Vinyl Rips: Where analog meets digital and what can they tell us?

[Phelonious Ponk]

Peter

I have no idea what that "thing" is. Lately I have been so much into the Music that I only notice things that sound really bad, else I am having a heck of a time with (ducking) even mp3 ... when it is the only medium available
I have read here, that presented with microphones straight feed from the console and recorded on tape from the console microphones feed many preferred the tape to the straight feed! Let me replay that to you.. People seem to prefer a copy to the original! That would suggest that some of us prefer to add some "spices" to reality ... Would the spices so added contribute into more enjoyment for some? We need to identify those spices and add them to our recipe ... err... digital. That is what I am repeating again and again but is there a demand for that?
There is one prominent contradiction in the Market for Vinyl rip, even if the Licensing issue were to be taken care off: Who would be the users? Not the analog die-hard (those who refuse to have anything digital in their Audio systems) for sure and unlikely that digital-head would care for it either.

Oh...no. No thank you.

Tim

 

[PeterA]

Is this yet another silly "i think" crystal ball moment, void of any ACTUAL firsthand knowledge within this particular subject matter ... much like your prior 1 rip theory?

Thank you, TBone. Lots of people have opinions. Mine about digital are based on the following:

I did spend a very enjoyable and informative afternoon at Goodwin's High End auditioning the dCS Rossini DAC with my good friend, Al M. He only listens to digital in his system and was also extremely impressed with the Rossini DAC. You can read a thread and report about the experience here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20049-A-remarkable-Redbook-CD-afternoon-at-Goodwin-s-High-End

I have also spent time directly comparing the HQPlayer/NADAC digital front end as specifically recommended by Blizzard to MadFloyd's analog front end in what is an extremely transparent system. MadFloyd, Al M. and I all thought the NADAC sound excellent when playing native quad DSD recordings.

I do not have very much experience listening to digital sources. But the digital that I have listened to for over twenty years has left me unimpressed and unconvinced - until recently. Over the last year, I have listened to many DACs in friend's systems and spoken to people to learn more about the format.

Actually, I've heard two vinyl rips. The owner of the system stopped the first one quickly because something was wrong with it and it sounded very thin. Then he played the Madonna rip which also had issues, so I do not have any opinion about vinyl rips in general based on listening to these two rips. Something was wrong with the up sampling process in the HQPlayer or something else. It was an anomaly and I can't make any conclusions based on this experience. Others have heard excellent vinyl rips, and I believe them.

I, and others, agree that the Rossini DAC and the HQPlayer/NADAC sound very good, and they represent for me personally, the best digital that I have heard in my limited experience with the format. Based on what I have heard over the years, I think digital has come a long way and is starting to sound very good. I also think if this continues, the future of audio in general, and digital, specifically, looks very good.

I write that I "think" because I really do not "know" how digital will continue to develop in the future. It is only my opinion based on what I have heard. I do not have a crystal ball.

What do you think about the future of digital?

 

[MadFloyd]

When Peter and Al M were at my house on Saturday we played a vinyl rip of Madonna's Like A Virgin made by Bruce Brown. As soon as the vocals came in we noticed Madonna sounded like a chipmunk - as if the turntable had been playing back at the wrong speed. It wasn't as obvious as playing a 33RPM at 45RPM; it was much more subtle, but it was easily discernible and off-putting and we simply stopped playback and moved on to other things.

Yesterday I listened to these vinyl rips again, including Like A Virgin. This time the speed was correct, so I can only assume a software glitch occurred on Saturday.

The vinyl rips sounded excellent to my ears - really, really good. I didn't do a comparison with my own vinyl versions because there are too many variables. I just appreciated them on their own and they did not sound 'digital' in any way. There weren't any classical samples and I would love to hear how some of my great classical LPs could be captured, but either way I could see myself enjoying vinyl rips.

Thanks to Bruce B. for supplying the samples and apologies for any implication that Bruce recorded them incorrectly!

 

[RayDunzl]

As an aside, many times I have run 2 lines out from a phono stage into a pre-amp. One of the lines had an ADC/DAC loop. Up until recently, you could easily pick out nuances that were distinguishable related to the straight analog line. Today's ADC/DAC converters now blur that line to where one can be fooled easily in a blind test.

I (digital only as I only had LP's as a kid, and not many even then, hated the inevitable oops that would mar later replay) would like to see/hear a comparison of an LP rip made with and without whatever acoustic feedback occurs when the LP is played silently (no amp/speakers) as opposed to where the LP is replayed with the acoustic reinforcement of nearby speakers.

If that's been investigated (I don't see why it wouldn't have been) what was the typical result?

My suspicion would be that the "sound" of an LP play would be partially dependent on the acoustic levels in the air, where a digital replay is considerably less affected by that sort of feedback.

If two turntables are available, play one through speakers, and record from the other, not spinning, but with the needle in the groove, just as an experimental data point.

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks to Bruce B. for supplying the samples and apologies for any implication that Bruce recorded them incorrectly!

Thank-you Ian.... I was wondering if I were losing it!!

I (digital only as I only had LP's as a kid, and not many even then, hated the inevitable oops that would mar later replay) would like to see/hear a comparison of an LP rip made with and without whatever acoustic feedback occurs when the LP is played silently (no amp/speakers) as opposed to where the LP is replayed with the acoustic reinforcement of nearby speakers.
.

All my vinyl rips have the TT in another isolated room. The rooms are totally decoupled from one another. The times that I did do vinyl rips where the TT was in the same room, it was done with headphones!

 

[Rodney Gold]

A needledrop is only as good as your last TT and phono setup
the moment you change anything at the front end , your rip is not "valid"
Only an option if you have the same front end unto eternity

 

[TBone]

A needledrop is only as good as your last TT and phono setup
the moment you change anything at the front end , your rip is not "valid"
Only an option if you have the same front end unto eternity

if you consider the many variables that litter vinyl reproduction, then every needledrop, ever recorded, past and present, sooner or later, becomes "invalid" (whatever that means?).

That twisted logic misses the entire point of why a good drop is important to many, by a metric mile ... in actuality, some of older needledrops become -more valid- compared to present-day drops simply because the LP, at that time, was in pristine -at.best- condition, irregardless of future equipment drifts ...

 

[PeterA]

When Peter and Al M were at my house on Saturday we played a vinyl rip of Madonna's Like A Virgin made by Bruce Brown. As soon as the vocals came in we noticed Madonna sounded like a chipmunk - as if the turntable had been playing back at the wrong speed. It wasn't as obvious as playing a 33RPM at 45RPM; it was much more subtle, but it was easily discernible and off-putting and we simply stopped playback and moved on to other things.

Yesterday I listened to these vinyl rips again, including Like A Virgin. This time the speed was correct, so I can only assume a software glitch occurred on Saturday.

The vinyl rips sounded excellent to my ears - really, really good. I didn't do a comparison with my own vinyl versions because there are too many variables. I just appreciated them on their own and they did not sound 'digital' in any way. There weren't any classical samples and I would love to hear how some of my great classical LPs could be captured, but either way I could see myself enjoying vinyl rips.

Thanks to Bruce B. for supplying the samples and apologies for any implication that Bruce recorded them incorrectly!

Glad you got them playing correctly, Ian. I had assumed it was in the upsampling or some other computer glitch on your playback rather than from the time of recording or inherent in the rips themselves. I look forward to coming back to hear them again. I apologize to Bruce if my posts gave the wrong impression.

 

[TBone]

FWIW, the few vinyl rips I've heard at Goodwin's sounded extremely analog to me. It's been over a year and I forget the details, but they were produced with their Pacific Microsonics Model 2, and I believe I listened to them played back either by it or the Vivaldi DAC. I remember inquiring about the exceptional sound and it was only then that they told me they were rips.

That's ... HDCD rips?

I almost purchased a PM2 many years ago with the intent of ripping, always kinda wish I had ...

That said ... although I luv a good HDCD session, as time passes and the future digital front end simmers ... I've of two minds concerning HDCD, especially as a ripping tool. From an end-point: archive-to-computer point of view, HDCD files can prove difficult to transfer properly, near impossible without a proper HDCD decoder in the chain. The ~ gain/levels, peak-extends, are but one issue, if the transient filters were utilized, good luck. At least that's been my experience. The only way I can rip HDCD to computer, properly, is via my HDCD player analog outputs, stripping away all the hdcd flags for future playback/recording.

However, the level of transparency given those PM tools are so readily evident on any good system, even without the use of any HDCD flags/options (which can all be bypassed).

 

[rbbert]

The PM2 only "uses" HDCD when outputting 16/44.1 files, and even then it's a selectable option. Otherwise it's like any other DAW operating at 24/32 bits and higher sampling rates.

 

[fas42]

The anniversary issue isn't all that bad, it's recorded decently enough, they certainly tamed the highs that many consider to be the Achilles Heal of early digital transfers/playback. The problem is, it's just too compressed and soft limited, which can be good for some systems and environments, but not my system, which only comes "alive" when replaying the >dynamic releases. That said, if I simply wish to listen to it at lower background volumes, or in a car, the remaster is the way to go ... and unlike the orig. it contains Blind Man.

Nice write up, TBone! The track that does it for me is "Lazy", even on YouTube you can hear the potential, the organ just rips the air apart in the intro, fabulous stuff!

Same debacle with Led Zep, the remasters are pretty dreadful - limp wristed, not worth listening to ...

 

[fas42]

I write that I "think" because I really do not "know" how digital will continue to develop in the future. It is only my opinion based on what I have heard. I do not have a crystal ball.

What do you think about the future of digital?

I was lucky enough to understand what digital could do right at the introduction of the format, so never developed the set against CD that so many people had. So spent the time since refining things, and at times got playback that "blew analogue out of the water". Not easy to do, but demonstrated the potential.

For me, the answer is that there are no limits - no matter how good it sounds at some point in time, it can always be made better again ...

 

[TBone]

Nice write up, TBone! The track that does it for me is "Lazy", even on YouTube you can hear the potential, the organ just rips the air apart in the intro, fabulous stuff!

Same debacle with Led Zep, the remasters are pretty dreadful - limp wristed, not worth listening to ...

thx fas42 ... it has taken me near forever to attain certain LZ transfers that I consider "required" per my collection, on both LP and CD. None were touched by the hands of Page/Marino, those remasters should be considered a crime against musicality, in any format. I recently ripped some cuts from a used but decent shape original LZ3 pressing, "restored" to the best of my abilities. Truly amazing, on this particular LP, and only this version, the interplay between JPJones and Bonham instruments become so much more apparent, like I've never heard before. This, to my ears, represents the real magic of vinyl. These are true treasures, and should be ripped and archived to digital just so we can ALL enjoy in the future.

And all this-new-that-better/superior blah blah blah seems pointless considering this particular pressing was circa 1970/71! As stated prior, how many people embrace Live at Blues Alley for its "superior" sound ... yet unknown to nearly all, it was DAT/cassette based!!!! I have original Japan DSOTM transfer, 15 ips tape direct to redbook, many consider this the "grail" version. On my system, it sounds like a late generation tape transfer, I much prefer the pressing Steve Hoffman recommends, a certain rare Toshiba based CD. On first listen to this CD, it hit home, I've heard near every issue on vinyl, on turntables and systems costing a mortgage, yet I've never heard those opening chimes and their dynamic impact quite like that before, made me wonder if this was a completely different master? Format has ALWAYS been a secondary issue ... much like the choice of ADC for ripping.

 

[fas42]

My DSOTM appears to have roughly the right heritage, I just noted on http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pink-floyd-dark-side-of-the-moon-japan-cds.31636/ that this gets pretty esoteric! Has the "right" matrix numbers ...

I've used this disk a great deal for fine tuning of the system in the past, and have been well pleased with how it's come across.

 

[Al M.]

Nice write up, TBone! The track that does it for me is "Lazy", even on YouTube you can hear the potential, the organ just rips the air apart in the intro, fabulous stuff!

Same debacle with Led Zep, the remasters are pretty dreadful - limp wristed, not worth listening to ...

I have the digital remaster CD of Physical Graffity made by Jimmy Page and George Marino. Under normal circumstances it sounds anemic, but since I have a minimonitor/subwoofer system, I can modulate bass quite heavily. If I turn up the sub, I can get a lot of weight on that record. John Bonham's drums on In my Time of Dying are heavy and thunderous, but reproduced with excellent rhythm & timing, as well as dynamics, while bass guitar is still tight -- delicious.

I don't know about Machine Head, but the organ on Lazy on the CD of Deep Purple Live in Japan rips and shreds to heart's delight. A music buddy of mine who plays the organ himself was impressed.

 

[TBone]

My DSOTM appears to have roughly the right heritage, I just noted on http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pink-floyd-dark-side-of-the-moon-japan-cds.31636/ that this gets pretty esoteric! Has the "right" matrix numbers ...

I've used this disk a great deal for fine tuning of the system in the past, and have been well pleased with how it's come across.

IIRC, most there prefer the "grail" version, also known as the 1st pressing, in Japan. Again, it's sounds like a an eq'd copy in my system, the extended bandwidth remains and no compression added, but it remains a two dimensional experience. Many prefer the 2nd masters, again IIRC, mostly the Harvest "non TO" issues, at a time when Sony mastered and re-produced disks pre Toshiba plant production (confusing since these still say Toshiba on the CD, but no "TO" in the matrix). Like SH, I prefer a rarer third "flat" transfer, mastered & made entirely by Toshiba.

BTW, these are pre-emphasis based early CD's, they measure incorrectly and sometimes incorrectly flagged, therefore they require intervention when ripping to computer. Perhaps even more important to some, not every CD player seems to be able to do em sonic justice, worse case scenario they miss the pre-emphasis flags and sound a bloody-bright mess. I've heard this with a few DVD based drives/transports. The other major issue is finding one that isn't damaged or requires major error correction based on advancing CD rot. These older CDs are even more fragile than an LP, and even rarer. I could fall back into tears telling stories about rare superbly recorded CDs I was lucky enough to find, and then had to trash 'em because they became unreadable over time, hence why they also need to be ripped. Fingerprint oils/stains can deteriorate vinyl, they also help destroy CDs. I had to develop a cleaning/ripping process just for these specific CDs.

 

[PeterA]

Do those who make vinyl rips have favorite record cleaning machines that they prefer to use? I find that even the chemicals can make an audible difference, and the method of removing the chemicals. Also, have people experimented with demagnifying the LP before recording?

 

[Bruce B]

Do those who make vinyl rips have favorite record cleaning machines that they prefer to use? I find that even the chemicals can make an audible difference, and the method of removing the chemicals. Also, have people experimented with demagnifying the LP before recording?

I'm using the KLAudio Ultrasonic cleaner now. Best I've used so far!

 

[awsmone]

Do those who make vinyl rips have favorite record cleaning machines that they prefer to use? I find that even the chemicals can make an audible difference, and the method of removing the chemicals. Also, have people experimented with demagnifying the LP before recording?

I use the KL audio its fantastic, I have a VPI cleaner as well but hardly use it
I have taken to pre scrubbing the vinyl with a micro fibre sponge before putting in the cleaner...my theory is it breaks up some intransigent stuff the Kl cannot get...since then I find I can resurrect some vinyl even ten goes thru the kl US is not enough

The Kl has improved my enjoyment of vinyl no end

I am always surprised how much more info i get after it goes thru the machine...

 

[Bruce B]

I use the KL audio its fantastic,
The Kl has improved my enjoyment of vinyl no end
I am always surprised how much more info i get after it goes thru the machine...

The KLAudio unit has cut down on my surface noise drastically! Some of my rips were mistaken for tape transfers!