Vinyl Rips: Where analog meets digital and what can they tell us?

[PeterA]

You arrived at this theory/conclusion - by listening to 1 rip?

(big BIG sigh)

Actually, I was thinking about this last week while reading the comments on the Merging+NADAC thread, and long before I actually heard the vinyl rip. The conclusion I reached yesterday is that the vinyl rip made from Bruce Brown's system could not sound the same in Bruce's system as what we heard in a different system because something was clearly wrong with it. My theory is that something was wrong in the playback chain, the upsampling conversion or in the rip itself simply because I have read so many good things about Bruce's vinyl rips.

Are you suggesting that an LP played on one particular analog front end in one particular system will sound identical to a vinyl rip of that LP in that system when heard in a completely different system? If so, could you explain why you think that? I am willing to be shown that my theory/conclusion is plain wrong.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have 200-250 (maybe 300 now as it grows weekly) 2xdsd vinyl rips of full albums. they were all done on a couple of different systems where the set-ups were quite similar but not exactly the same as mine. and I have almost 100% of the source vinyl for the rips.

those systems use my same NVS tt, and different version of my same Durand Telos arm (mine is the Telos Sapphire), the same Ortofon MC Anna cartridge, and my system uses the Herzan TS-140 active isolation shelf. both systems use the darTZeel phono; although most of the rips are with the previous version of the dart phono.

all the rips are with a Korg. and they are very well done as a group.

I can hear where the rips are 'of a family' of what I hear, and where they are different. my Lampizator Golden Gate certainly seems a great dac to use for listening to these rips.

in addition are some 2xdsd rips of tapes that mostly I have too also using the Korg, mostly using a Studer A-820 which is what I use.

collectively it's probably the best digital I have heard and my most listened to digital.

 

[TBone]

I am willing to be shown that my theory/conclusion is plain wrong.

Why should I care if YOU are willing or not, that's utterly meaningless to me or anyone for that matter ... we simply can't have this discussion based on your silly criteria.

Peter, with all due respect, here, we are not playing with an even keel, because your base point is a 1 rip theory, while I'm ...



BTW, pictured is the remaster LP of MH and THEE original pressing (to die for) ... the differences, when ripped are, and should be, easily distinguishable. The rest are rips of some of the best equipment/pressings known, some from tapes, vinyl, cd and even dsd ... I have thousands ... all documented and compared.

 

[PeterA]

BTW, pictured is the remaster LP of MH and THEE original pressing (to die for) ... the differences, when ripped are, and should be, easily distinguishable. The rest are rips of some of the best equipment/pressings known, some from tapes, vinyl, cd and even dsd ... I have thousands ... all documented and compared.

Thanks TBone. Nice photo. It seems we agree. Your actual experience that "... the differences, when ripped are, and should be, easily distinguishable." is what I thought would be the case. I assume that a vinyl rip sounds the same, or extremely close, to the LP from which it was ripped. So if the LPs sound different, so would the rips of those LPs. I trust the observations of those who have lots of experience with vinyl rips, and it seems that you certainly do.

The rips will take on the characteristics of the analog gear on which they were being played and of the digital gear used to make the rips. I think this is why Fremer uses rips to compare differences between cartridges. And vinyl rips should sound different in different systems, just like any CD or digital file would.

BTW, I love Machine Head and just found a copy in a record store to replace the one I sold twenty five years ago. I still have to clean it before I listen to it. I also just bought a NM copy of their first album, Shades of Deep Purple. Great music.

 

[FrantzM]

Well the point is not that they would not sound different.. It is a fact that digital is transparent enough to allow those differences to be perceived. The point that is the most contentious is : Would you be able to distinguish a rip from vinyl?
Two persons you know and whose opinions many of us respect say that the differences are very small to inaudible if knowledge is removed: Michael Fremer and our own Bruce Brown, maybe not verbatim but that is the essence of what they say. Others will tell you it is not even close.. Of course once you see, then it become a different ballgame the mind is at work and you hear what you want to but with knowledge removed? Not easy at all to impossible ... Most fail and if it weren't for ego ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well the point is not that they would not sound different.. It is a fact that digital is transparent enough to allow those differences to be perceived. The point that is the most contentious is : Would you be able to distinguish a rip from vinyl?
Two persons you know and whose opinions many of us respect say that the differences are very small to inaudible if knowledge is removed: Michael Fremer and our own Bruce Brown, maybe not verbatim but that is the essence of what they say. Others will tell you it is not even close.. Of course once you see, then it become a different ballgame the mind is at work and you hear what you want to but with knowledge removed? Not easy at all to impossible ... Most fail and if it weren't for ego ...

 

[TBone]

It seems we agree.

Well, perhaps a matter of perspective.

BTW, I love Machine Head and just found a copy in a record store to replace the one I sold twenty five years ago. I still have to clean it before I listen to it. I also just bought a NM copy of their first album, Shades of Deep Purple. Great music.

One of the best R&R recordings of all time, afaic ... superbly recorded music by superbly talented musicians (these guys played great Jazz) ... however ... the quality of MH remasters are mostly soft-limited + compression not heard on the orig. The orig LP were increasingly getting harder to find in good shape.

That said, the HD Track version (I have not heard yet), specific numbers indicate it was a similar master to my original pressing. The specs/numbers are there, therefore I'd expect similar results. If it is similar; this is one of the rarer times that I've found a "hi-rez" reissue equal (never mind all that the "superior" bs) to the original, either being the orig. LP or CD. I feel embarrassed to say this, but I actually do not have an original CD version of MH to compare, only remasters, and every one of 'em is compressed, some to a large degree. Considering how absolutely awesome some of the first CD pressings sound on my system, it's something I'll need to rectify soon.

 

[TBone]

Would you be able to distinguish a rip from vinyl?

Ask me how many times I've slipped in the rip during sessions with vinylphile'$$$,$$$ who "think" they can tell the difference ...

 

[ack]

FWIW, the few vinyl rips I've heard at Goodwin's sounded extremely analog to me. It's been over a year and I forget the details, but they were produced with their Pacific Microsonics Model 2, and I believe I listened to them played back either by it or the Vivaldi DAC. I remember inquiring about the exceptional sound and it was only then that they told me they were rips.

 

[FrantzM]

FWIW, the few vinyl rips I've heard at Goodwin's sounded extremely analog to me. It's been over a year and I forget the details, but they were produced with their Pacific Microsonics Model 2, and I believe I listened to them played back either by it or the Vivaldi DAC. I remember inquiring about the exceptional sound and it was only then that they told me they were rips.

WIth that said .. What needs to be done at the recording level to ensure that digital is palatable to some folks. Iti s clear to me the medium is transparent enough to bring out the subtleties of a serious analog rig and be indistinguishable from the original from most (all?) so what is left is to find a way toadd to digital what many find desirable in the analog chain.. I believe it is feasible.. Dr Uli from Acourate has the crosstalk as part of the solution and the rest needs to be known so that it can replicated or synthesized. I believe the technology is there. The real issue is how much interest is into that.
In that context, what do some of us like about Vinyl Playback is an interesting and important question. Understanding it at a very deep level would elevate the level of reproduction in our home IMHO. It could be we like the steak with some spices rather than bare ... Identifying those spices would bring more taste to our ears

 

[fas42]

One of the best R&R recordings of all time, afaic ... superbly recorded music by superbly talented musicians (these guys played great Jazz) ... however ... the quality of MH remasters are mostly soft-limited + compression not heard on the orig. The orig LP were increasingly getting harder to find in good shape.

That said, the HD Track version (I have not heard yet), specific numbers indicate it was a similar master to my original pressing. The specs/numbers are there, therefore I'd expect similar results. If it is similar; this is one of the rarer times that I've found a "hi-rez" reissue equal (never mind all that the "superior" bs) to the original, either being the orig. LP or CD. I feel embarrassed to say this, but I actually do not have an original CD version of MH to compare, only remasters, and every one of 'em is compressed, some to a large degree. Considering how absolutely awesome some of the first CD pressings sound on my system, it's something I'll need to rectify soon.

Do so. I have it, and can vouch for the impact of the tracks. Interestingly, the "Smoke" track is one of the least impressive items on that album - one of the highlights, on another track, is the sound of the distorted Hammond, blows one away ...

 

[awsmone]

Hi

I would suggest to listen to some rips from an eminent mastering person such as our own Bruce Brown, it is likely your conclusions would have be different. Bruce could provide you with a rip from something you already have in vinyl (maybe) and you take it from there on the DAC chain you mention in your post else … not much one should say. Furthermore present DACs when fed with seriously made rips are likely to fool many perhaps not you .. although I doubt that they wouldn't

Hasn't Bruce already done this for ADC DSD

From A Bruce post in Gearlutz

"We have the EMM Labs ADC8 Mk IV, the Horus, Grimm and previously AX24, ADC2, PM2 as well as others.

"DSD Battle Royale"

We have posted blindly, hundreds of files for clients to choose what they thought was the best sounding to them. Over 80% chose the EMM Labs as their favorite. The other 20% was the Grimm. Granted this was only DSD files. When we posted PCM files, most chose the Horus or MSB! "

I personally have two Meitners, and an Accuphase ADC
Although I find the Accuphase very accurate running at 24/176khz, and find the meitners much more like vinyl, and enjoyable ...not putting words in Bruce's mouth but I think his view was the Horus is more transparent and accurate, but many people enjoy the "colourations" of the Meitner better

I must conclude I enjoy the Meitners better to listen to for enjoyment ...

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

Peter
Is there is an underlying assumption here, perhaps? That is that we all hear the same things, or can perceive the same differences?

I am not sure sure that is the case. No doubt that is what the blind test advocates try to/prove they can remove.

Interestingly, Mike L. did not say he was without preference between DSD rips and the vinyl they were sourced from. Perhaps there is none. Different as opposed to better or worse.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter
Is there is an underlying assumption here, perhaps? That is that we all hear the same things, or can perceive the same differences?

I am not sure sure that is the case. No doubt that is what the blind test advocates try to/prove they can remove.

Interestingly, Mike L. did not say he was without preference between DSD rips and the vinyl they were sourced from. Perhaps there is none. Different as opposed to better or worse.

I only smiled at Frantz's question.

game, set, match to the 'real' vinyl over the 2xdsd rips. 'real' vinyl has continued to improve faster then digital has from where I sit.

it all comes down to what sort of vinyl reference one has. and as everyone has a different vinyl reference (there are so many moving parts to one's vinyl....and variability between ripping of vinyl too) there is room for many personal views. sorry; but no digital is capable of capturing all that top-level vinyl can offer. every visitor to my room easily hears this. not close.

this is no knock on 2xdsd vinyl rips. I've already stated how enjoyable I find them and how often I listen to them.

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

I only smiled at Frantz's question.

game, set, match to the 'real' vinyl over the 2xdsd rips. 'real' vinyl has continued to improve faster then digital has from where I sit.

it all comes down to what sort of vinyl reference one has. and as everyone has a different vinyl reference (there are so many moving parts to one's vinyl....and variability between ripping of vinyl too) there is room for many personal views. sorry; but no digital is capable of capturing all that top-level vinyl can offer. every visitor to my room easily hears this. not close.

this is no knock on 2xdsd vinyl rips. I've already stated how enjoyable I find them and how often I listen to them.

Yes, that is exactly what I expected. And have experienced FWIW, albeit with PCM rips.

 

[awsmone]

I only smiled at Frantz's question.

game, set, match to the 'real' vinyl over the 2xdsd rips. 'real' vinyl has continued to improve faster then digital has from where I sit.

it all comes down to what sort of vinyl reference one has. and as everyone has a different vinyl reference (there are so many moving parts to one's vinyl....and variability between ripping of vinyl too) there is room for many personal views. sorry; but no digital is capable of capturing all that top-level vinyl can offer. every visitor to my room easily hears this. not close.

this is no knock on 2xdsd vinyl rips. I've already stated how enjoyable I find them and how often I listen to them.

I read an interesting article by a Philips engineer, who was talking about dsd, when asked about vinyl, he said there was no doubt that vinyl was very transparent , and that dsd was a good archiver of analog

I personally have found the dsd adc more enjoyable on playback than my pcm, but maybe thats just my system...cannot generalise

 

[cjfrbw]

I have never heard that anybody agrees that DACs or ADC or DACs are transparent to each other. Why would one presume that they would be transparent to vinyl unless all DACs and processers sound the same?

All that really matters is that if you want to take the time to record your vinyl to digital, you will get a very pleasing digital result.

I heard at one of the audio shows that Peachtree audio was supposedly working on a digital library of vinyl records recorded from high end vinyl equipment to high bit, but never heard about it after. They did say the were struggling with licensing issues.

 

[Bruce B]

This was an interesting project that I did for Winston Ma (FIM)

JUN FUKAMACHI AT STEINWAY (TAKE 2) CD

 

[PeterA]

I have never heard that anybody agrees that DACs or ADC or DACs are transparent to each other. Why would one presume that they would be transparent to vinyl unless all DACs and processers sound the same?

Blizzard claimed that well done vinyl rips are indistinguishable from the original vinyl when he was discussing his HQPlayer/NADAC stuff. He even said that he could hear vinyl in his system simply by buying vinyl rips from somebody. It was a bold claim. I have no way of knowing how accurate it was. It is interesting that those who use ADCs and DACs do upgrade them and can hear the differences, so it would make sense that they are not completely transparent. And it seems that MikeL has enough experience to say that the analog still sounds better.

I think that vinyl rips can be a great archiving tool and a convenient way to listen to "analog like" sound, if that is what one is interested in. Much less hassle and perhaps better sounding that inferior or poorly set up analog. But, if one wants to hear what a cartridge actually sounds like, it would probably be best to listen to the actual cartridge in one's system, if possible.

 

[amirm]

This was an interesting project that I did for Winston Ma (FIM)

JUN FUKAMACHI AT STEINWAY (TAKE 2) CD

Thanks Bruce. WOuld you please explain what that is? It says it is DXD but that it plays on any CD player???