Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[Zero000]

With Duettas, the MRT ribbon, which handles mid and high frequency, when configured by the crossover to run measurably flat, delivers HF in a manner that is simply astonishing. Literally, beyond the resolution of anything I have ever heard. The flip side with this degree of apparent over-resolution i.e. literally too much detail/information, is that it is hard to live with for any amount of time.

The way crossovers are configured to run with regards to HF handling is absolutely critical. Some degree of in-built roll-off is absolutely necessary to deliver a liveable with loudspeaker. Any degree of x-over mid-range emphasis is also abundantly apparent.

For that reason, x-overs are best configured with a combination of a test mic and the human ear.

I am not certain how Henk has his Grand's configured. He may prefer a very rolled off HF (the 5DB lift thing is hard to understand if that is the case, though). Alternatively, if he is an older chap he may not be sensitive to information beyond 12KHz anyway.

 

[bonzo75]

The thing is the HF is cuztomizable easy. That said, what happens with Hank's Apogees is because the grands are like a FR being raised and placed on the woofer, that causes a big height difference to your ear if you are sitting. I heard most of my music standing up. Henk's room has a lot of place to move and I just wandered around and then stood mostly in one spot, maybe that's why I did not notice anything. I recall Henk mentioning something to this context, will confirm with him again. And the FR, because it is not on the woofer, has the right height. He also mentioned that because the Scintillas are short, he actually raises them on to a platform.

 

[Zero000]

Yup could be a dispersion thing. DDK was on about the lifted design i.e. ribbons on top of the woofers meaning the ribbons were too high relative to a seat - as you said and as I have thought. One thing against that is that the HF ribbon is in the same vertical space and length as the mid AFAIK.

Who knows for sure without getting a test mic in there and grilling Henk for what he knows.

With a high seat and some x-over tuning... the would be no issues WRT treble output I expect.

 

[FrantzM]

Ribbons are supposed to be line sources... Seat ehight shouldn't matter ... in principle. I didn't remember this problem from the Apogee Grand the last time I heard these ( decades ago ). Perhaps the speaker need to be tilted down for a more to-taste image vertical position.

 

[RBFC]

The ribbons do have very limited vertical dispersion, so taste may dictate seat height & speaker tilt.

Lee

 

[Ron Resnick]

Here are the other photos I took during the visit, but which I could not post on my first post.



re-built Duetta (perfectly finished and painted)





beautiful new Full Range cross-over





outboard amplifiers in use

 

[Zero000]

Bruce the 0.2 impedance was for the scintilla which was the toughest to drive off the apogees. The divas and duettas dive down to 3 at worst.

These would sound much better than the original, btw.

Hm not necessarily true. It varies depending on configs i.e. pure foil setups in Divas and Duettas etc. An ML panel has stupidly low impedance at high HF, and very varying impedance elsewhere, none of which is too relevant as long as you can get your system to sound great somehow.

 

[bonzo75]

Hm not necessarily true. It varies depending on configs i.e. pure foil setups in Divas and Duettas etc. An ML panel has stupidly low impedance at high HF, and very varying impedance elsewhere, none of which is too relevant as long as you can get your system to sound great somehow.

There is no pure foil in diva or duetta. You could ask for it but doubt anyone will do it.

 

[Zero000]

Anyway, Ron, I am glad you have heard what an Apogee bass panel can do - at least to 70 Hz!!!. I feel Full Range is the one to really explore an all ribbon set up and its true capabilities but alas I haven't made the effort to go there and find out.

In a sense that is what I really don't like about the Grand. It is a betrayal of all ribbon purism!!! Though of course as the bass panel is supported on all four sides it isn't actually a ribbon. But you know what I mean.

The drum track to explore all ribbon bass and dynamics including way below 70 Hz is Jim Keltner's Usher Test Disc track Improvisation. I played it to Kedar on my lowly Duettas so he knows what I mean.

WARNING: there is a horrendous version of this on TIDAL off a Sheffiled disc of some description. It is useless and ruined. The Usher disc is the one.

 

[bonzo75]

Anyway, Ron, I am glad you have heard what an Apogee bass panel can do - at least to 70 Hz!!!. I feel Full Range is the one to really explore an all ribbon set up and its true capabilities but alas I haven't made the effort to go there and find out.

In a sense that is what I really don't like about the Grand. It is a betrayal of all ribbon purism!!! Though of course as the bass panel is supported on all four sides it isn't actually a ribbon. But you know what I mean.

The drum track to explore all ribbon bass and dynamics including way below 70 Hz is Jim Keltner's Usher Test Disc track Improvisation. I played it to Kedar on my lowly Duettas so he knows what I mean.

Yeah. The bass and dynamic excitement from any apogee, even the duettas, is the best. There isn't much difference in FR and Grand IMO. If you leave a FR in Henk's room for 8 years it might sound better than his Grand, but currently it's the Grand that's been in his room for 8 years, so it sounds better. That said Grand was a much later design, and the ribbon was better so he has changed only the bass ribbon and left the mids untouched. With FR both are Graz.

 

[Zero000]

There is no pure foil in diva or duetta. You could ask for it but doubt anyone will do it.

That is today's policy. There are pure foil Duettas and Divas.

 

[es347]

Here are the other photos I took during the visit, but which I could not post on my first post.



re-built Duetta (perfectly finished and painted)

View attachment 27992



beautiful new Full Range cross-over

View attachment 27993



outboard amplifiers in use

View attachment 27994

..nice!

 

[ddk]

He is using Plinius only on the bass panel.

Bass panels are extremely important to the over all sound of the Apogees as an aside those Stax amps are also no great shake, also dark sounding. Leaving the coherence and height issues aside Ron's observations are exactly what I thought should have been with this setup. This is a system put together more with budget concerns than maximum fidelity so there are going to be compromises.

david

 

[Argonaut]

At the risk of introducing filthy commerce into such an Apogee Hedonism, Might we be instructed as to the Iron Price for such audiophile exotica ?

 

[bonzo75]

At the risk of introducing filthy commerce into such an Apogee Hedonism, Might we be instructed as to the Iron Price for such audiophile exotica ?

80k euro for the grand, but only 17.5 for the FR. With grand you are also paying for the exotica and fine tuning. Fyi, when the grand was made the divas were 9k USD and grands 85k, then the costliest speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

Bass panels are extremely important to the over all sound of the Apogees as an aside those Stax amps are also no great shake, also dark sounding. Leaving the coherence and height issues aside Ron's observations are exactly what I thought should have been with this setup. This is a system put together more with budget concerns than maximum fidelity so there are going to be compromises.

david

This Stax have been completely refurbed by Henk.

 

[ddk]

This Stax have been completely refurbed by Henk.

And so what? They're now magically transformed by changing out a few parts?

david

 

[bonzo75]

Not sure, but there is magic in that room. My guess is 99 percent of that is the speakers, hence I love them so

 

[Argonaut]

80k euro for the grand, but only 17.5 for the FR. With grand you are also paying for the exotica and fine tuning. Fyi, when the grand was made the divas were 9k USD and grands 85k, then the costliest speaker.

In which case, and for my part, I consider a pair of re-built FR's to be quite exceptional value! Just as long as that slight propensity, high db hot zing, has been ameliorated by the re build, which, from Ron's OP it sounds as tho it has.

 

[bonzo75]

There is no denying that's the best value and the best speaker imo, but problem is the room required puts it out of budget. One might need to put aside 2k to fly Henk over a few times to fine tune. Use spectral dma 300 biamping, or if you don't want to spend initially on amps, just McCormack or Bryston till one is ready to upgrade