevant noise" is "friendly", "benign", and does not come across (once again) as condescending?

It is an 153 page thread dating back to 2019.

When someone complains about another being condesending I assume they are taking something personally. My remarks were in response to Peter. Why did you think they were about you?

You and PeterA started this discussion about the relevance of listening to "official YouTube videos", only to dismiss it.

And... ?

Did you read that as dismissing you? If you were dismissed we would not respond to your posts. You will see posted here different opinions from your own.

You and PeterA threaten to "no longer publicly share your videos", and I am the wounded one?

Seems so. I see no threat. No demands or conditions layed out. We're not trying to harsh your buzz, but we may disagree -- it's an audio forum.

 

[hopkins]

It is an 153 page thread dating back to 2019.

When someone complains about another being condesending I assume they are taking something personally. My remarks were in response to Peter. Why did you think they were about you?



And... ?

Did you read that as dismissing you? If you were dismissed we would not respond to your posts. You will see posted here different opinions from your own.



Seems so. I see no threat. No demands or conditions layed out. We're not trying to harsh your buzz, but we may disagree -- it's an audio forum.

All good then, my apologies if I misinterpreted anything...

 

[tima]

All good then, my apologies if I misinterpreted anything...

No worries ... let's move on.

 

[morricab]

Also matters which iphone, here is iphone 11 recording sounding not bad:

My iPhone 7 does pretty good too but the Zoom microphone was better…but then it broke…