Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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What's wrong with the Euro Star! The manufacturers that you mention do not compute
Use air for Europe. You can fly dirt cheap without planning. In fact I will revisit Henk to listen to the duettas. 1 hour to Schipol. Eurostar is cheap only if you book well ahead of time, like planning for holidays.
Ribbons are supposed to be line sources... Seat ehight shouldn't matter ... in principle. I didn't remember this problem from the Apogee Grand the last time I heard these ( decades ago
I was involved with helping one of my customers (many years ago ) install a pair of GRANDS, and they are indeed a challenge to set up and get dialed in. Many variables, however one does need a substantial room to be able to get the tweeter ribbon to blend (these speakers are not suitable for somewhat near field listening) and the fact the speaker is sitting on top of the woofer box, which elevates it to far off the floor, does require somewhat of a downward tilt and possibly running the tweerter ribbon a little "hotter"', to get a uniform spectrum from top to bottom. Otherwise they can sound as Ron heard them (somewhat dark and closed in).
Cheers , T
PS:Sorry for the poor pic quality....taken many years ago and with a Poloroid camera no less..-
Henk IS brilliant.
Just handling and moving a Duetta around is a major pain in the arse. Full Range and Grand must be and are beyond ridiculous in that sense. Jon Oakey won't touch either and I do not blame him.
The world should be grateful for such people. What and incredible enthusiast and he should be recognised as such, along with Graz.
People like this realise and get results. They actually put some effort in.
Just handling and moving a Duetta around is a major pain in the arse. Full Range and Grand must be and are beyond ridiculous in that sense. Jon Oakey won't touch either and I do not blame him.
The world should be grateful for such people. What and incredible enthusiast and he should be recognised as such, along with Graz.
People like this realise and get results. They actually put some effort in.
+1000 for Jason, Graz and Henk...btw, if anyone goes up to Henk, he lives like a Hermit, just him and his apogees. All he wants from you is a bottle of whisky. His floor is loaded with whisky bottles.
Great thread and write up, Ron. There has been some mention of the panels sitting on top of the cone woofer box. Is there much cabinet vibration from that box? I would think that that could adversely effect the panel's frame.
When one says that these Grands need space, how large a room is recommended?
When one says that these Grands need space, how large a room is recommended?
Minimum 7m, if not more. I would prefer 5 to 6m from the panel at least, and the panel at least 2m from the wall with diffusors behind the panel. Henk did mention that if you have diffusors in a smaller room, then it will create comb filters, so the listening seat needs to be at a distance from the panel. I would say 5m width at least. The bigger the better, as they can form a grand soundstage, ideal for orchestras. The Full Ranges I heard were 4m from the front wall, 6m to the listener, with 4m behind the listener. That long is not normally required. It was a room only 4m wide though. The bass waves on Mahler 2 going up and down the room were itself worth buying the speaker and the room for.
Thanks Bonzo. My limited experience with panel speakers is that one needs a lot of space for integration. Same with the horn systems I've heard. In terms of transparency, dynamics, and naturalism (realism), how would you describe the Apogees compared to the better horn systems you have heard? And could you summarize the basic differences in sound, if that is even possible?
I wonder what a pair of Full Ranges (well driven by 'endless power') plus dual subs (well crossed over) would be capable of. All-out state of the art nuance, detail, staging, midrange density, alacrity and wallop/power? And would these dual subs need to be dual sub-towers, which is what Ron Resnick has been contemplating for some time now?
So, my lowest budget giant killer system would be panels - Acoustats or such - then, horns all the way, but only full range horns - trios with bass horns, animas, WE 16A, each one sounds different. I am not yet a big fan of the medium range Apogee Duetta and Divas, possibly because I have not heard a good Diva yet. But above all speakers, horn or whatever, I place the FR and the Grands. They are just the most dynamically exciting, bassy and ballsy, superb lush ribbon tone, with great mid bass for baritone, dense soprano vocals, listen to them pound out Mahler's explosive bass and then caress the softer parts of his woodwinds...I could go on. They are also brilliant on electronica and rock. Downsides are you need a big room, and I would guess a straight front wall so panels can be parallel to the wall.
With horns like trios, you need a big room, but much smaller than Apogee FR/grands - 4.5m * 6m should suffice, though it does get better as it gets bigger. Horns are more fit and forget, and sound great with a variety of amplifiers, and some can be enjoyed at lower volumes. Both Apogees and horns are very fast, cones seem sluggish in comparison. The Trios too have great bass and dynamics, where they come second in my book to the big apogees is tone. Given room and money, I would have Apogee FRs firing down the room and a Western Electric 16A on the long wall. My excitement on the Grands can be sensed from here http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...apogee-grands!&p=390547&viewfull=1#post390547
For a more practical room size, I would recommend the hORNS Universum - ideal for classical, put a nice TT through a low watt SET and spin away.
Your listening style matters between choosing horns and apogees - some horns can be played more at lower volumes, and have good off axis. Apogees need to be played louder, better on axis.
To answer your specific question - both are natural, Apogees a bit more, and it is tough to generalize horns as each is different. Trios have great orchestral dynamics, imaging, wall to ceiling soundstage, like apogee. Animas have some weird texture that just makes those who like it fall in love. The ones I linked above are more Quad like - transparent and neutral, more dynamic and bassy than quads but less than trios. Acapellas have a transparent midrange, I think Ron will like them. Cessaros are totally different to all the above. And I have heard Magico Ultimates, though at a show, and Vox Olympians.
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Peter, this postscript by Ron in his first post is also key to the Apogees. I also got something similar on Holst's Planets (Mars). "Postscript: I visited Steve today to catch up with I'm before I go back to London. I brought with me a CD of the Genesis album with the “Drum Duet” track -- with Phil Collins playing the drum kit on the left side of the stage and his colleague playing a drum kit on the right side of the stage. (Henk very kindly gave me his CD of that album.)
When the track was finished at Henk’s place my wife and I turned to each other and each of us basically said “Oh my God, that was amazing!” So I was really curious to hear this drum track on Steve’s very full-range and bass capable system. (Steve supplements his big Wilsons with JL Audio Fathoms.)
On Steve’s system the drum track today was very good but it was not involving and mesmerizing like it was on Henk’s system. Listening to the drums on the Grands seemed to my wife and me like an experience.
This is absolutely no criticism of Steve’s system. As I have written many times I love the sound from Steve’s system. I am very confident what I heard from this track on the Grands versus on conventional cones means that Kedar was correct about the amazing bass reproduction on the Grands: the woofer panel on the Grands -- which covers about 70 Hz to about 250 Hz -- is the best reproducer of that frequency range I have ever heard in my life. I do not think any dynamic driver speaker -- not Wilsons, not Genesis woofer towers, not Pendragon woofer towers, not any set of cones -- is going to reproduce 70 Hz or so to 250 Hz or so with the articulation and realism and power of those big, trapezoidal woofer panels on the Grands."
When the track was finished at Henk’s place my wife and I turned to each other and each of us basically said “Oh my God, that was amazing!” So I was really curious to hear this drum track on Steve’s very full-range and bass capable system. (Steve supplements his big Wilsons with JL Audio Fathoms.)
On Steve’s system the drum track today was very good but it was not involving and mesmerizing like it was on Henk’s system. Listening to the drums on the Grands seemed to my wife and me like an experience.
This is absolutely no criticism of Steve’s system. As I have written many times I love the sound from Steve’s system. I am very confident what I heard from this track on the Grands versus on conventional cones means that Kedar was correct about the amazing bass reproduction on the Grands: the woofer panel on the Grands -- which covers about 70 Hz to about 250 Hz -- is the best reproducer of that frequency range I have ever heard in my life. I do not think any dynamic driver speaker -- not Wilsons, not Genesis woofer towers, not Pendragon woofer towers, not any set of cones -- is going to reproduce 70 Hz or so to 250 Hz or so with the articulation and realism and power of those big, trapezoidal woofer panels on the Grands."
Peter, that's a curious question to ask, IMO. The scale of the presentation is a function of the recording, and never should be related to the components of a system. Of course, many systems make everything seem small, which is a defect of the setup - and, on the other hand, if a "speaker" always makes everything 'big' then the sound picture is just as faulty. On a manipulated recording one should be able to hear the different sizes of the sound elements - if the vocals were done in a small sound booth, against the backdrop of a large orchestral space then this should be quite obvious, and clearly rendered ...
Peter, I lived with Apogees & various horns now for nearly 3 decades, the Apogees and many horn systems including giant theater horns scale instruments accurately and according to their size, if the rest of the system is also accurate!
david
David and Bonzo, thank you for your responses. I was curious because I have never heard the Apogees and very few horn systems. I have heard quite a few large dynamic cone speaker systems that tended to make everything sound large, including voices and solo instruments. They sounded great for large scale orchestral works, but unconvincing for smaller scale music.
I understand your point that if everything is working properly, scale should be accurately reproduced, regardless of the musical material or size and type of speaker system.
I understand your point that if everything is working properly, scale should be accurately reproduced, regardless of the musical material or size and type of speaker system.
I don't have the room for large orchestral music nor is it my favorite, I listen to mostly smaller scale classical and jazz with a passion for solo instrumental works I wouldn't be able to live with magnifying everything system, you lose the nuances and the beauty of small scale music with that kind of impressive sound.
david
I did not put my hand on the cone woofer box while music was playing. I can tell you that the frame above the box containing the ribbons weighs about 250 pounds.
But I agree with the implication of your question: All else being equal I prefer a design where big cones are physically separated from the other drivers (Genesis 1.x and 2.x, Gryphon Pendragon and Kodo, EA MM7, MBL X-Treme, AG Trios with Basshorns, etc.).
Hi bonzo,
Sonically, should we think of the Full Range as sounding the same as the Grand minus below 40 Hz support from the 12" cones? (If you turned off the cones on the Grand would the FR sound the same as the Grand?)
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