Bill, what do you think of the Pnoe approach to bass? Unfortunately I couldn't judge a lot re this on the day I visited The General with you. Not much I could gauge from predominantly piano recordings. You know the Pnoe much more than me, I'm assuming your sub bass solution is a lot more comprehensive.
Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project
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The smaller throat size for sure impacts the HF extension. You can see this with other brands/models as well...they have the same driver but with a different throat opening and the smaller throat typically has better extension. Perhaps the larger throat has a more "relaxed" sound or lower distortion but otherwise I am not sure why people wouldn't go with a smaller throat diameter and get the wider extension...unless you really go multi-way.
the BIG surprise is that the 4003 loaded better downwards too!
more growl
the bigger 4001 is neither more relaxed nor with less distortion
in fact the distortion of the 4003 was the lowest of all drivers we tested
4001 is not particularly relaxed...on the contrary a litt squeeky on certain mid freqs around 3-4K and does break up rather early and need to be tamed by the TH-4001 fins or lopassed at max 8K
the fins create other problems
4003 has a slightly raised plateau around 3-4K too, which is handled by the TH-4003 hole in the front of the horn, which actually acts as a helmholzresonator
I have a tiny notch to deal with it..
more growl
the bigger 4001 is neither more relaxed nor with less distortion
in fact the distortion of the 4003 was the lowest of all drivers we tested
4001 is not particularly relaxed...on the contrary a litt squeeky on certain mid freqs around 3-4K and does break up rather early and need to be tamed by the TH-4001 fins or lopassed at max 8K
the fins create other problems
4003 has a slightly raised plateau around 3-4K too, which is handled by the TH-4003 hole in the front of the horn, which actually acts as a helmholzresonator
I have a tiny notch to deal with it..
Bill, congratulations on your endeavour, nothing matches making your own speakers in my experience. I have done many and still enjoy one as my main system.
There was a lot of talk about 4001 and 4003 differences. One of the main differences between TAD TD-4001 and TD-4003 is the throat size. TD-4001 has 49.2mm (2") throat whereas the TD-4003 has 39mm (1.5"). They both have 5 slits and afaik the same voice coil and diaphragm.
Smaller throat is definitely better for higher extension but I am a believer in adding upper mid and tweeter channels on top to get even dispersion with 2" compression drivers. This is a harder road for the diy enthusiast. A 2" driver may play up to 20khz but throat size creates problems and these are not possible to get rid of as they happen because of physical dimensions of the throat and its relation to wavelength reproduced.
So, with 2" cd I prefer to add more channels. This brings other problems like crossovers and most of the people are scared to hear even the word crossover. If you can successfully implement one they are not a problem but it is not as easy as getting a horn and strapping a cd behind it. If I had used 4003, I may have reduced one channel, the upper mid and directly used a suitable tweeter. The only problem then would be the matching of the dispersion in between those two.
As I am in the process of rolling out a very different approach, I wonder how horn enthusiasts will react to that solution
Will your different approach be non-horn? Or will it use signficantly less horns per channel?
Personally, I am finding that modern compression drivers can do very well from 600-1Khz and up with a medium sized horn and a substantial cone driver (s) in either open baffle, reflex or TQWT. The need in a normal sized room for a large multi-way horn is for me not worth the diffculty in getting the thing to sound coherent.
So in my opinion single driver speakers such as Pnoe are incredibly divisive amongst the audiophile community. For example, see the link below from the well known forum by Romy the Cat - clearly no love for the topology at all.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=16144#16144
Yet I have tremendously enjoyed the Pnoes as I know many others I know have. I know Kedar thinks the Dionisio (similar type topology albeit a lot bigger) is right up there - I wish I had heard these too.
For me the “full ranger” back loaded horn topology can transcend almost anything and everything when well executed for some dimensions of sonic reproduction:
>> The speed, integration and transient delivery of the bass in the Pnoe is mind bending on the end of BD4 and 5 drivers. Also there is loads of texture and tone down there.
>> As per a previous post of mine, physics is against the topology in many ways because even in the considerably larger (massive) famous Kleinhorn - it failed to get proper output below 50hz, so Pass made his infamous El Pipo sub woofer solution. To be clear the Kleinhorn is 117” high! Yes not a typo - that is nearly 10 feet high.
https://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf
That being said, I can tell you that with the many original recordings I heard on Pnoe of full scale orchestral, tympani and double basses - it sounded wonderful.
The out and out extension of the Pnoe is limited versus say a dedicated larger woofer solution of course. For my tastes and playing all genres, I think a dedicated bass channel is my preference hence my design decisions. I personally think that for out and out no compromises at all and no room limits, a multi-way with dedicated mid bass AND sub bass channels is where it is at. This clearly needs a healthy budget but a very big room.
Hope this helps!
Sounds like though that this is not an apples to apples comparison as there were significant changes between the two drivers. What I see from Radian, Beyma and others is literally the same driver with a different throat and the smaller throat, at least on paper, is more extended, while going down to about the same lower limit...if that is the case then what is the advantage of the 2 inch throat model?
Hi Bill,
Do you really find the highs from the AER to be that good? To date I have not heard a single driver where I think the highs sound right...except from my Acoustats/Stax full-range electrostatic speakers. All the cones with whizzers sound somewhat tizzy to me, which to me sounds like what is probably happening...the whizzer breaking up. People were raving about the Cube Neuphar and to be fair it has it strengths but the highs to me never sounded right. I have heard the AER at shows and it never sounded special to me compared to say Voxativ, which also has HF issues to my ears.
Do you really find the highs from the AER to be that good? To date I have not heard a single driver where I think the highs sound right...except from my Acoustats/Stax full-range electrostatic speakers. All the cones with whizzers sound somewhat tizzy to me, which to me sounds like what is probably happening...the whizzer breaking up. People were raving about the Cube Neuphar and to be fair it has it strengths but the highs to me never sounded right. I have heard the AER at shows and it never sounded special to me compared to say Voxativ, which also has HF issues to my ears.
Bill, would you be looking, where reasonably no restraints apply, for a multi way incl upper bass and lower bass horns, a proper long basshorn...AND dedicated, seperate sub woofer columns?
For as much bloom and extension from lower mids down with additional bass speed/impact/PRaT?
A six-tower solution (four-tower if you integrate deep basshorn into the main horns tower, OB woofers seperate towers)?
For as much bloom and extension from lower mids down with additional bass speed/impact/PRaT?
A six-tower solution (four-tower if you integrate deep basshorn into the main horns tower, OB woofers seperate towers)?
I agree on that, having heard the Pnoe and the Yamamura, both excellent, BLH have to be real big. The Yams were gigantic, and the had the best flow, transients, tone, nuance, and microshifts I have heard. It also had the maximum goose flesh factor, one that made you shift emotionally with every micro change in note. Awesome linearity through the midbass. Both Pnoe and Yamamura were very specific in what amps had to be used on them. Pietro had access to high end Kondo, Shindo, Audiotekne, but he said only the Yamamura amps worked with his speakers. I would assume part of the reason was why Mayer 46 works on Pnoe - using other amps makes the bass sound out of whack, and you have to use the just the right push in the bass to sync the highs with it, else you can have too much. Also, their excursion is different and not right for rock music. Yamamura had more lower bass extension than the Pnoes but was bigger. The fluidity due to lack of crossover is magical once you hear it.
Other topologies where you cross over to woofers will allow for more flexibility and usage of amps, how low you want to go, and the range of music played.
Other topologies where you cross over to woofers will allow for more flexibility and usage of amps, how low you want to go, and the range of music played.
Excellent, Bill.Hi Chris,
Thanks for the question and they are very pertinent. My response is below:
>> Yes the AER and Lowthers and various other full range 8” drivers will indeed extend to 100hz. In order to faithfully get to 100hz in the horn, the physics is against us. As the horn fc gets lower and lower the horn size including mouth circumference go up a lot. 100hz fc in the Tractrix form equates to circa 1 metre diameter! Of course would have been possible to have a 1 metre horn physically on top of my module although it would look very aesthetically unbalanced and a quite odd. But importantly a horn is a limited bandwidth device in terms of the acoustic loading (and consequent spl gain) you get from employing it. This is the primary reason that many all out assault attempts in the horn world end up 5 way (sometimes even more). The problem is exacerbated more when you start looking into acoustic loading of the driver from the fc point - I can tell you that in my big multi-way design using compression drivers, one can’t load next to the fc smoothly in any area really above the mid bass. The net effect then is one needing even larger horn to accommodate for the crossover point - for example if you had a midrange horn with compression driver that you wanted for 500-1.5k, then a 500fc horn will not have you covered it you wish for loading at 500hz. Hope that makes sense
>> Sonically I tested horns with bigger diameters to allow (2 way) crossover points down to 140hz but the compromise was too much of the delicious top end of the AER gone, which is honestly its r’aison d’etre. Finally, one of my key design criteria for this speaker was to develop something with loads of weight in the mid/upper bass. My view based on listening was that my 4 x 15” bass solution was able to provide that weight and fullness but also the speed. Think of it like an anchor that underpins the entire sonic picture without which one moves to the more skeletal / thread bare type sound. This is obviously personal but it is my taste and view of how I wish to convey the music.
>> Finally since the anchoring of the sound on my design in the mid/upper bass comes from the bass module - having that actively driven also helps me because I get more drive and no horn attenuation needed because I am in control of gain.
Hope this makes sense
Thanks a lot.
It is a horn speaker with OB servo bass section. It doesn't use full range or compression drivers. it is three way with 5 drivers and its horn loads and controls the pattern down to 200hz. Like a danley it loads into a single horn but with a completely different approach, no holes etc. I think there are no horn/drivers combination like this one ever produced.
I have finished and built and tested/measured the prototype. The first pair have also been built and now is being painted and polished (takes three weeks just for that as it has real piano finish for some parts). Then I will take the finished pair to an accredited facility for official tests in an anechoic room to go along with my product. I am also making tests in three different types of rooms to show the common scenarios for room responses. I really do not like companies who does not share any or just a frequency response that has been smoothed out and scaled down. I want to have a combination of them including frequency response, off axis response, phase, impedance, impulse response etc. If all these are good then that speaker will sound right and within reference if the room you have allows it. For taste of people I can not comment. I am just vary of measuring really bad speakers in my friends and fellow enthusiasts houses who are trying to comment on front end equipment or cables while having wildest variations and getting used to a wrong sound.
Hi Brad,
All imo ymmv etc - so I can’t disclose the physics of why the AER treble is so incredible here because I don’t have permission from the master creator, Filip Keller. But I can tell you that they don’t work as one would think - I can ask Filip to see whether he would comment.
But yes the AER BD4 has the most incredible upper range of almost anything I have ever heard. To me it really is their forte. The violin tone and nuance literally penetrates into my soul and induces a lot of emotion. Kedar was the same - indeed it sent him into a spin for a few days where every other word was Chaconne lol.
I also have some Voxativs here albeit the entry ones and they are a long way off this performance level for my taste.
You are most welcome to hear at some point - I will line up a bunch of duets, trios and solo violin for you.
Btw I have no idea if the third video is from his AER days or before (he changed a lot before settling on AER (I also love to mention he changed from big Tidals and Gryphon Mephisto as I hope Rudolf and Lloyd will)) but I posted that video just because I like it
That would be VERY interesting to me as I am big into violin music and I am quite sensitive to how the violins sound in a system. This is largely due to my having an ex-girlfriend who was a top pro violinist (competition winner and concert meisterin in several European orchestras) that I lived with for 4 years. I heard her playing on a violin daily and in practice and concerts. One of the most interesting periods of my life actually and it was amazing that once we had in the apartment a Strad, a Guarneri del Gesu, an Amati and a Guadinini. Heady stuff to hear the real things (and top instruments and bows...almost as important) day in and day out but it left me acutely aware of how unnatural the violin tone (and therefore other instruments) is with most systems (not just the loudspeakers fault for sure).
I might be able to bring some self made recordings of her playing someday when I visit. They are raw but capture the kind of power a single instrument like a Strad can deliver (I recorded practice sessions for a series of concerts where she played all 24 Paganini Caprices from memory in one go...astonishing) on R2R tape.
It is also one of the reasons that I love these old Odeon La Bohemes I use in my main system...I have never heard highs with that kind of realism...they do violin correctly.
So you will produce this commercially then, assuming it goes to plan?
Perhaps a little bit like this?
https://dynamikks.de/Ultima.html
I think this is more of a Danley concept but I guess in that direction, no?
No, nothing like that either, it is not co-entrant to a single horn.
Yes, it will be produced commercially.
The open baffle bass is active and driven by its own servo amps that comes with the speaker. The crossover is active and analog designed by Nelson Pass. It is also possible to choose passive version that will come out later but the bass with either choice is always active servo with its own amp.
I am sorry I took too much space in Bill's thread. Pretty soon I will share details in its own thread.
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